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[Roachor]

In Fact, with 1 luck you can't be a good medic.
With 1 endurance you are a dead guy... or the first guy to die during a fight.
With 1 PE, you have a very bad hitchance (I think you have a +8% modifier for each PE point)

If the most of the character have 1 CHA, as Pluto say, it's to be able to have 6 Luck. That mean that a 1 CH character can have most of the fighting perk (Better critical, more critical, bonus ranged damage, thougness)... Most of the character with CH can't have them.

fyi you heal just as well with 1 luck as with 9, thats why people either take 1, 6(toughness) or 10 (FA). 1 pe is only a problem if you use guns, you can do quite well with low range weapons such as throwing or flamers.

[Pennybags]

Like I said in the suggestion, "I know it won't be popular with some people".

Believe it or not, I have a 1 Charisma character myself. I'm quite aware of how difficult it is to play a 1 CH character and, IMO, its not really that difficult. I have one because its not really penalized to do so. Especially if you want to play solo. You can just sell your stuff to players in NCR. Also, there are a few NPCs that you can barter with at 1 CH, by the way.

But the reasons that people are giving against this idea don't make much sense, IMO. I'm seeing things like "you NEED 6 luck", etc. That's just ridiculous. There should be serverely gimped consequences for having a 1 in any statistic. While I'm a powergamer myself, rather than a "roleplayer", the game should still conform to RPG mechanics at least at its most basic form.

And a character with 1 Strength shouldn't be able to lift a weapon. A character with 1 Endurance shouldn't survive tripping and falling. A character with 1 intelligence should be a barely functioning retard. And a character with 1 charisma would be so hideous to look at and annoying in personality so as to be hated by absolutely everybody he meets.

All of this you need to put 1 in stats because  "you need <insert stat here> for <insert benefit>" is nonsense.  The idea that PvP is balanced because there are 2 builds (Big Gunner/Sniper) is ridiculous. There should be a wide range of effective builds, with extremes on one end and hybrids being viable as well. Its not much of a game otherwise. Tic tac toe has 2 builds. I'd expect an MMORPG to be a little more complicated.

[Roachor]

"And a character with 1 Strength shouldn't be able to lift a weapon. A character with 1 Endurance shouldn't survive tripping and falling. A character with 1 intelligence should be a barely functioning retard. And a character with 1 charisma would be so hideous to look at and annoying in personality so as to be hated by absolutely everybody he meets."

Have you ever seen someone so weak they couldn't lift a knife? Or so ugly you just attacked them out of sheer disgust? or so weak that falling can kill them? No, because its retarded. Hell even an 90 year old probably wont die from tripping. I saw a person with some fucked up birth defect where their head was all swollen out the neck and veiny like the hill billies in lookout point, no one says anything.

[Pennybags]

"Have you ever seen someone so weak they couldn't lift a knife? Or so ugly you just attacked them out of sheer disgust? or so weak that falling can kill them? No, because its retarded. Hell even an 90 year old probably wont die from tripping. I saw a person with some fucked up birth defect where their head was all swollen out the neck and veiny like the hill billies in lookout point, no one says anything."


Yes, I have seen someone so weak they couldn't lift their own arm, let alone a knife. 1 and 10 values are the absolute extreme. And people get sick, and atrophy enough to be that weak in the extreme cases. Old people trip and die all the time, though usually from inability to get back up (again dealing with the weakness issue).

Having a 1 in strength or endurance means that you are as weak and frail as is humanly possible. So think of an example of the most sick and weak person you've ever seen (or seen an image of) on their deathbed, and that person is stronger than this character with 1 strength/endurance.

As for your birth defect example, again Charisma is not soley a matter of looks. That birth defect person likely was polite, friendly, or at least not going out of his/her way to be an asshole like somebody with 1 charisma would.

