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[John Porno]

so jotisz, when was the last time you played a bg in reno?

[Jotisz]

And when the npc tries to "make" the player to step back, he bursts the whole town.
In many situations players just have to stand next to npc for a while.
Think about it like this: if tc towns and reno were made to have pvp in them why should there be features that hinder the pvp activity? Don't let npc mess with players in situations where players don't want to mess with npc.

The player must stand next to npc for a while I don't get what situation would be like that beside when someone goes for getting the burst or nade to hit the npcs. Well maybe stealing would go here too but it wouldn't be impossible to do. I mean its already quite easy to steal ammo from some patrols even without being part of their groups.
Anyway making them into some non reacting scenery that stays in one place and give no reaction for getting shot is surely not an idea I like.
I liked what naossano wrote and I think making them into some scenery that is just there is a wrong thing to do.

so jotisz, when was the last time you played a bg in reno?

I only played burster chars in Reno this season. Though I got to admit that the last time I was in Reno to fight was weeks ago.

[naossano]

If someone wanted to kill her and keep her that way, it's possible even now. But nobody does it. Problem is not that people want key/random npcs dead in unsafe towns, but that they do it accidentally.

The fact that they keep doing it allow me to think that the consequences are too low to be taken into account by these players. If the consequences would be harsher, they wouldn't do it, or be more cautious.

In terms of gameplay, they tends to be considered as object, but in universe, they are real people. If you shoot real people, there should be consequences. You can't just say "i bursted your little child by mistake, so piss off". They shouldn't be concerned if strangers (players) shoot each other (except in some cities), but they should certainly be pissed off if you shoot their familly, co-workers, neighbours... even by mistake, it doesn't excuse for the killing or deep injuries. Even in term of pvp the environnement should be more active in the process. Better have npc who do their part, and impact in the battlefield, than almost invisible object, that happen to look like people...

[avv]

The player must stand next to npc for a while I don't get what situation would be like that beside when someone goes for getting the burst or nade to hit the npcs.

You honestly can't think of any? Dude, if you don't know about the subject completely maybe you shouldn't talk about it.

Some rooms for example are so small that you simply can't avoid being next to npc.
Sometimes you have to have a team formation that involves spreading out and standing next to npcs.
Occasionally standing next to npc for a while is sneak's only way to be safe, I'd facepalm hard if this npc got mad at my sneak, desneaked it and made me die because I stood next to it.

Do you even know why the safety zone for npcs was added? So that players couldn't onehex, steal or plant explosives on the encounter npcs so easily. Unsafe town npcs do not hand out loot, so they don't need such protection.

Anyway making them into some non reacting scenery that stays in one place and give no reaction for getting shot is surely not an idea I like.

You don't like it why? You said yourself you were in reno one week ago, I was there yesterday. So how can the unresponsive npcs bother you if you are not involved with them?

I liked what naossano wrote and I think making them into some scenery that is just there is a wrong thing to do.

They could just run for their life as far as they can when players with intimidating gear appear. That's what players who want to live do too.

[falloutdude]

they just get in the way and run around and get in the way. remove them or nerf them its really annoying.

[Jotisz]

Every map has at least 1-2 part where you can get yourself barricaded and cover all place you need. Call me cheap but I prefer doing that instead of using fancy formations that are useful only when the numbers in difference isn't so big.
About spreading out most look out positions are away from NPCs too.
About sneaker going next to NPC to resneak ever though of going behind a wall?
As I said during fights the only reason I stand next to NPCs is when I wasn't in the place for PvP and want to make my unavoidable defeat a harder thing.

Do you even know why the safety zone for npcs was added? So that players couldn't onehex, steal or plant explosives on the encounter npcs so easily. Unsafe town npcs do not hand out loot, so they don't need such protection.

Seems you don't really check on NPCs some of them do and have loot I won't say good stuffs but they still have items on themselves.

You don't like it why? You said yourself you were in reno one week ago, I was there yesterday. So how can the unresponsive npcs bother you if you are not involved with them?

The fact I wasn't there lately doesn't mean I won't be bothering myself to go there.
What you said here is like saying to someone who is living abroad for work to not vote on election since he is not involved anymore.

They could just run for their life as far as they can when players with intimidating gear appear. That's what players who want to live do too.

Running away is done by mostly newer players. Old players who meet a fully geared guy know that running away is useless (tactical retreat is different so I don't mention that). They do fast relog or something similar if they care of what happening or do something fun if they don't care like when I was standing next to a brahmin pen with a shovel just to see how long it takes till someone tries to kill me well didn't had to wait much some guys appeared and one with minigun started running toward me. Instead of running away I hit that minigunner guy with the shovel.

On a closing up everyone tries to shut up people with "the Wasteland is harsh" sentence but anytime something that would make the place harsh is suggested people go against it saying it just makes things harder or promote alting... etc. I don't know but the game isn't harsh a bit hard sometimes but not harsh.
Harsh would be if choices would have greater consequences right now massacring a whole town (unguarded) has a consequence that is nothing.

[John Porno]

it's obvious that jotisz speaks for one single guy, trolling reno while avv speaks for all the actual gangs that do organized pvp in reno.

