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fonline is not user friendly i guess:,(

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DeputyDope:

--- Quote from: hungaryman on May 18, 2012, 07:22:41 pm ---Thank you so much, Enzo ;)

--- End quote ---

you don't really need to visit that link. just go to the homepage of the forum and scroll down.

Malice Song:

--- Quote from: avv on May 18, 2012, 07:20:20 pm ---But it's not smart. It's not reasonable in terms of mechanics. Making a hybrid character is like using an underpowered gun in fps game or doing intentionally stupid strategies in rts. When you get a royal flush in poker, do you keep it or scramble it for the sake of it?
My point here is that the mechanics and fun don't go hand to hand. Fun is slow and ineffective, and not even fun for all (apes, powergamers). Effective is boring and repetitive. When the most effective and fun meet, you have a good feature.

There's no point discussion hybrid vs alts.

--- End quote ---

I pretty much completely agree. Thing is, I don't think there's a predetermined sweet spot for fun vs efficiency, but it depends on the goals and expectations of the individual player and how much efficiency they can realistically sacrifice. For example, I think Hybrids can be completely viable for players interested in PvE or even highly preferable for those interested in player interactions. I won't doubt, though, that every point not allocated to the main purpose of a build will put it at a severe disadvantage in PvP or any form of competitive function in general.

The whole point I brought that up was to state that both facets exist when it comes to new players and any advice or information on that topic is a bit more flexible and somewhat dependant on that player's goals and expectations, just so we don't get too sidetracked into that kind of discussion. Beyond establishing that, there's no point in going into hybrids vs alts, I fully agree.

Giftless:

--- Quote from: avv on May 18, 2012, 07:20:20 pm ---You can have that viewpoint, I started the game like that. No hurry anywhere, just learn stuff at your own speed.
But if you strip all preferences and feelings players have, this game boils down to items and characters. Items and characters make us able to do stuff. Without either, we got nothing. The one who has both fastest, gets to do more and does it better. You can't balance a game by observing player's viewpoints. There has to be at least 2 things: something everyone wants and something everyone doesn't want, victory and loss. In our case it's gaining and losing items since character's death doesn't mean anything.

But it's not smart. It's not reasonable in terms of mechanics. Making a hybrid character is like using an underpowered gun in fps game or doing intentionally stupid strategies in rts. When you get a royal flush in poker, do you keep it or scramble it for the sake of it?
My point here is that the mechanics and fun don't go hand to hand. Fun is slow and ineffective, and not even fun for all (apes, powergamers). Effective is boring and repetitive. When the most effective and fun meet, you have a good feature.

There's no point discussion hybrid vs alts. I got few examples right here:
- max effective sneak is 300, not much room for anything else
- you want to know if there's a restock in sf tanker. You're in VC. Which one is faster: log to a shop checker who is inside the tanker or travel to sf?
- you want to know if there's something in reno. Do you travel there or log to your townchecker?
Alts allow you to travel lightning fast.

--- End quote ---

You have to travel anyway though depending on where your base and resupply points are located at. Travel isn't exactly a bad thing either; if you're a hybrid crafter you can do some PvE along your trade route for easy exp. and don't have to suffer the monotony so much of being a specialist cripple.

avv:

--- Quote from: Giftless on May 18, 2012, 09:21:51 pm ---You have to travel anyway though depending on where your base and resupply points are located at. Travel isn't exactly a bad thing either; if you're a hybrid crafter you can do some PvE along your trade route for easy exp. and don't have to suffer the monotony so much of being a specialist cripple.

--- End quote ---

The thing is that the shop checker gets the info whether or not to go in sf tanker in first place. Once you know there's a restock, you log to your barter alt, fill its inventory with sufficient ammount of bartering gear and drive to sf with a car.

Doing pve along your travels is just foolish. Mistake that nuubs make while travelling is that they don't concentrate on one thing but stray from their path and get interested in unrelated things. That gets them killed or delay them and someone else grabs the restock.

Eternauta:
Malice Song and avv thanks for the answers. I would reply point by point but it's not worth it, especially when I pretty much agree with the ideas you've explained, also, after all, we are all just typing long walls of texts that don't change anything.

Maybe I have changed a bit and I'm simply not as patient and nice as I used to be, maybe after gaining some experience in this game (I am thinking about what Malice Song said, we were all noobs at first) I have become less tolerant with newbies and I have more stuff in common with powergamers that I want to admit :D Maybe I am just not the best newbie-helper around, maybe other players are better at it. And maybe my opinions are too much based on my personal experience and not on anything like "statistics".

But still I am convinced that the best thing that could happen to this game (sticking to what's possible imo) is a tutorial and/or special area for new players.

And Malice Song, about what you said, that we should also listen to the guys that leave the game, yeah I never said/thought anything against that, but it's just true that 1) many people simply quit because this isn't Fallout 1/2 (understandable somehow, but it's like expecting the movie to be just like the novel), and 2) the actual act of reading those posts and doing something after that is imo the devs' task, not ours. I am not saying we shouldn't care about it, what I mean is that although the playerbase "creates" part of the game, we're not a homogeneous group at all and therefore we can't really make a decision after reading what those people say. Devs, however, are the ones that make the tools the playerbase uses to shape the game.

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