And yes, in our world he/she still wouldn't be shot on sight. But shooting anybody on site isn't a viable option in civilized society. People are shot on sight out of simple mistrust in the Wasteland. In our world, a mass murderer wouldn't be shot on sight, even by the police if he wasn't posing an immediate threat.

[avv]

There should be serverely gimped consequences for having a 1 in any statistic.

No there shouldn't. Instead there should be rewards for having higher than 1 statistic. According to your logic player with luck one should randomly die by lightning strikes because he's so unlucky. That's not enjoyable gaming. Instead of that, lucky player would encounter lucky events whereas unlucky character wouldn't encounter hardly any of them but he wouldn't encounter any unlucky events either. No one would.

As for charisma, person with good charisma should get lots of bonuses but a person without good charisma shouldn't get those bonuses, but not any charisma related drawbacks either. So this means that cha 10 dude would get best mercs, some bonuses to his squadmates, some npc faction related stuff etc. Low cha dude just wouldn't get those benefits but would be able to trade normally, nor would he get shot by npcs because of his ugly face. 

[Lordus]

 Do you realize the effects of this change..
 I.e.: PvP balance

 If you will have to spend SPECIAL points into charisma, in sniper build, you must lower the the endurance. So snipers will be more weaker then now. BG builds should do it same, but the effect will not be such visible, because their advantage is in their guns, not in the perception and luck. So snipers will die (maybe) after one enemy burst instead of two burst you need to kill sniper now. So devs will have to change something else in game (weapons power, ammo power,....). You will start avalance of changes in very hot area, PvP, which is now balanced more then it ever was.
 
And this only one sideefect of this change.

Maybe you dont remeber it, but in pre wipe eras, there was possible to interact with NPC with low charisma and this change was good i think. As i told you, if you have CH1 build, you need to level up another chars so you need to spend more time ingame. This is disadvantage of this build.

[Badger]

No there shouldn't. Instead there should be rewards for having higher than 1 statistic.

Well, anything can be described as a reward for having a high stat or a penalty for a low one however you spin it. The rest of the stats have big penalties if you take 1.


You are rewarded with normal human speech for having high IN.

You are punished with talking like a retard for having low IN.

You are rewarded with the ability to use guns properly with high ST.

You are punished with ranged accuracy penalties for low ST.


Way I see it, low charisma should have penalties. It's the 'social' stat, so crippling it should cripple the ways you can interact with other players. You don't expect to be able to use big guns well with low strength, but people are insisting that their characters should be able to cooperate and coordinate with 40 other people with 1 charisma. As I said, these guys aren't interested in balance, just power.

[Pennybags]

Do you realize the effects of this change..
 I.e.: PvP balance

 If you will have to spend SPECIAL points into charisma, in sniper build, you must lower the the endurance. So snipers will be more weaker then now. BG builds should do it same, but the effect will not be such visible, because their advantage is in their guns, not in the perception and luck. So snipers will die (maybe) after one enemy burst instead of two burst you need to kill sniper now. So devs will have to change something else in game (weapons power, ammo power,....). You will start avalance of changes in very hot area, PvP, which is now balanced more then it ever was.
 

There is currently no real pvp balance anyway. There are just 2 PvP options. sniper or big guns. And while things get changed in this beta you can bet there will be an avalanche of changes in PvP at some point int he future. IThe devs can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the intention is to have only these 2 endgame options when all is said and done.

[avv]

Well, anything can be described as a reward for having a high stat or a penalty for a low one however you spin it. The rest of the stats have big penalties if you take 1.

You are rewarded with normal human speech for having high IN.

You are punished with talking like a retard for having low IN.

You are rewarded with the ability to use guns properly with high ST.

You are punished with ranged accuracy penalties for low ST.

In this case the penalty could be about not getting something good instead of getting something bad. It's much more forgiving than having characters totally crippled at certain areas.

Way I see it, low charisma should have penalties. It's the 'social' stat, so crippling it should cripple the ways you can interact with other players. You don't expect to be able to use big guns well with low strength, but people are insisting that their characters should be able to cooperate and coordinate with 40 other people with 1 charisma. As I said, these guys aren't interested in balance, just power.

