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Author Topic: Fonline as any MMO?  (Read 2092 times)

Fonline as any MMO?
« on: December 19, 2011, 02:34:24 am »

This made me think ... more than usual and i realized i don't have a strong opinion about this subject , nor i think it's discussed properly , so i decided to make a topic.

I don't say new players shouldn't die, but if they die and are clever enough, they should know how they could have done to survive.

I think we have to agree that this game is not for everyone .... or should it ? Some just expect this game to be like other mmorpg's with starting areas , raised difficulty as you progress etc. etc. the most basic principles of the popular mmorpg's today , that this game lacks and new players get frustrated by it's " style ".

Now the questions are , is that good or bad ? Does this game needs to be " friendlier " to the common player out there in the sake of population or just common sense ?

I can pull out tons of more questions  , but this will have to do .... please discuss.
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Michaelh139

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Re: Fonline as any MMO?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2011, 02:55:42 am »

there should be an extremely small, starting area, with only possible level 0 stuff to be able to get, so that they at least have a place where they can grab the ropes.

I know, the idea of being thrown to the dogs, and being forced to survive as best you can, and all the awesome experiences it can bring about, is completely understandable, and I cannot argue against it.

But I think personally, it is worth it for majority population, for there to be something for newbies, something, even if it's so small a map, or so crappy, it's something.
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Wichura

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Re: Fonline as any MMO?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2011, 03:32:31 am »

there should be an extremely small, starting area, with only possible level 0 stuff to be able to get, so that they at least have a place where they can grab the ropes.
O'rly?

I've never played any other MMOs, so I can't really tell if they are or aren't more harsh than FOnline. For sure some help for newcomers could be useful, yet it can't be dumb idea like "noob island", "immortality fo beginners", "no-PvP for low levels" or other that kind.
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Re: Fonline as any MMO?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2011, 04:17:19 am »

Well Wichura, this game is definitely more harsh than almost all MMOs out there as they usually have a no item drop system or only inventory item drop, and it's death penalties are very minor like a weakness for 5-10 minutes.  Some type of minor tutorial could be nice for the newer players, although I don't believe I needed it at all and enjoyed learning through making mistakes and then correcting myself.  But it is my belief any type of "noob area" would have to have a short/very short introduction as I would like my opponents in the world to correct mistakes they have made based on their intelligence rather than just following what the noob area said they should do.  The ghost farm idea could be nice but I don't want to lose one of my favorite places to find very small groups of people to fight.

Basic tutorial that would show the basics of crafting/killing weak npcs for gear and showing them how to make a tent would probably help a few along and possibly improve the playerbase for a limited time bup I believe the "noobs" would still leave after they die one too many times to other players.
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OXXON

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Re: Fonline as any MMO?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2011, 04:42:05 am »

There shouldnt be starting areas at all, everyone who starts playing Fonline should understand that its not just lvling up killing monsters and that stuff, this game goes beyond that. the risk of being killed in any place at any time is something players have to get used to from the start, altough i know the "noob process" is quite hard in this game, only the ones that evolve in the way they play the game keep playing it, and the ones who ragequit are just people that doesnt like the game as much as we regular players do. I think this game ahs a particular community that help to make it very interesting and thats because the players of this game are commited with playing it, taking the roleplay of the game to a level that ive rarely seen in other cames with those "starting areas".
and you dont need that kind of help, there are even factions that help noobs or good people you can find out in hte wastes ( like The Lost Children, or any wastelander thats willing to helo), but thats part of Roleplay, i think.

when you start playing Fo its like a filter, and making it easy to play at the beginning will bring only worse people to the wastes(that are bad enough already lol).



thats my opinion. sorry for my english.
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Re: Fonline as any MMO?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2011, 07:43:15 am »

I guess whether it's a good idea or not depends on what the goal is.  FOnline IS more harsh, but that's why I like it.  I understand that's why some DON'T like it.

If it's just a new player area where someone can learn the ropes in safety, I personally don't see a problem with it.  Some new players would find it helpful, I think.  The basics of resource gathering, crafting, and controls could easily be learned in such an area, and might prove helpful once a new player enters the big bad world outside.  At this point it really wouldn't help me much, so I'm indifferent.  It's not my game, either.

On the other hand, if the goal is to increase player population I don't think it would help in any noticeable way (and I very well could be wrong about this).  Whatever a players motivation for quitting, they will still encounter it in the rest of the game once they leave their padded safety room.  Be it PK's, thieves, or dying in encounters at low levels, all of these things will still be present.  Also the fact remains, that some people simply won't like the game.  It happens.

