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Author Topic: Non-proportional fun, and grievers  (Read 8814 times)

Gaizk

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Non-proportional fun, and grievers
« on: August 04, 2011, 12:58:43 am »

I have been pondering this dilemma over the past few days while playing KZ3 and well I thought it was very related on my experiences with Fonline and perhaps most Multiplayer games with players competing with other players

It goes like this, you see a guy with a 29 - 7 record (me :D) however that makes you think by extension if there is a guy with a 7 - 29 record? Now thats a bit of an overstatement, by paying attention to the scoreboards I noticed that while a few scores soar, they do at the expense of SEVERAL other scores, as in, for that 29 - 7 score, there were 5 - 10, 3 - 7, 10 - 14 and so on, and like any competitive-like game, the fun proportionates itself around the players, and while a few people enjoy a good bashing, theres a bigger lot of people that suffer frustration (Then theres the odd bunch that enjoys getting killed but those people aren't adressed in this post, nor do I care about the mediocre way of life)

Now this phenomenon evens itself out as the skill level improves, and you end up with some rather close scores in the higher ups (namely tournaments) and thus the fun is evenly spread, not to mention those who win enjoy the experience far more since they actually hard earned it, and those who lost feel they gave their most and hope next time they will come up top (and boy they do come up eventually and enjoy winning the most, thus who he laughs at the end laughs the best)

Now it doesn't take much thinking to know this happens a lot in Fonline (perhaps this is the one game that happens the most out of all the games I have played in my whole life) and as I have posted on previous posts, this game involves a lot of situations where a someone does something out of a whim and gets a giggle out of it, while the guy in the receiving end of the prank suffers an unproportionate amount of frustration, namely the classic bursters who take down people on protected towns (And face it, theres absolutely no safe way to avoid that) and thus the protected towns become nests for grievers who for shallow moments of joy, end up screwing the hard work of other people

This people is the equivalent of throwing rocks at a crowd of people, sure its gotta worth some laughs, but at what price?

My conclusion is this, why the OVERLY forced PVP mechanics? when you can avoid an immense amount of frustration for the cost of a few kids laughs. Bring matchmaking on random encounters, keep the ever present danger of a harsh wasteland while avoiding the IM FUCKED scenarios that plague this game. A lvl 4 guy killing molerats shouldn't be murdered by 3 lvl 21 guys jumping into his encounter. Have the thieves actually have something at stake while stealing instead of just lulzing their few fails. Actively punish those people that random burst 3, 4, 5, 6 times in a row just for the lulz in protected cities. Keep the obviously dangerous zones (I.E. Unprotected towns and the squares that surround them, and around San Francisco) the way they are, so people know they are risking a lot for going there and will only go when feeling like risking their own necks.

I dont mean to cheapen the experience, just asking the developers to show a little sense on the kind of game they are building, if they want to keep this little nest for immature kids and off the charts mean people, then fucking say so, dont toy around with the bigger, saner population of this game with this, for the lack of a better word, idiotic excuse of freedom

The examples of how to proportionate the fun around this game are wide and varied, and its not my intention to draw them out on this post, im sure theres plenty of people who have thought of that, my point here is sending a word out for the developers, asking them why do they insist on keeping this game the little nest for grievers it currently is.

Im sure we can live off without the few giggles of a random burst, or the few laughs of murdering a defenseless lvl 6 chump (or Alt). At least the bigger part of the community thinks the same (This I dare say, I hope im not wrong about it)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 08:15:19 pm by Graf »
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I think it's much better now. It's strange to see how everyone is a millionare in a wasteland..

Evan

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Re: Non-proportional fun, and grievers
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2011, 03:28:29 am »

Well, I'm just a new player here, only tried 2238 for some weeks ago - but I have to disagree with you. The constant danger other people present provides a so immersive post-apocalyptic atmosphere that no NPC-threat could make. I was killed many times, and I didn't enjoy it a bit. But I do really enjoy living in an environment where one has to be on edge, since anything can happen. I know a lot of games where free and constant grievage would ruin the feeling, but in my opinion, here it only adds to the experience. A random bunch of unmoderated and uncontrolled internet people is a perfect cast for the end of the world.