Having low cha cause even more drawbacks causes even more alts and alienates gang powerplayers from certain activities, because there's no way to make cha reduce anyone's combat abilities. Soldiers don't have to be that charismatic anyone can follow orders, but they do need a charismatic and intelligent leader. So what could be done is to make cha useful in gang related fights. So useful that it will solve fights and not having a high cha leader would be a big setback.

Such leader char could bring a group of mercs with him and give bonuses to his teammates. This way cha 10 dudes wouldn't be just busses who transport people around, but lead his men at the field..

[Lordus]

There is currently no real pvp balance anyway. There are just 2 PvP options. sniper or big guns. And while things get changed in this beta you can bet there will be an avalanche of changes in PvP at some point int he future. IThe devs can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the intention is to have only these 2 endgame options when all is said and done.

 Read my BIG GUNS x SMALL GUNS suggestion thread. The PvP need more complex change than this charisma change. please, dont ruin balance if you have not enough time and ideas how to balance this area complexly.

 I told you, that this game is more balanced, then it was. After wipe changes in PvP area are battles little bit longer, because there are no instakills. This measure will weak snipers build than big guns build.

 But i dont know, why the charisma must affect PvP area for christ. Look at Lord of the rings, where thousands of ugly orks (NA) almost destroyed the Middle earth(fonline wasteland)? Do you want army of cafeteria's women seducers or what?!

[Roachor]

"Such leader char could bring a group of mercs with him and give bonuses to his teammates. This way cha 10 dudes wouldn't be just busses who transport people around, but lead his men at the field.."

Some kind of cha based perk that gives passive bonuses to party members would work.

[Pennybags]

Read my BIG GUNS x SMALL GUNS suggestion thread.

I have.

The PvP need more complex change than this charisma change. please, dont ruin balance if you have not enough time and ideas how to balance this area complexly.

Agreed. This change is simply one simple change. Not meant to be a comprahensive overhaul of anything.

 But i dont know, why the charisma must affect PvP area for christ.

What are you even talking about? This suggestion doesn't change charisma for PvP at all. It only changes it for PvE.

It would still be possible to create 1 Charisma characters and use them in PvP exactly the same. And, it will still be done. It will just make it more difficult for those characters in PvE.

[Lordus]

It would still be possible to create 1 Charisma characters and use them in PvP exactly the same. And, it will still be done. It will just make it more difficult for those characters in PvE.

 I think that all of us play this game because of interaction with other players. If someone dont want to interact, it is better to play singleplayer.

 The PvP fights is the main reason for many players to play this game. At this moment, the PvP is only existing entertaining multiplayer fight occasion in the wasteland. So if you dont want that player will leave this game, just dont make any measures, which will be threat for PvP, respectively for entertaining parts of the game.

 If you want be succesfull at PvP, you must have best chars, with best equip, best organization,... . All of theese needs to spent time. Your measure will add time demands to level up your char. But there will be always players, which will spent that time in that way, so there will be always pure PvP chars, but other players, which dont have enough time, will be unable to face them.

 I think that the idea of this suggestion was to add disadvantage to pure PvP chars because you think, they are so overpowered. From my point of view, the effect of this change will be oposite of that idea, because less player will try to get best possible chars, so they will be naturaly unsuccesfull in PvP against them.

[Pennybags]

 I think that the idea of this suggestion was to add disadvantage to pure PvP chars because you think, they are so overpowered.

Well, you are wrong. That is not the idea of this suggestion. The idea of the suggestion was to give similar consequences to setting stats to 1. PvP is unchanged with this change. It might make it more time consuming to level a 1 Charisma character up to 21 this way, but this is a game in which people can level to 21 in a matter of days anyway.

[Roachor]

Look the character builder was designed to have 10 more points than it currently does, everyone is already gimped. Stop trying to make it worse.