Other > Closed suggestions
BIG GUNS vs SMALL GUNS
Raegann:
--- Quote from: Lordus on February 15, 2010, 06:42:48 pm ---Raegann
SG is not weak at all. You can actually have very strong SG build, if you can count - Only real good char is sniper build. And that is the problem. Purpose of this topic is to make some changes that will involve existing SG into the PvP.
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I think there is a PvP and "PvP" I mean - sniper build is the only good because of the f*cking nobrainer real time. It's just about one shot and bye, so there is no opportunity to use anything else than max range and aimed. I'm not into the town control etc., but I was quite satisfied with 12 AP SG build in TB fights. Problem is, that most of the PvP is RT, so actually BG and SG both don't need to think a lot. It's not the solution to make more guns like sniper rifle, this will only make useful 2-3 guns instead of 1 and everybody will still use a sniper build, because aimed shots is the only chance.
--- Quote from: Lordus on February 15, 2010, 06:42:48 pm --- Needless to say the costs of SG and BG build can't be compared - and because of this, majority of PvP builds are biggunners. Ehm, where is the mistake in your calculation?
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There is no mistake in the calculation. The fact is, that majority of PvP chars can simply afford it, using alts to craft/ barter etc.
--- Quote from: Lordus on February 15, 2010, 06:42:48 pm --- I don't see point in making SG better or making BG weaker - BG must be strong.. But not easy to handle in combat. If you have advantage in forepower, you must have disadvantege in something else. And i think if biggunners have to think in fight, not only constantinously bursting, that will solve that problem.
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There is already a disadvantage - in the costs. PvP players just aren't NBs and know, how to make their living. I play my BG char as anything else, just the same thinking needed as with EG/ SG. I also do PvM, PvP usually in random encounters and TB, where you must actually think a bit (not every build is 6AP fast shot stupid who can only do a burst and nothing else). If any change, then it shouldn't affect PvM of BG chars and should balance SG guns to make more variety in used types of weapons, not balance SG with BG. So I think in general I agree with you, but I'm also afraid, what would the usual balancing look like (aka "nerf").
--- Quote from: Lordus on February 15, 2010, 06:42:48 pm --- SG have nice critical chances on aimed shots - ONLY SNIPERS.. Do you see that. For you and for many others is Small gun = Sniper build. But this is bad with the numbers of guns which we can craft.
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I have SG and EG chars, none of them actually can be called crit builds or snipers (ofc, it's quite hard to have low to-hit values even on the full range on lvl 21 - so it's hard to say what is sniper and what is not), but I just do a crit like every turn, with the crit chance percentage of aimed shots.
--- Quote from: Lordus on February 15, 2010, 06:42:48 pm ---even if not creating crit build, you can harvest all the equipment from NPC - Yes, but that guns are useless now in PvP and thats the problem.
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You can harvest even new sniper rifles and enough .223 ammo, if you don't want to use any other gun. But I understand your point and quite agree, that most of the weapons are gonna be dismantled or sold.
--- Quote from: Lordus on February 15, 2010, 06:42:48 pm --- I suggest to make snipers build and BG build more difficult to handle in combat (sniper is already difficult) and SG assault riffle class with average damage and small difficulty to handle in combat. So players which use bigguns now will start to think how it use and others will move to assault riffle class. Assault riffle class will be cheapest but also usable in combat, so result will be that many new players should easily join PvP with better chances to survives.
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I think this is not a problem of BG/ SG balance, it's the problem of who shots first in PvP. In this system of PvP there is only choice of BG/ sniper, cause you just can't make small guns burst as mighty as BG bursts, which would make more variety of guns/ builds used. Also sniper build would be more difficult than BG, if there weren't people with mighty hotkey-send-eye-shot-packet, in the current system it's just all about who shots first (you may be honest and click everything manually, but this doesn't change anything, only sometimes you just gonna be slower than your cheating opponent).
PS(Edit): Just because people can afford it, you can't say, that BG isn't much more expensive. I can afford it, but I must work like hell just to enjoy some playing.
Lordus:
I think this is not a problem of BG/ SG balance, it's the problem of who shots first in PvP - Disagree. Sorry, but it looks you dont have many PvP experience. I never used eyeshot hotkey but after last wipe, it is not about first shots in sniper class.
Raegann:
--- Quote from: Lordus on February 15, 2010, 08:24:33 pm ---I think this is not a problem of BG/ SG balance, it's the problem of who shots first in PvP - Disagree. Sorry, but it looks you dont have many PvP experience. I never used eyeshot hotkey but after last wipe, it is not about first shots in sniper class.
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I would like to learn something new from your perspective, so feel free to explain, what is it about, if not who shot first and luck (dealing crit). I just don't have a need to join the standard realtime PvP, because it isn't entertaining enough for me and it's a little bit stupid, so I'm glad for every TB PvP. So I assume you're quite right, I don't have experience with what is called PvP by PvP factions and players, who enjoy town control and swarming place in realtime. But as well as PvP is everything where there is player versus player involved in fighting, I must also say, that almost every opportunity for PvP (= in wasteland-is-harsh it's like every player I encounter) I have is used.. and it's not such little numbers of fights per day. Of course, I totally respect people doing their "PvP" in town control and/or waiting with grid in range for newcomers, cause this is called real PvP here. :)
Selva:
I really dream about a leather jacket+10mm pistols fight, but we only see BGs and snipers, nothing else.
Mostly due to the high levels of HP, 170? 250? come on.
Berko:
I agree with Lordus in all :)
Better weapon for small gun is the sniper(don't have the 'scoped' perk :( ). It use 8 AP for hit in head/eyes (no good chance to cripple in other parts of body so head and eyes for critical) and you need to choice the part of the body you have to hit.
So we have to click a guy, click a part of his body if he is already here .. that take only some second but that system was instored for turn-based mode.
In real time we have the AP penality for aimed shot AND the time to choose a part of body. (double penalty for every small gun who make aimed shot, maybe majority of player actually)
A sniper don't really have time to shoot a guy at 50 hex if he is moving, and difficult to find a 50 hex way without wall/obstacle
The better hit I have make is a critical with a sniper (without finess) : 136 dammage (but most of times 20-40)
Minigun is not the best weapon for biggun, and every biggunner have fast shot. So it use 5(EDIT:6, thanks Attero) AP and only to click on a guy to hit him.
And can easily hit a guy at 30-35 hex (just click on him) to make 80-120 dammage without critic and sometimes more, sometimes more than more (that why we can hit alone in blue suit and 1 minigun 5 men of brocken hills caravans)
So i agree with two problem : action point and distance.
I agree on the fact that biggun can hit to long distance but some of them are machine gun, machine no human, which can destroy some building. Try to hit a rabbit far away with a minigun and you will destroy all around but the rabbit have great chance to be alive. These weapon are only accurate when fixed on something (on ground or on aircraft/helicopter) so maybe make a special perk wich have a great bonus for low range and a penality for long range? but it is not really a solution when we have 240% in the skill :p
And we take sniper rifle because :
Fast-shot smallgun need the bonus rate of fire (5-6 hits in your face! .. without shitty jet :p)
Burst with assault small gunner need some update of their weapon (little more range? have rounds per burst a multiple of ammo capacity?)
Burst with shotgun look to be update? don't tested it.
I think when bonus rate of fire will work again (after wipe?) and update assault weapon, the diversity of small gun will come back a little. And fix sneak will help too. And if someone are hit 3 times in the head with my sniper I want to see him dead, not running :D
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