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[Slaver Snipe]

If you looked higher the AP AR is much greater than the sawed off shotgun.  PID seems like JHP or a variant similar if it has one for the weapon types, since they are wearing combat armor JHP types are obviously terrible.

[Mars Sultan]

PID_SAWED_OFF_SHOTGUN    1.72714114
AR AP    1.718472723

Not only that, but according to this chart the sawed off also does more than the combat shotty which should really not be possible, ever.

[Solar]

Sawed off is in a bit of a false position, because that doesn't take into account reloading - which the sawed off has to do each burst.

Those are just averaged over 10ap which is fine for most of them because they can fire over 10ap without having to reload.

[Slaver Snipe]

Is this also over range and not point blank? I would assume so which could account for why the shotguns have good damage (all of their burst hits target right?)

[Crazy]

all of their burst CAN hits target right?

Fixd

[Solar]

Yes, at range.

Its easy enough to adjust for loading times, just work each weapons ratio to firing/reloading and adjust the numbers

[Slaver Snipe]

Crazy if your going to try to correct someones English, at least do it correctly since it would be CAN hit/WILL hit.  Also go back to English class anyways because my way of saying it was correct minus a punctuation error.

[Dumb dumb]

Lets make it short: The game could earn something with a little weapon realism added.

_The thing that kills is the bullet, not the gun. If the M60 does this ammount of damage, and the FAL is using the same ammo, then the damage output should be really close.
_The gun affects accuracy, usually, the longer the barrel, the more accurate the shot will be (but then it should be less affected by luck, luck should affect mostly spray and pray weapons.
_The gun affects muzzle velocity, the longer the barrel, the faster the bullet will go, fast bullets don't really do more damage, but they pierce more armor.
_The gun affects recoil, depending on its weight, and its special features (HKG11 for example has a 3 round burst 2000rpm with no recoil feature)
_The bullets affects everything: accuracy, armor piercing, muzzle velocity, damage and recoil.

Maybe opening a thread with "Weapon changes" would be a better idea...

[Vandal]

Incidentally, this is the order of burst damage if you have 2BRD, BRoF (expressed in terms of Tommy Gun damage ) against CA

Gatling Minigun    3.024459655
Avenger AP    2.795314642
HPFA    2.539285919
Minigun AP    2.466454096
PID_M60    2.443721395
PID_PANCOR_JACKHAMMER    2.404258973
PID_HK_CAWS    2.23743284
p90c AP    2.216156083
PID_FN_FAL    2.096958694
PID_LIGHT_SUPPORT_WEAPON    2.095068407
XL 70 Ap    1.98623957
PID_SAWED_OFF_SHOTGUN    1.72714114
AR AP    1.718472723
PID_HK_P90C    1.69586124
PID_AVENGER_MINIGUN    1.661611181
SMG AP    1.645000006
PID_MINIGUN    1.453909783
PID_COMBAT_SHOTGUN    1.354235666
PID_GREASE_GUN    1.333333333
PID_SHOTGUN    1.295355855
PID_10MM_SMG    1.228686735
xl70    1.215868109
PID_ASSAULT_RIFLE    1.033667803
PID_TOMMY_GUN 1

This is good (my opinion) I wouldn't change anything

[Crazy]

Crazy if your going to try to correct someones English, at least do it correctly since it would be CAN hit/WILL hit.  Also go back to English class anyways because my way of saying it was correct minus a punctuation error.

Chill dude, I know I have an awful english and I wasn't correcting your grammar, I just made your sentence more accurate. No, all bullets of a shotgun burst won't automatically hit, but yes, they can all hit. No, it's not very important, but I prefer when things are clear, I myself came to have wrong thinking about some mechanism in the past due to inaccuracy in forum posts.

[Solar]

This is good (my opinion) I wouldn't change anything

I think the HPFA might be a touch high, LSW maybe a touch low, but I'm reasonably happy with how bursts relate to each other at the moment.

I want to add a perk which stops your DT getting reduced by AP ammo, that would mix things up a little bit without having to change all the weapons (There's always something that can be tinkered with somewhere!)

[Slaver Snipe]

If you plan on adding a perk like that please have it have a luck or something requirement, it seems as though too many of the perks have endurance or strength or agility requirement and very few require anything else.  (Besides appropriate weapon skill)

@ Crazy my mistake then but I would assume 80-90% of the people would make the assumption the bullets have a max 95% chance to hit.

[Vandal]

LSW maybe a touch low

But you can run with LSW right? Maybe a little better damage but nothing fancy, hell you can burst and run away (hide) but the guy with m60/minigun can't run!

[Solar]

Yes, the reason LSW is lower is because we are experimenting with the M60/LSW and if boosting damage at the cost of running is practicable. It won't be changing until something comes of that.

HPFA was higher on the game than I had on my spreadsheet, so maybe I just forgot to change it ... though is it even on the game at the moment?

If you plan on adding a perk like that please have it have a luck or something requirement, it seems as though too many of the perks have endurance or strength or agility requirement and very few require anything else.   (Besides appropriate weapon skill)

I'm not a fan of introducing SPECIAL requirements that you have to play around with to get perks really, it just limits build potential. I could put CH 10 on BRoF and stop it being a dump stat, but it wouldn't achieve anything

If SPECIAL requirements are there, I try to keep it in keeping with what the aim of the perk is, En for toughness perks, Luck for criticals, etc.

The perk wouldn't really be all that powerful, against Miniguns, sure, but stuff without AP ammo would be unaffected. So high damage low bullet weapons would gain some against those targets and low damage high bullets would lose. I don't think it'd be an automatic choice.

[Crazy]

HPFA was higher on the game than I had on my spreadsheet, so maybe I just forgot to change it ... though is it even on the game at the moment?

Don't think so.

I'm not a fan of introducing SPECIAL requirements that you have to play around with to get perks really, it just limits build potential. I could put CH 10 on BRoF and stop it being a dump stat, but it wouldn't achieve anything
If SPECIAL requirements are there, I try to keep it in keeping with what the aim of the perk is, En for toughness perks, Luck for criticals, etc.

I do agree, though it sometimes lead to weird situation: for example, you basically killed all EN4 build because you can't get livegiver, and no livegiver with 4EN is just way too low HP.

The perk wouldn't really be all that powerful, against Miniguns, sure, but stuff without AP ammo would be unaffected. So high damage low bullet weapons would gain some against those targets and low damage high bullets would lose. I don't think it'd be an automatic choice.

A perk like that would pretty much kill all 5mm burst weapon. Maybe reducing the loss, but full it would be just way too powerful.