Also I have to say that reaching level 21 is not that hard, neither getting top gear - even in the current setting. At least keeping it presents a challenge. I think if anything, it should be harder. PKs, do your stuff!
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 03:37:50 am by Evan »
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Sarakin

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Re: Non-proportional fun, and grievers
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2011, 03:34:24 am »

The difference between FOnline and other frag games is, that in other games, you will eventually get better and that motivates weaker players to play. Also, the frustration in being killed isnt that big, because you just lose some time respawning or sth similar. On the other hand, in Fonline, theres almost no learning curve because of randomness and low hp buffer. So after you learn some basics and tactic, you will do as good as some veteran player, just with slight differences. Not to mention, upon dying, you lose equipment and spend significant time returning to former state.
Anyway, its easy to say that system is wrong, you just have to give concrete solutions how to solve these problems. And you should be aware of engine and coding limitations.
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Re: Non-proportional fun, and grievers
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2011, 07:19:44 am »

The game isn't made for the stantart rpg fans. like 10 year old kids from 2nd world countries who stare at the screen with big eyes and drull while playing, picking randomly stats they have no Idea what they mean. Or 17-19 year old americans who use ventrillo even if they don't even need it, and most likely giggle when they see the kids. Its made for people who played Fallout. But to be honest I completed all the fallout series and its still hard to get a nice build. And still if u have a nice build, U can still get minigunned by a random BGer for no reason. The game is best if U play it with friends and rob/kill random people. ::)
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Gaizk

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Re: Non-proportional fun, and grievers
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2011, 09:51:50 am »

17-19 year old americans who use ventrillo even if they don't even need it, and most likely giggle when they see the kids. The game is best if U play it with friends and rob/kill random people. ::)

This.

too much forced random shit flinged around, you get fun out of grieving and the game further encourages that.

I do not approve but those kids you speak of might.
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I think it's much better now. It's strange to see how everyone is a millionare in a wasteland..

Surf

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Re: Non-proportional fun, and grievers
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2011, 10:02:17 am »

A game is fun if you got control over everything your character does and can decide wether the risk of getting shot etc. is worth it or not. High level players ganking lower level players or abusing bugs ( so that you don't even see you're getting killed at map load) with no chance to defend isn't even particular fun or competive and pretty onesided, just like the OP says (non-proportional fun), thus such situations must be terminated. It's no wonder that many people leave the game shortly after experiencing situations where their characters life is depending on random or the boredom of other players with no chance to defend.

Gaizk

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Re: Non-proportional fun, and grievers
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2011, 10:42:48 am »

Im quite glad a mod took a liking to my post, and even added this kind of situation must be terminated.

If so, what plans do the devs have in mind? or what particular ideas or cases are being considered to change this?

I have been playing this game since March of this year, and so far this has only been my only session, however before playing this I already knew several people who used to play this game, people I met playing FOT and true Fallout fans, and out of the  8 I know, only 1 is still playing, half is waiting for wipe while the other is highly offended by the insane amount of grieving in just about everything.

I personally find the OVERLY forced PVP mechanics are what keeps all this frustration going on. Forced PVP on protected towns, forced PVP on obviously unfair situations (3 lvl 21 guys meeting an alone lvl 4 guy on the wastes), and the general lack of punishment on those who prank other people for the lulz (Harassing thieves and random bursters)

Keep the whole wasteland is harsh, keep the forced PVP mechanics, but even the abuse with balanced situations, have low lvl players unable to be pvped unless they go to an unprotected towns or so. Matchmaking at its best
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I think it's much better now. It's strange to see how everyone is a millionare in a wasteland..
Re: Non-proportional fun, and grievers
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2011, 11:03:17 am »

Matchmaking ? In the apocalypse people wuld kill eachother for small chunks of food and drops of water. So if someone has a gun and is starving, a guy full with caps and food wuld be safe.

Matchmaking - The guy with the gun asks nicely "Hello, dear gentleman, I chalenge you to a fair duel to the death" and the guy with the stuff sayes "NO." and basicly the guy no matter how hungry he is he can't get any food because he's in the middle of the wasteland.

How it shuld be - Boom. FOOD !
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Surf

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Re: Non-proportional fun, and grievers
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2011, 11:05:30 am »

Matchmaking ? In the apocalypse people wuld kill eachother for small chunks of food and drops of water. So if someone has a gun and is starving, a guy full with caps and food wuld be safe.

