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[Wichura]

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tl;dr of course.

[Astenu]

Most of us is in Fonline to spread death all around, not economy. Some people are more interested in crafting and some other things not exactly connected with mayhem. I remember how disappointed i was when i find out caravans useless and not to many crafting professions and many other small things, jokes like 10k of bbs in every shop. Once i told my friend about fonline and he asked if the crafting system was advanced, i said game is more fight orientated, so he passed. people like him could have their fun and be very usefull for any faction. I think that could be a kick for economy in some way.

[OskaRus]

Well lordus this idea indicates some fundamental misunderstanding about economy. (nothing personal.) Inflation is effect caused by adding more money to economy tahts true. But important variable in the equation is also supply and demand (both caused by players). Any attempt to implement in game NPC inflation would be like curing flu by baning sneezing and coughing.

In singleplayer game where exist no economy but NPC trader it might have some sense. But do we want to have Hello kitty economy where NPC traders buy all the shit and are no money around when you need them? Or do we want real economy where players can trade freely and set their own prices based on supply and demand and have only alts they like and trade the rest of stuff?

[Lordus]

 OskaRus, i know how inflation in real world works.

Wiki: In economics, inflation is a rise in the general level of prices of goods and services in an economy over a period of time. When the general price level rises, each unit of currency buys fewer goods and services. Consequently, inflation also reflects an erosion in the purchasing power of money – a loss of real value in the internal medium of exchange and unit of account in the economy.

But you should know Oskarus, that inflation could be effect caused by another thing, than supply and demand. Look at our (Czechoslovakia history), at times when we had planned economy. Most prices of goods and services were determined by decision of leaders of communist party. From time to time, price of goods and services were changed, from various reasons.

Because of absence of demand supply element in directed economy, there was need to artificaly change the demand for some goods (i.e. bad yield of grain => less bread => directly raised price of this goods => people will more eat rice). Maybe economist have different name for this, but it is the same.

 And 2238 is also more like planned economy. Most goods (weapons, armors, bases,...) and services (proffesions, quests,..) have artificaly set prices. And like in real existing planned economy, where exists black market based on supply demand principles, in 2238 is NCR bazaar, where you can trade with players on supply demand principle.

 Back to my idea. 2238 artificaly set prices and supply of caps IMO negatively affect player vs. player trades, in quantitative level (majority of trades are player vs. NPC) and qualitative (i think that core PvP stuff is not traded among players (looting after PvP does not count ). So i think, that change of current artifical set of economical attributes, could result into more interaction between players => more fun.

 

 

[Kanly]

Why I think this is a bad idea ?

After some time with inflation a combat armor will cost 21000 caps,  we will trade with other player? NOOO
We will sell to the traders some lazor rifle find figthing unity ( and we will sell it to the trader to the double of normal price)
or we will give to the trader bb ammo ( with inflation bb ammo = 8 caps huzzah)

So we will change something? Yes people will keep more stuff at the tent, more lag that is the thing we need MOAR
Huzzah !!!


If you want realistic market and more useful inflation then you must do some real script
when a trader resupply then he should compare the stuff that he have now with the stuff he haved
and lower the price of stuff unselled (bb ammo would become soon without value) and items that have selled
and are now out of supply should have now a higher price ( soon buffout will reach 5000 caps each).

My humble opinion   

[OskaRus]

And 2238 is also more like planned economy.

Highest time to march from modoc to ring our keys in the NCR square and demand free market. Not introduce more artificial market regulation. ;-)

Back to my idea. 2238 artificaly set prices and supply of caps IMO negatively affect player vs. player trades

Thats just small part of the problem. Prices are set only for low tier stuff or materials (unupgraded weapons). Finding anything usefull (sniper rifle, combat armor) is more of a quest itself consuming much more time than caps by the final trade. Like the queues for bananas i Czechoslovakia. xD NPC traders as i understand them are more like hostile boses or dungeon treasures which sometimes after long and tedious battle drop something of value.

Player interaction in economy is nonexistant in fonline because trading is
a) insecure: youll get robed or (sucuide) killed on meeting point with your customer
b) time consuming: you have to actualy ask on forum or in bublic place (outcome a) and wait for replies
c) requires exact timing: you just have to be loged the same time as your customer.

due to a) any profit of trading is highly disputable and more of a luck than hard work. Due to b) it is much faster to make your own crafter than to ask for goods. due to c) trading between different timezone players or players with different work shifts is practicaly impossible.