Now I do understand that npc's make the town seem less dead and are important for immersion, but that's the only thing. Now I wonder what kind of immersion it is if you use these npc's as meatshields in order to fuck with a pvp player that is tired of all these bluesuit trolls in reno all day.

The real issue of the npc's is that it's almost impossible not to hit them sooner or later. Even Snipers can hit them if they shoot some high AC guy and oops-miss. Once you have aggroed all the npc's you can basically say goodbye to reno actions on this character as you automatically alert the enemy as he sees npc's running or you can't move to grids/sewers due to combat timer or you have to kill them all, wasting ammo, time and alerting the enemy even further.

Now there already is this thing implemented that sometimes npc's run away from you and that would be the best way to solve this problem. I dont see how anyone can disagree with having the towns people run away if someone who has killed them enters the town, other than using the npc's for trolling which can not seriously be the devs intention.

[Kool-Aid]

I love it that when it comes to improving PVP in a town that is mostly, if not exclusively used as a PVP Deathmatch arena, some RP/PVE carebears of the anti-PVP fraction come with RP arguments. As if they were asked?
Keep the rats in sewers and leave them aggro don't care that people might use the sewers only for a shortcut or detour, buff the NPCs in town so that PVPers start taking them into account instead of focusing on living gameplay with living players.... ffs .
People, Reno ain't a goddamn Roleplay stage, it's THE place for PVPers. If you don't like it, well, your problem.
After all this is still a game and it can never be somewhere near reality, so be so kindly and bugger off with your "this is realistic, this is not" way of thinking. Putting realism over good gameplay is a good way of showing that you are an ignorant mofo who puts his ass first and doesn't care about the general community.

But if you want the game to be so realistic think twice about what you are suggesting. To be fuckin honest, if somebody in a freakin' body armor armed with a Gatling gun popped out of nowhere and happily tore up someone on my side into pieces, I wouldn't rush to him with bare fists for vengeance by trying to punch him dead. I'd be either be stunned by shock or grief, or run for my pooper. Also I wouldn't fucking want to live in a town where some crazed psychos like to tear each other into parts, so removing the NPC's or limiting them to indoors only is legit. Can't agree with me ? Please go live into a warzone in africa then and try punching terrorists with fists.

Don't come up with PVE matters either, If people really want to PVE, there are plenty other better possibilities out there. Like the glow. I don't want to fight shitty boring NPCs without valuable loot in reno when I come there for PVP action. Or buggering with other PVE mechanics that keep me from enjoying PVP.

Just quit this silly talk about what's realistic and what's not. We have towns and places here for every liking, some people yearn to have their wishes and play style accepted, how about you start accepting other one's first?  Here's enough space for everybody don't force your will upon others. How about we ourselves do the same and suggest removing all those features that provide you with means of RPing and keeping the game as real/RPish as possible ? I for myself vote to remove all guards from all cities to turn this whole game into a PK madness arena. Crazy bloody wasteland adventures, now that's the wasteland I dream of and surely a nice place to RP .

[Jotisz]

How about we ourselves do the same and suggest removing all those features that provide you with means of RPing and keeping the game as real/RPish as possible ? I for myself vote to remove all guards from all cities to turn this whole game into a PK madness arena. Crazy bloody wasteland adventures, now that's the wasteland I dream of and surely a nice place to RP .

About removing skills and stats I don't think that would do any good an isometric shooter is hardly anything like fallout. Though I may have misunderstand you and you want to remove things that only have saying in RP since skills and stats do have a point in PvP too. In that case I have to say that even without quests RP would be still possible tough having those quest going to waste would be sad. The removal of ooc and emotion talk color wouldn't be a big deal though since players can just type **drinks beer** and its done. On the subject of removing all guards well what shell I say please no? You may be surprised but I would say lets remove them. However there is one thing that would be needed to removed along with NPC guards its called respawn it should be removed too.

[avv]

Seems you don't really check on NPCs some of them do and have loot I won't say good stuffs but they still have items on themselves.

So because of this pitiful loot the npcs have, they need to have a safety zone to prevent players from stealing it? First of all, the npcs exist in unsafe zone where you can get killed right away. So that kind of balances the problem already. And how can you even begin to think that some nuka, jet, fruits or brock flowers from unsafe town npcs are going to be somekind of problem in first place?

About sneaker going next to NPC to resneak ever though of going behind a wall?

What I meant was: sometimes it's the only chance not to be detected is to stand next to an npc when playing a sneak. It might take just 8 seconds to stand next to that npc and then it'd be possible to move again. But if this npc suddenly got mad and desneaked the sneak by punching, the sneak would die.

The fact I wasn't there lately doesn't mean I won't be bothering myself to go there.
What you said here is like saying to someone who is living abroad for work to not vote on election since he is not involved anymore.

This isn't politics but science. That means people with experience need to have their voices heard, not everyone equally like in politics.

[naossano]

I love it that when it comes to improving PVP in a town that is mostly, if not exclusively used as a PVP Deathmatch arena, some RP/PVE carebears of the anti-PVP fraction come with RP arguments. As if they were asked?

The only area for PVP only is hinkley.
Plus, the environnement doesn't negate the PVP. It improves it when it is more immersive and reactive.
Now, the environnement is close to be nullified...