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Author Topic: Is this it?  (Read 7480 times)

Re: Is this it?
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2010, 08:27:46 pm »

We can rig chances to mirror timeouts, we can make people gatherer 10 times more and only have a 10% success rate. Make it depend on skills so new characters are at an even worse disadvantage, or any number of things to mirror the function of the simple timeout.

Hey, you're in control of the numbers. I didn't put any hard and fast rules about how arbitrary those numbers can be so why make it sound so terribad? I'm saying: make it more active and involving. I'm not saying: screw the newbie.

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Basically its taking the free time afforded by a timeout and filling it with mindless extra work. People could already be out there running about doing whatever they liked, but they choose to sit and stare at a timeout.

The problem with timeouts stems from the fact that it impedes players who want to DO something, WHEN they want to do it. I'm fairly sure a ton of grief is over this fact.

Without cooldowns, a player can decide to harvest fibres, then fine tune his mining so he can make some armor. He then makes this armor and notices he has enough left over materials to make a pistol. If at any point he fails in doing any of those steps he can spend more time doing it in the hopes it turns out better, or he can stop it and do something else immediately.

With cooldowns, he has to spend extra time waiting for his gathering timeout from fibres to expire so he can over-mine and get ore he didn't intend to get. After making the armour he then spends more time waiting before he can make that pistol. During the 5 minute gathering timeouts you might say he could go for a random encounter or a nearby quest to fill the gap, but it underlines the problem: the player does NOT want to go for a random encounter, or do a quest. He wants to gather his materials and feel all crafter-like by making shit. He does not want to do a circuit of mine - random encounter - mine - quest - create armour - mine - random encounter - create pistol. And yet this is precisely what cooldowns are encouraging people to do, in order to be 'efficient'. That, or alting.

Having no cooldowns, essentially, allows the player to do what he wants, when he wants. The details involved in ensuring that the economy doesn't tank is in the difficulty of getting actual product out of the cycle, regardless of alts or available materials.

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Would make players have to talk to two NPC's on opposite ends of the WM for a more "active" crafting too, then we could remove timeouts altogether.

Alternatively, instead of productive conversation, we could disregard 'feedback' from our 'testers' and instead use sarcasm to enforce our own views of the game.
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Re: Is this it?
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2010, 08:37:19 pm »

As for crafting, it was never meant to be a "big" gameplay element, its just one of the easiest to do game play elements to get working.
Between how often issues like this are brought up and the frequency of dev statements along the lines of "there's too much high-end stuff in the game", I'd have to say it's broken.

BRING ON THE DIFFICULT STUFF! OH YEAH!
And if it's not a big element, how come it's one of the largest sources of XP?
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Re: Is this it?
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2010, 08:37:42 pm »

Alternatively, instead of productive conversation, we could disregard 'feedback' from our 'testers' and instead use sarcasm to enforce our own views of the game.

Ooh! That one.
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Solar

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Re: Is this it?
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2010, 08:53:32 pm »

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Alternatively, instead of productive conversation, we could disregard 'feedback' from our 'testers' and instead use sarcasm to enforce our own views of the game.

An absurd example which demonstrates why what you're suggesting would be just a dressed up version of what we have now. Economy needs to be controlled, to do this there needs to be restrictions and all these restrictions will eventually have to amount to the same speed as each other.

As I'd already said this in the thread that has been linked to I thought a stronger example would be in order.

You can leave people's time free, or you can fill it up with pointless tasks - crafting will be at the same rate regardless. I'm sure some people have realized you can actually play the game whilst timeouts are going, so I'm not too keen on inserting dressing to actively waste peoples time for these people.

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Re: Is this it?
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2010, 09:33:37 pm »

I am not sure you are very in control of the economy. You are just slowing it down, to delay the bad effects.
But in the end it's the time that the players have at their disposal that control the economy.

But I don't have any magical solution either... Even putting a limit to the number of items (X armors, Yguns...) that one can craft per day, could be easily turned by using an alt...
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Solar

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Re: Is this it?
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2010, 09:46:52 pm »

Well, hopefully making the advanced stuff available only from certain fixed maps (to make it more interesting), speeding up the timeouts because of the increased risk (to ... erm, speed it up) and introducing other things to take some of the scrutiny from crafting (so those that don't want to do it don't have to) will help it out. Also, the improved trader system could help out with this somewhat.

That and more drains!