If (BIG if) it was my server and someone convinced me to implement a noob area, I would probably do it along these lines:

- Small map, about 5x5 in size that contains all the features in the game world.  Have it include ruins, desert, and mountainous regions.  This way you could learn to navigate the map, gather resources, and also have encounters with low level critters for XP and resources.

- A normal size town, maybe the size of Hub (not including Old Town, The Heights, etc).  It could be pretty basic with a few traders, a workbench and still, and maybe a few small quests.

- A small cave location that you can exit the noob area from permanently, and would spawn you near one of the normal starting towns in the game.

- You can take with you when you leave whatever you can carry, or some other type of weight/item count limit.  Be it hides, basic weapons/armor, or other resources.  This would be your starting items instead of meat jerky, cigarettes, a magazine and a flower. 

- At exit you can modify your build (but not the name/gender).  Specials, tags, and traits.  Helpful for anyone who has ever botched a build and didn't notice until an hour later, and had to remake.

- Cap it at level 3, so you can have one perk before you leave.  Any other XP gained in the noob area doesn't accrue, and to continue leveling you must exit.  This would prevent people from leveling to 21 in safety, and ensure that the only people still sticking around after level 3 are either trying to be helpful, or are not ready to leave yet.

- Instead of dying, respawning with an empty inventory, and having to walk back to wherever, I would consider having a 60 second "time out" where you are knocked out, and then teleported in a weakened state back to the main town with your full inventory.  FA and DOC cooldowns apply, you just don't lose your items.  Players cannot loot other players when they are unconscious, and you cannot use "steal" to take items.  At worst, you could get 60 seconds down time and *shits in mouth*.  Maybe an insulting comment about your mother.

- NPC's near workbenches, and some mini-quests where you get dialog tutorials (or "ask for help") about certain things like using the fixboy, cutting fibers, using the still, chopping wood, mining, etc.  This was all confusing to me my first week.

The most important part is that it's optional.  If you don't want to play in that area you can skip it by simply exiting the map.  You can get a warning message asking if you're "Sure", a yes/no, and that's that.  Off to the big bad world where you can lose all the stuff you've worked for with a single bullet (ragequit optional).

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Re: Fonline as any MMO?
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2011, 11:13:12 am »

Fonline has managed to persuade a good deal of players to play but many of them are just simply waiting for wipe. Those players alone are enough to populate the server. If you calculate the entire population playing 2238, requiem, tla and whatever servers there are we are talking about thousands. They too are potential players who aren't afraid of the harshness this game supposedly has.

The most important part is that it's optional.  If you don't want to play in that area you can skip it by simply exiting the map.  You can get a warning message asking if you're "Sure", a yes/no, and that's that.  Off to the big bad world where you can lose all the stuff you've worked for with a single bullet (ragequit optional).

I don't think it's necessary to make that tutorial map. New players don't quit because they don't know something but because they have setbacks where they die for some reason and lose items. I'd say the beginning is hardest part of the game because you have plain nothing. Best way to ease up this matter would be to help players to get 10 hides easier because once you can store items somewhere, you won't lose everything once you die. It's actually somewhat troubblesome for even good player to get the ten hides right in the beginning.
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Re: Fonline as any MMO?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2011, 12:05:01 pm »

I wrote it before ofcooz in suggestions that player should have temprorary "tent-like" starting place for his own.
Now when u entering the game u start in the basement/minning camp/tent   it should be visible for player as a tent-like place for lets say 7 days ? NPC inside should inform that he has to kick him out after those 7 days it should be cleary stated. (green dot dissapearing from WM)

This is the biggest rage factor (beside full loot system - which is great and shoulnd be touched btw) for newcomers. They start the game know absoletely nothing and lose ALL stuff over and over again couse they simply dont have a place to stash them. The start from scratch is to harsh. That idea wont kill the game like some crazy non-pvp till level 6 suggestions, it would just prevent a lot of players from ragequit/abandoning the game before even knowning it.

After those 7 days almost for sure they gona know how to make tent / rent a room so the transition would be smooth.
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Re: Fonline as any MMO?
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2011, 01:40:00 pm »

I have realized that fonline players often miss the difference between harshness and unnescessary gaming or interface discomfort ad nonintuitivness.

Mostly discussed example of unintuitivness is that newbs are thrown to complete sandbox without slightest hint what to do. User interface also sucks but i believe devs are on the right way to make it functional, intuitive and comfortable to use.

On the other hand good examples of harshness (which i like in MMOs) is free PvP even on the world map and gangfigts over cities, PKing in the HQ mines and other resource areas.

