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Real Fallout or Paradise?

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Johnnybravo:
You replace tyranny of man with tyranny of money. Democracy is wrong, if people are supposed to rule using elected representatives, all it takes is veil of lies to turn it into oligarchic society. And what worse democracy allows all of this to happen without people having chance to realize that.

Though rule of one man or party is no better, actually the difference is that they don't even have to hide their interests, making it much easier to ruin life for everyone else. In my opinion the solution lies within the evolution of mankind and not in some system that can never eliminate problems coming from the nature of the man.

As for the vid, I quit it in the mid, as most of it sound like some kind of conspiration theory.

Nice_Boat:
Every political system deteriorates and erodes over time because the people and institutions running the show want to have more power. Doesn't have to be malicious, it's the same with bureaucracy - people working as bureaucrats identify with their institution more than with the society in general and consequently work for the "benefit" of said institution expanding its influence (and the level of bureaucracy in general). This process can be slowed down via constitutional checks and balances and, generally speaking, good laws - but since societies change and evolve, it's pretty hard to predict everything that could go wrong. Sadly, I believe that Thomas Jefferson was spot on right when he said that "the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." In my opinion it speaks volumes about the nature of our societies and species in general. I think that we could agree that while democracy surely isn't perfect, it doesn't require this kind maintenance as often as, say, dictatorships.

Mr Feltzer:
Democracy is shit, but Its still better than any other form of Governmental system ( communism, monarch, tyranny ect )

Wiktor_pl:
Well, maybe because i wish so much the world would be better i get a little too excited about that whole idea at start, but cold reflecsion about the subject made me feel that we're really far away from that kind of social system, if its not beyond our reach.

      How the guys said in film, its all because we've raised in society based on competition, and you have to compete to achieve something in your life. Competition means you need to win your fights with others on many leves of your life to get food, stuff you need, place to live etc. That means that you have to be better than others, but you can do it by developing yourself or by , but that also means that you can stay the same if people you fight will get worse. They made some researches and from their researches it occures that people dont want money or power - they want things that comes after it, like luxury, wellbeing etc. (sorry for my english).

      You see, the main idea of that project is to make everybody wealth (it means, wealth in various goods they demand) by using technology which suppose to eliminate greed, abuse, slavery(in many ways we got it these times). If everyone got they demands fulfilled, they wont be needing to have powers over other people. Of course, it sounds like dream, but its dream i could believe in, i'm not naive though, dont think, i know how people are these days. It wont be able to make it for long long time, but the key is good education of young people so they can understand this planet is for everyone and raising them in culture of respect for others. Thats the first step, and maybe in long future we will succeed.

      The idea is to not give this kind of governmental system by strenght, but make people willing it.
      About communism: Of course i dont forget about humanity last falses, I know that it didnt worked out in XX century, but look now - we got way to communicate with whole world, we can travel almost everywhere in one day. Technology changes a lot imo, and educated people arent easy to manipulate. Educated and well raised people makes that kind of society in XX(?)century possible (dont know which century, though).

     About democracy: Its not that good as you say. Lot of corruption in the governments caused by politicians greed makes this wheel going to crush. Also, world global debt is raising in great speed because of borrows - and countries can only borrow more money from banks, which will result in that situation in near future: bankers will have most of the money, people will not be able to buy anythings and we will start barter again. Good look with barter trade in our times... :sick:

     Oh, and i almost forgot to say: Ok, you can say that human history says: "we're always fighting and competing" but i think its wrong to say that this is human nature or nature of the mankind. Humanity is beyond instincts from when they aquired the knowledge how to make fire, and of course, we're part of the nature and instincts and feelings are the important part of every one of us (except sociopaths, thats about feelings :D), but who would not like to live in wealth? Like the guy in film said, we're under huge influence of the culture we're raising in. And there are a really lot of people on the world who are a good people and would like to help ones who didnt had the luck of born in wealth countries like we and i dont think they would mind spend the time on togheters work to make world better.
    Also, the first thing the guy in the film said is that it cant work till everyone is satisfied with the goods they got - otherwise we will be still fighting each other for goods.

Nice_Boat:

--- Quote from: Wiktor_pl on July 10, 2012, 01:36:21 pm ---How the guys said in film, its all because we've raised in society based on competition, and you have to compete to achieve something in your life. Competition means you need to win your fights with others on many leves of your life to get food, stuff you need, place to live etc. That means that you have to be better than others, but you can do it by developing yourself or by , but that also means that you can stay the same if people you fight will get worse.

--- End quote ---
That's how nature works, if we didn't compete we wouldn't advance our technology and societies. Just think about how different civilizations fared across history... some had very tight caste systems and they always were dominated or sidetracked by civilizations with more emphasis on individualism, flexibility and, yes - competition. I mean Western civilization tended to judge people based on merits and skills after the enlightenment period - and it turned out dominating the entire globe for centuries. It took 100 years of socialist experimentation to weaken this hold enough to let nations like China and India into competition - and even then they're still far behind.