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Wichura

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Re: Is this it?
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2010, 09:49:57 pm »

Everything can be "solved" by using alts. Maybe some limit of chars per person? But how to control dynamic IP addresses for example? What about players with shared net, with the same external IP behind router?
It's not just "remove cooldowns now!" case, it's more complicated I'm afraid.
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Re: Is this it?
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2010, 10:16:11 pm »

Personally i liked crafting a lot more pre wipe when there was no cooldown. You used what you had available and went out and did shit without worrying about losing your crap.
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Re: Is this it?
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2010, 12:34:19 am »

You can leave people's time free, or you can fill it up with pointless tasks - crafting will be at the same rate regardless. I'm sure some people have realized you can actually play the game whilst timeouts are going, so I'm not too keen on inserting dressing to actively waste peoples time for these people.

Those tasks are only pointless, if you make them so.

In the end, risk is fun.  PvP has a lot of risk.  (Well, for some people there is risk.)  It is fun because of risk.

Right now, gathering and crafting is safe and boring.  Also... it is very time consuming.  As it stands right now, crafting really only exists to give the starting player enough gear to be worth looting and to keep the elite stocked.  An alternative system that involves players searching for resources with chances of finding nothing, small amounts, or the motherlode, coupled with the usual chances for death and loss would actually make resource gathering interesting.  A player with high skills in the right places could have prospector like abilities to find and lead people to good spots or even good skills to get harder to access materials.  The search and hunt for resources wouldn't be pointless tasks or boring.  I've played games like this...   Star Control 2 had resource gathering like this:  Will this planet have anything value?  Can I safely traverse the surface long enough to get anything?  Will I find large deposits?  Or will I find a crap load of exotic resources?  It was quite fun.  You geared your ship for collection, you plotted your routes, kept track of systems you drained, and had to know when to "fold 'em" at times when you were low on fuel.  All the while you had to be careful when entering enemy space to avoid getting jumped by patrols.

At this point, I just wish the developers would just take a stand, be direct, and say, "NO.  We don't want to do this.  Why?  Because WE like it the way it is.  Don't like it?  Then, FUCK OFF!"  That's directness I could respect.  My only interests in the game is of the sociological variety when it comes to watching the forums.  I never thought a forum could analogue certain aspects of US corporatism politics.


Anyway... To stop the alt issues, just use the Windows API to pull the GUID (Global Unique ID) off the machine.  Most modern machines have one embedded in the BIOS that the OS can access.  If you see the same IP and the same GUID, you got an alter.  Also, the client could do a few calls to check for any other instances of the FOnline client and prevent it from running.
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vad

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Re: Is this it?
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2010, 08:50:27 am »

Anyway... To stop the alt issues, just use the Windows API to pull the GUID (Global Unique ID) off the machine.  Most modern machines have one embedded in the BIOS that the OS can access.  If you see the same IP and the same GUID, you got an alter.  Also, the client could do a few calls to check for any other instances of the FOnline client and prevent it from running.

FOnline already uses WinAPI.
FindWindow – to find another FOnline windows.
GetVolumeInformation(lpVolumeSerialNumber) and GetAdaptersInfo(pAdapterInfo->Address) to identify machine by hardware.
And that does not stop the alt issues at all.
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Solar

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Re: Is this it?
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2010, 10:11:45 am »

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Right now, gathering and crafting is safe and boring.  Also... it is very time consuming.  As it stands right now, crafting really only exists to give the starting player enough gear to be worth looting and to keep the elite stocked.  An alternative system that involves players searching for resources with chances of finding nothing, small amounts, or the motherlode, coupled with the usual chances for death and loss would actually make resource gathering interesting.  A player with high skills in the right places could have prospector like abilities to find and lead people to good spots or even good skills to get harder to access materials.  The search and hunt for resources wouldn't be pointless tasks or boring.

Well, as mentioned earlier, advanced stuff will move to fixed maps that aren't safe. Also the increased travel will "force" people to fill some of this free time with WM travel.

As for what you're suggesting, it would just be another disguise for a timeout. So to continue repeating myself) It would need to be configured to give the same overall speed, so instead of 1 click -> resources -> free time, you have 1 click -> 1 click -> 1 click -> 1 click -> 1 click -> 1 click -> continue on. It can be 5X or X+X+X+X+X, it can be 100% chance 10% of the time or 10% chance 100% of the time.

Then to reward high skills, this (like so much else) is ruined by alts. People would just develop alts to give themselves the max reward, so max reward would have to be set to what it is and the rest of the people would then have to have the whole thing to make room for the improvement.

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At this point, I just wish the developers would just take a stand, be direct, and say, "NO.  We don't want to do this.  Why?  Because WE like it the way it is.  Don't like it?  Then, FUCK OFF!"  That's directness I could respect.  My only interests in the game is of the sociological variety when it comes to watching the forums.  I never thought a forum could analogue certain aspects of US corporatism politics.

Well, Timeouts will be remaining, but I'd prefer to talk through why rather than just tell everyone to fuck off :P. I'm sure the system can be improved to be more enjoyable and alternatives can be introduced, but there will always be an underlying timeout to control the excess and stop equipment becoming completely trivial.