I believe some pepople would like to see marketplace flourishing of player life and people huddling about prices but thats just not how trading in MMOs works. Many successfull projects (Eve online, WoW for instance) have shown that single safe (more or less, but suicuide ganks here are much more costly and harder to pull out) unregulated place of trade is required and sufficient for any PvP trading and economy.

With any such marketplace or auctionhous i believe PvP trading would swiftly take over NPC traders in volume and popularity. NPC set prices might be still twisting a prices but there would be at least any prices and trade they migh twist.

[Lordus]

After some time with inflation a combat armor will cost 21000 caps,  we will trade with other player? NOOO
We will sell to the traders some lazor rifle find figthing unity ( and we will sell it to the trader to the double of normal price)
or we will give to the trader bb ammo ( with inflation bb ammo = 8 caps huzzah)

 1) after wipe, you will need to "consume" another same item or more to repair it, so you will not have same large amount of items storaged on bases ground. You want weapons to PvP, you need to repair it. You want sell weapons to NPC merchants, you need to repair it. So not dozens laser rifle from one player...
 
 2) At moment, when new CA would cost 21000 caps, you will be able to sell it to NPC trader at same price (21 000 caps, minus some caps because of sell price is always lower). But at this moment, NPC trader would have still only 5 000 caps spawn per hour in his inventory (those numbers are only examples of course). So almost everyone, who wants to sell something, will drain caps from NPC traders. Temporarily, until next caps respawn. So as a player who need caps, you will have two choices: travel across wasteland and seek for respawned caps (=> population of empty cities, this is good effect), but it will take a time or you can trade with players (sell your crafted items), who have caps. Because at moment, when CA would cost 21 000 caps (after several real life weeks or months), there will exists (like every session) many wealthy gangs with bank accounts or caves filled with dozens, hundret thousands or milions of caps (=fact). And those gangs, or rich players who will need many items (armor, weapons = because of repair ) will have 2 choices = go and sell more of their caps for less items from NPC traders (inflation), or talk and trade less of their caps for items from players (who would rather craft usable items for players, instead of crafting huge amount of bb gun ammo with risk that they will still need more time to sell it).

If you want realistic market ..

 I dont think that we want realistic market, we want market, that fulfills its purpose. And purpose of MMORPG is player interaction. Trades with NPC is not player interaction.

Highest time to march from modoc to ring our keys in the NCR square and demand free market. Not introduce more artificial market regulation. ;-)

  This will mean that you will have to remove NPC traders from game, because every NPC trader will deform free player market.
 

Thats just small part of the problem. Prices are set only for low tier stuff or materials (unupgraded weapons). Finding anything usefull (sniper rifle, combat armor) is more of a quest itself consuming much more time than caps by the final trade. Like the queues for bananas i Czechoslovakia. xD NPC traders as i understand them are more like hostile boses or dungeon treasures which sometimes after long and tedious battle drop something of value.

 But this supports idea of my suggestion. Players with caps needs much more time to find stuff they need (NPC traders seeking). So they craft. But my idea adds another "disadvantage" => inflation. And solution => trade with players.

Player interaction in economy is nonexistant in fonline because trading is
a) insecure: youll get robed or (sucuide) killed on meeting point with your customer
b) time consuming: you have to actualy ask on forum or in bublic place (outcome a) and wait for replies
c) requires exact timing: you just have to be loged the same time as your customer.

due to a) any profit of trading is highly disputable and more of a luck than hard work. Due to b) it is much faster to make your own crafter than to ask for goods. due to c) trading between different timezone players or players with different work shifts is practicaly impossible.

I agree that this obstacle, but not the main reason.

I believe some pepople would like to see marketplace flourishing of player life and people huddling about prices but thats just not how trading in MMOs works. Many successfull projects (Eve online, WoW for instance) have shown that single safe (more or less, but suicuide ganks here are much more costly and harder to pull out) unregulated place of trade is required and sufficient for any PvP trading and economy.

Problem is, that when you reach some level of wealth, you dont realy need to trade with other playres to get stuff, because you are self-sufficient (player or faction). So you can have free market, but no ECONOMICAL need to trade there.

With any such marketplace or auctionhous i believe PvP trading would swiftly take over NPC traders in volume and popularity. NPC set prices might be still twisting a prices but there would be at least any prices and trade they migh twist.

That could exist even if my suggestion would be implemented. But on other way, auctions, where you set up price and amount, than you leave for a while is not the exact form of player interaction, i would like to see in MMORPG, because you can practicaly do bussiness without any contact with other players.