--- Quote from: Wiktor_pl on July 10, 2012, 01:36:21 pm ---They made some researches and from their researches it occures that people dont want money or power - they want things that comes after it, like luxury, wellbeing etc. (sorry for my english).

--- End quote ---
One of the most basic principles of economy is that people have infinite needs and wants in the world of limited resources and supplies. Money is the most convenient way of exchanging what we can produce for what we need, so doing away with that would actually take us a long way back. As for power, not everyone prioritizes it but there's a lot of people who do and who take great satisfaction in pursuing it - we're social animals after all. Besides - what is luxury? Does this term hold the same meaning for a CEO of a large Western company and a poor farmer somewhere in Somalia? Of course not, but if you put the farmer in the CEOs shoes he's going to crave more. Limited resources, infinite needs.


--- Quote from: Wiktor_pl on July 10, 2012, 01:36:21 pm ---You see, the main idea of that project is to make everybody wealth (it means, wealth in various goods they demand) by using technology which suppose to eliminate greed, abuse, slavery(in many ways we got it these times). If everyone got they demands fulfilled, they wont be needing to have powers over other people. Of course, it sounds like dream, but its dream i could believe in, i'm not naive though, dont think, i know how people are these days. It wont be able to make it for long long time, but the key is good education of young people so they can understand this planet is for everyone and raising them in culture of respect for others. Thats the first step, and maybe in long future we will succeed.

--- End quote ---
The only way technology could eliminate social struggles caused by wealth basically invalidating our current economic models would be if we somehow managed to produce stuff out of thin air. But then we wouldn't need any hippie projects, we'd basically be gods traveling through space and molding entire solar systems to our whims.... and probably we'd still engage in some sort of power struggles to create some sort of social order.


--- Quote from: Wiktor_pl on July 10, 2012, 01:36:21 pm ---The idea is to not give this kind of governmental system by strenght, but make people willing it.

--- End quote ---
You can't have a functional government without it using strength. Basically, every government exists only because it has the capacity for violence against people who dislike the social order it creates. That's why utopias where everyone exists solely within the system and is heavily controlled are so dangerous - they give government so much power that even when the government turns against the people the people are unable to fight back and overthrow it. The sad thing about technology is the fact that when used for the wrong reasons it can empower such a government in unprecedented ways, so our fate for the next few hundreds of years might actually be living in a hi-tech Gulag.


--- Quote from: Wiktor_pl on July 10, 2012, 01:36:21 pm ---About communism: Of course i dont forget about humanity last falses, I know that it didnt worked out in XX century, but look now - we got way to communicate with whole world, we can travel almost everywhere in one day. Technology changes a lot imo, and educated people arent easy to manipulate. Educated and well raised people makes that kind of society in XX(?)century possible (dont know which century, though).

--- End quote ---
The problem is educated society was supposed to make democracy work without flaws and it didn't work out even though democracy offers much more room for free thought when compared to more collectivist systems. The problem is some people seem to be inherently dumb while a lot of the others simply don't give a fuck and are concerned only about their immediate surroundings and well-being. I'm sorry, but Plato's city of philosophers is never going to be built - and even if it was, it'd be a nightmare.


--- Quote from: Wiktor_pl on July 10, 2012, 01:36:21 pm ---     About democracy: Its not that good as you say. Lot of corruption in the governments caused by politicians greed makes this wheel going to crush. Also, world global debt is raising in great speed because of borrows - and countries can only borrow more money from banks, which will result in that situation in near future: bankers will have most of the money, people will not be able to buy anythings and we will start barter again. Good look with barter trade in our times... :sick:

--- End quote ---
Yeah, it most probably is going to crash just like ancient Rome and Greece crashed. Then we're going to have a lot of turmoil and shitty government systems until people rediscover the simple fact that being free and able to rise up to your whole potential was not that bad of an idea after all. Then we're going to enjoy a period of prosperity for some time until the system deteriorates to the point it's going to crash again. It seems this is how this world rolls.


--- Quote from: Wiktor_pl on July 10, 2012, 01:36:21 pm ---     Oh, and i almost forgot to say: Ok, you can say that human history says: "we're always fighting and competing" but i think its wrong to say that this is human nature or nature of the mankind. Humanity is beyond instincts from when they aquired the knowledge how to make fire, and of course, we're part of the nature and instincts and feelings are the important part of every one of us (except sociopaths, thats about feelings :D), but who would not like to live in wealth? Like the guy in film said, we're under huge influence of the culture we're raising in. And there are a really lot of people on the world who are a good people and would like to help ones who didnt had the luck of born in wealth countries like we and i dont think they would mind spend the time on togheters work to make world better.
    Also, the first thing the guy in the film said is that it cant work till everyone is satisfied with the goods they got - otherwise we will be still fighting each other for goods.

--- End quote ---
That's basically impossible and the reason I believe it's just some dangerous ramblings of a slightly crazed old hippie.

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