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FOnline already uses WinAPI.
FindWindow – to find another FOnline windows.
GetVolumeInformation(lpVolumeSerialNumber) and GetAdaptersInfo(pAdapterInfo->Address) to identify machine by hardware.
And that does not stop the alt issues at all.

Yes, alts ruin a lot of features and the only really effective way of stopping it is to charge for accounts, something thats just not an option for us, so we have to compromise things to accommodate this :(
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Quote from: Woodrow Wilson
If you want to make enemies, try to change something.
Re: Is this it?
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2010, 12:45:05 pm »

As for what you're suggesting, it would just be another disguise for a timeout. So to continue repeating myself) It would need to be configured to give the same overall speed, so instead of 1 click -> resources -> free time, you have 1 click -> 1 click -> 1 click -> 1 click -> 1 click -> 1 click -> continue on. It can be 5X or X+X+X+X+X, it can be 100% chance 10% of the time or 10% chance 100% of the time.
It would only be a disguise if you make it simply so.  The main thing is to work on an overall average.  You would need to add in a random factor that averages out to a determined rate over time.  So you could check a few resource nodes and find nothing, or get lucky in finding an untouched node with a lot of piled up resources.  You act like resource hunting is a pointless waste... ignoring the idea of having to travel around to find the resource, possibly clearing out some critter on the route there... and maybe when you get there, and hoping you don't get jumped.  And the argument of granted resources in exchange for a timeout is better because the timeout allows (forces) the player to do something else has a flaw:  This assumes the player actually wants to do something else or is capable of doing something else.  A player stuck waiting to craft basic equipment before venturing out is STUCK waiting. This becomes even more painful with ease the such crafted equipment can be lost.  So with a chance death, you are sometimes forced to just give up the game for an hour.

The analogies at the end of the statement don't really relate to the situation at hand.  You have trade X time for Y resources. Both X and Y are fixed.  I want to trade X time for Y resources with both X and Y being unfixed random numbers that average out similar to the first example.  They are only equal to each other overall in the game over time... and even then only approach equality over a period of time.

From what I've gathered... the argument for timeouts seems to be made from the perspective of the upper tier elite and other high level players in factions with the focus on PVP.  This explains a lot of the points of contention.  Timeouts work perfectly if resource gathering isn't your main focus and you just pick up stuff after running around killing stuff when it happens to be in the area.  Timeouts on First Aid make sense when you have faction supplied stimpacks and equipment to negate the need for First Aid. Timeouts on skills after death make sense when you are stopping the opposing faction from getting re-equipped and ready for battle.  Timeouts work when you are a higher level and don't really worry about the basics anymore...

They don't work well... when you are trying to start out... at all.  I would be very interested in seeing the disparity and ratio of rich and poor players.  Also, the fact there is very little "middle class" players is not a good sign.  Like in any economic system, wealth disparity and the non-existence of certain wealth classes is never a good sign.

Quite frankly it seems that the system is designed to make starting players little more than easy prey... in fact... far easier than most critters (humanoid and non-humanoid).  The lower 90% is merely financial fodder for the upper 10%.  Hey, nothing like US corporatism abstractly played out in a game. 

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Then to reward high skills, this (like so much else) is ruined by alts. People would just develop alts to give themselves the max reward, so max reward would have to be set to what it is and the rest of the people would then have to have the whole thing to make room for the improvement.
The neurotic stance everyone has about alts is quite amusing. You act as if they ruin a game entirely.  Alts are seen as a good thing to have in a majority of MMO games and it doesn't break or bother them.  A serious EVE Online player will pay for multiple accounts to maintain required construction and market alts in conjunction with PVP alts.  Doesn't bother the EVE online economy and crafting system at all.  People will always go for a max reward in any game...  When people discuss character builds... they are min/maxing.  It's a pretty common practice in any game.  If you are going to put so much time and effort into something, you want to get the most from it.  I've designed pen and paper characters in games to be absolute monsters, looked up builds for characters for Ragnarok Online to avoid wasting days of effort because of a misplaced stat point, and read up about the mathematical equations behind the equipment bonuses in about every Blizzard game out there.  Min/maxing happens.

You seem to be trying to enforce the idea of not optimizing characters in a game in which the mechanics presently encourage it greatly.  It is confusing.
 
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Well, Timeouts will be remaining, but I'd prefer to talk through why rather than just tell everyone to fuck off :P. I'm sure the system can be improved to be more enjoyable and alternatives can be introduced, but there will always be an underlying timeout to control the excess and stop equipment becoming completely trivial.
Equipment isn't trivial... it's actually pretty damn scarce and hard to obtain at the lower rung of the hierarchy.  And in a system where equipment determines everything, being bluesuit and destitute pretty ruins the game for most.  Even getting enough materials to craft a basic gun is an hour long process... if you don't get killed.  Sure you could buy a weapons and goods, but getting caps is a long and annoying process. Not that much fun.  When a game is driven by equipment like this one is, not having access to basics is a damn death sentence.