There are other MMOs which are like hello kitty compared to Fonline. Like WoW with no full loot and no unvoluntary PvP. There are also "harsh" MMOs wih full loot, and free pvp in any place in game universe like EvE online (which i consider even harsher than fonline because on death you loose your complete ship and winner is able to loot only small fraction of your former equip though most of it is simply destroyed.) or old Ultima online. I think that fonline developers should look more on those other "harsh" projects to see which concepts and ideas work good in such environment and which concepts are dommed to oblivion.

Newbie starting in EvE is made pretty comfortable and intuitive because immediately after creating new char you are dragged into long series of quests both combat and industry related. Those quests show new player all basic concepts of the game but are easily skippable. New players aso start in "safe" area of game. That means PvP is possible here but attacking someone also means loosing your ship.(no stealing there, sucuide bursting is very expensive fun there)
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Re: Fonline as any MMO?
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2011, 06:21:28 pm »

FOnline is a bad 2D shooter. ...I'm not trolling.
Current game mechanics and UI make it so.  :(
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Re: Fonline as any MMO?
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2011, 08:45:08 pm »

I wrote it before ofcooz in suggestions that player should have temprorary "tent-like" starting place for his own.
Now when u entering the game u start in the basement/minning camp/tent   it should be visible for player as a tent-like place for lets say 7 days ? NPC inside should inform that he has to kick him out after those 7 days it should be cleary stated. (green dot dissapearing from WM)

That sounds interesting.

Quote
Mostly discussed example of unintuitivness is that newbs are thrown to complete sandbox without slightest hint what to do. User interface also sucks but i believe devs are on the right way to make it functional, intuitive and comfortable to use.

Indeed, Ultima Online for exemple, is even more harsh on new players, BUT the community really help new players, many players played for 10 years and more and are completely not intersted in free PKing noobs (maybe for several years, but you get tired of it). So I think the important is for olds players to welcome new ones (I understand many players are still kids and might lack the maturity to do so.), we need to stop keeping our secrets and post all what we know on forum so we all play on the same level.

Its our personnal responsability to welcome new players. A clean and easy to read section for new players with all info would be very handy, I am not talking about the wiki (very important too) but a guide for noobs that includes all you need to know (builds, transport organisation (having tents at all places you want to go to store your car), respawn tents, multiple bases, bug that prevent you from encountering players when you are set to real time only, mercs spawn abuse, CS and dual log, farming, *pro-PVP* techniques, ect). A guide that is up to date and take in account the actual reality.

On the other hand, like I often tell to new players raging on forum, this game is not for everyone, some people are best stay away from it and we must not try to *keep* them.
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Re: Fonline as any MMO?
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2011, 10:17:49 pm »

If the biggest problem in the beginning is simply not having somewhere to store stuff then why not make your spawn location reusable for about 1 RL week or until you get tent.
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Re: Fonline as any MMO?
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2011, 12:11:14 am »

If the biggest problem in the beginning is simply not having somewhere to store stuff then why not make your spawn location reusable for about 1 RL week or until you get tent.

Yes!

I'll make brand new merc leaders and fill the spawns with mercs!

Oh, I see.
Instances.

:(
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Re: Fonline as any MMO?
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2011, 01:02:33 am »

The Lost Children are in the process of writing Tutorial-esque holotapes entitled:

The Bluesuit's Guide to the Wasteland

With these holotapes, in conjunction with our friendly demeanor, we hope to offer a sort of tutorial for all new players who are fortunate to encounter us. 

However, the obvious shortcoming is, we can't meet everyone.

We do what we can, when we can... everything else is a bonus.


WE WORK FOR YOU.

FIND US.
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Re: Fonline as any MMO?
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2011, 01:40:56 am »

Fonline has managed to persuade a good deal of players to play but many of them are just simply waiting for wipe. Those players alone are enough to populate the server. If you calculate the entire population playing 2238, requiem, tla and whatever servers there are we are talking about thousands. They too are potential players who aren't afraid of the harshness this game supposedly has.

I don't think it's necessary to make that tutorial map. New players don't quit because they don't know something but because they have setbacks where they die for some reason and lose items. I'd say the beginning is hardest part of the game because you have plain nothing. Best way to ease up this matter would be to help players to get 10 hides easier because once you can store items somewhere, you won't lose everything once you die. It's actually somewhat troubblesome for even good player to get the ten hides right in the beginning.

You sure you read all of my post?  I actually addressed everything you just said...

Anyway, I'm well aware of all of this.  I'm not suggesting that be implemented, just that it's the only way (specifics not important) I can think of doing it without sacrificing the game as it is.  And I'm not even sure it would boost player retention (as I already said).  It would simply be a way to coddle new players so they don't lose too much of their starting gear, and allow them the opportunity to gather 10 hides in safety until they're ready to venture out into the real game world, and possibly familiarize themselves with the game mechanics before it "really matters".
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