[Infiltrator]

This is utterly useless. It'll just ruin the prices and also the way you trade. You higher the price, you lower the price of the item you sell. It's pointless.

[Shonsu]

if we want further player to player trading we need an auction house.  Bring your item in, set a starting price and a minimum price, and an end date and players can come in and bid on that item.  A guarded zone obviously.  Anyone caught with a weapon in his or her hands is instantly shot.

This solves both problems of safety and time zone issues.


p.s. how's tis maintenance thing going to work after wipe? Any specifics? 

[Lordus]

This is utterly useless. It'll just ruin the prices and also the way you trade. You higher the price, you lower the price of the item you sell. It's pointless.

 I agree, that this would change the way you trade in this session. But because of exact purposes i described before. Useless? Well, if you think that change in price of goods and sevices does not affect human (player) behaviour... 

 

if we want further player to player trading we need an auction house.  Bring your item in, set a starting price and a minimum price, and an end date and players can come in and bid on that item.  A guarded zone obviously.  Anyone caught with a weapon in his or her hands is instantly shot.

 Auction house is idea that could exists or not with my suggestion. I agree, that wasteland needs absolutely safe place for trade (no PKs, no thiefs, no suicide bombers, ...).  I can imagine, that players should pay some minor payment for this secure services. (dozens or hundreds of caps per entrace/time ..), so more unsafe places would still provide pleasure for players that parasites on other players.

 

It is sad, that 2238 is on edge of sandbox game. Imagine, that you can create outpost where you want, so you can create it near NCR, make it visible and start your merchant (auction dome) roleplay. Or imagine, that you can rent a place in NCR to make your bussines there..

.

 But player vs. player trades should not be without direct players interaction. It is wasteland, market place, where you need to meet players, talk with them, negotiate, trade or not, make contacts and future discounts, friends... Auction house, where your player vs. player trade will realized thru another NPC is not reason why to play MMORPG (because of absence of direct interaction with player).

 And another reason. Why do you think, that auction dome would help players? Again, rich gangs and players could totaly deform prices of items (and they did), they will buy all pvp usable stuff. Simply. And it would be buggy, very buggy. Rather simple solution.

 I remember many post wipe times, when i traded on NCR bazaar with other players. But this trades, motivated by getting first needed stuff to level and arm your chars disapeard, when players reached some level of wealth. My idea wants to improve trades after this stages, motivate players to do that.
 

 

[OskaRus]

But player vs. player trades should not be without direct players interaction.

Thats not just how mmo works. That would require people to spend there as much time selling shit as selling shit in their real life jobs. Noones gona do it. If you have actually seen it in any game let me know but i havent.

Again, rich gangs and players could totaly deform prices of items, they will buy all pvp usable stuff

Thats exactly the point of free market. If you have enough money you can manipulate the market. But another property of free market is also that it never runs out of goods. Prices will just go so high that only as much people are willing to buy stuff as are willing to sell it. (supply and demand curves intersection) It works pretty well in real life, in eve online and in wow. Tell me where it is abused to the level people want to ban it and dont use it at all?

Your suggestion would not motivate any PvP interaction at all. Most of the time NPC trades are done via barter which would not be affected by inflation at all. Sometimes stuff is sold for money because NPC traders are the only reasonable caps source of fonline. Sometimes in interest era caps were used also for buying but i doubt that any such situation will occur again. So this suggestion would bring only easier way to buy bases and cars and mercs for noobs in later era but also more caps clean traders so profit for noobs is disputable and there is no change for wealthy players. Waste of dev work imho but still entertaining argument on forum.

[Solar]

Inflation does make sense. Evenually we will have it.

I'm out of time on my lunch and have to get back to work, but I'll explain my view later

[Solar]

Briefly, Inflation is really an encouragement to spend now, interest encourages you to spend.

When we do have inflation it should be applied to everything, increasing rewards, prices to both buy and sell and costs of bases, professions etc.

Savings will depreciate (so money hidden in your base will become less valuable) whilst "stuff" keeps its value. Banks giving interest would then allow you to retain the value better.

As everything else goes up at the same rate it would be mean new players would always be in the same relative situation.


You could also have multiple rates of inflation to rebalance rewards vs costs, drop interest rates to reduce world capital and other fun things

A lot of the previous replies have said this won't stop X or Y and that is correct. But its not meant to and those things will be fixed in other ways.