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Yes, alts ruin a lot of features and the only really effective way of stopping it is to charge for accounts, something thats just not an option for us, so we have to compromise things to accommodate this :(
If you've played EVE Online, charging doesn't stop alts at all.  Anyone serious about any game has no problems with spending extra money to get an edge.  Charging reduces the number, but doesn't stop them and won't stop the ones you need to focus on.  If anything, a verified e-mail address will reduce the number of alts.  It'll only stop the semi-casual players, but those are the same group you'd stop by charging.

Honestly, alts are going to exist no matter what.  But, alts don't ruin a game...  Bad design and mechanics ruin a game, but alts don't.  That's like saying a bunch of friends working together at a LAN party will ruin a game.  Or a player in a DnD game playing more than one character will ruin the game.  Saying that another player working closely together with another player in game will ruin it doesn't make sense, especially in a game that encourages it.  I've played too many games and alts have actually tended to be more of a benefit at times overal.  In EVE Online I had a market trader alt that never left Jita and worked that crazy market, while my PvPer ran around like a drunken dumbass in Lower Syndicate corridor ganking punks in Reblier.  Any rare items that my PvPer found would be dropped off at the border of high sec space and put on a transport contract to my trader alt.  In exchange, I'd get good prices on equipment that would be trucked back to my PVPer.  I'd swap to the trader for a while when there was nothing going on PVP wise and vice versa.  Other players in Jita benefit from the goods I found and sent up there.  Also, people I was running with benefit by the goods I resold at better prices down the PVP space.  Also, the occasional money transfer from the trader to the PVPer when there was a bad round of losing ships helped.

I think the paranoia and neurotic focuses are misplaced.  Seems like the developers are addressing symptoms rather than sources.  Ah hell, oh well.
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Solar

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Re: Is this it?
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2010, 01:22:24 pm »

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The analogies at the end of the statement don't really relate to the situation at hand.  You have trade X time for Y resources. Both X and Y are fixed.  I want to trade X time for Y resources with both X and Y being unfixed random numbers that average out similar to the first example.

So ... they are unfixed numbers that average out to the same. Or in equation terms, unfixed numbers A and B which average out to X and Y - so that A = X and B = Y, then they are the same and it is just a disguise on the same system.
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You act like resource hunting is a pointless waste... ignoring the idea of having to travel around to find the resource, possibly clearing out some critter on the route there... and maybe when you get there, and hoping you don't get jumped.

No, I act like these things are independent of timeouts. Several times in this thread I've indicated that we will move to fixed maps for advanced materials for this very reason, whilst preserving the timeouts as well.

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A serious EVE Online player will pay for multiple accounts to maintain required construction and market alts in conjunction with PVP alts.

The difference is that you can make hundreds of alts, whereas (presumably) no one is going to bother paying to run hundreds of slave accounts. If I were making money by forcing this practice I wouldn't care either.
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Equipment isn't trivial... it's actually pretty damn scarce and hard to obtain at the lower rung of the hierarchy.  And in a system where equipment determines everything, being bluesuit and destitute pretty ruins the game for most.  Even getting enough materials to craft a basic gun is an hour long process...

10mm pistol - 0.06 hours
100 10mm JHP Ammo - 0.333 hours
Leather Jacket - 0.0833 hours

Total = 0.4766 hours.

Its then possible to gather enough for twice this amount in half an hour and craft it without starting the crafting timeout at all. Without a profession.
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Lexx

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Re: Is this it?
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2010, 03:39:50 pm »

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A serious EVE Online player will pay for multiple accounts to maintain required construction and market alts in conjunction with PVP alts.  Doesn't bother the EVE online economy and crafting system at all.

As soon as you have to pay for playing FOnline, we will not care too.



Oh wait, you will never have pay for playing FOnline.
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Re: Is this it?
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2010, 05:25:20 pm »

yea i just saw the post. its sooo time consuming its rediculous. I'd give a warm welcome to all new comers to the waitlands. But i doubt they even stay long enough to get to the point of being annoyed of wasting time with timers.


Did u ever just ask your self that ur the one thats shit???  First of all wating is not all about the game there is way more ways to make money.
Plus if u get freinds, or even when u get to the point where people work for you, then the game isnt boring, only the game masters are not doing any work  recently nothing new added same old shit, so after lvl 21 u just pvp all day and do the same thing over and over, till then its very fun, but sad becuase u can power level to 21 in 2 days.

So i am taking it slow enjoying my fav game as much as i can, even tho i know it will not get any better i still hope so .
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