Reality ≠ A game to have fun.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 11:07:15 am by Surf »
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Re: Non-proportional fun, and grievers
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2011, 11:30:20 am »

Reality ≠ A game to have fun.

Then just remove all the stats and stuff and give everyone miniguns and bazookas, and make no map just a small box where people wuld killeachother and respawn. That wuld be fun.
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Rascal

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Re: Non-proportional fun, and grievers
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2011, 11:57:13 am »

Take away from this game that constant risk and danger of getting killed/loosing all carried stuff and its gona be just antoher pathetic Hello Kitty clone.... Its fallout postapo-world where life has absolutely no value, stronger eats weaker. Take that away and this game gona lost all its originality and uniqueness (also immersion aspect).

I agree there is a big problem with a big ammount of people (I think its even majority) who is quiting playing fonline shortly after starting.
Hoever the reasons for this problem are different. There should be some solutions like:

- no respawn 1min cooldown for players up to level... lets say 10 ? (this CD was ment to hit TC players I guess?)
- a lot of quests in cities(every each city) to gain few first levels and earn some simple starting items/cash (every falloutfan is starting his game by seeking some quests but unfortunately here we almost dont have em at all)
- there should be automaticlly created "tent-like" place for first ~6levels for new characteres - its should be that place where this character is starting where u first time launch the game. Now after leaving that place its disapearing from WM it should be "starting-tent" place for new characters. Inside there should be NPC who got in its dialogue a lot of tips to players (some kind of tutorial). (u can nicely do it with RP style 4 example that tutorial guy is telling u that he found u on desert close to death took u heal u and u can stay here for w while. (after that sentance put "[6lvl]") That u should find ur won place and he suggest to collect 10 bramin hides to settle ur own tent.
- starting items shouldnt be such crapp as we have it now, it should be some real stuff like leather jacket (if sg skill tagged)10mmpistol/shotgun + somme ammo 1-2 stimpacks
- wm speed increase
- cooldowns limited
- more tutorials on forum
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Re: Non-proportional fun, and grievers
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2011, 12:09:13 pm »

- no respawn 1min cooldown for players up to level... lets say 10 ? (this CD was ment to hit TC players I guess?)
- a lot of quests in cities(every each city) to gain few first levels and earn some simple starting items/cash (every falloutfan is starting his game by seeking some quests but unfortunately here we almost dont have em at all)
- there should be automaticlly created "tent-like" place for first ~6levels for new characteres - its should be that place where this character is starting where u first time launch the game. Now after leaving that place its disapearing from WM it should be "starting-tent" place for new characters. Inside there should be NPC who got in its dialogue a lot of tips to players (some kind of tutorial). (u can nicely do it with RP style 4 example that tutorial guy is telling u that he found u on desert close to death took u heal u and u can stay here for w while. (after that sentance put "[6lvl]") That u should find ur won place and he suggest to collect 10 bramin hides to settle ur own tent.
- starting items shouldnt be such crapp as we have it now, it should be some real stuff like leather jacket (if sg skill tagged)10mmpistol/shotgun + somme ammo 1-2 stimpacks
- wm speed increase
- cooldowns limited
- more tutorials on forum
- 60 seconds is too much for you? Death is already almost nothing, well I would like it, so I can cripple guards on respawn points faster without waiting 1 minute between punches.
- "a lot of quests in cities", yeah, devs didn't know about that, they didn't know that FOnline: 2238 server should have quests, they don't even bother about it? Quests are pain in ass to make, you won't see many quests for so short period of time.
- Already, you can start rail line gang quest and use its location as your tent. You can start raiders' quest and use location as a tent, you can start and advance Man's Job quest to final stage and use that location as your tent.
- oh noes, making alot alts just to create alot jackets?
- yes, but devs like waiting.
- yes, but devs like waiting.
- you can do that.



THe learning curve is quite not nice. I got 3 friends 2 play and only 1 of them remained. The others went to play Hello Kitty online (ftw). I think it wuld be a nice Idea through a new character to have a protection. NOT to get killed the 1st 24 hours of playing. That way he wuldn't be able to kill/die and that way he will have time to gear up and learn stuff about the game so they're preapared for the trollish rough cruel dangerous full of bad people wasteland. During those 24 hours they wuld be able to PvE. I saw it in other games and it works out pretty fine.
FOnline isn't other game, and you'll see alts for 24 hours working as immortal blockers/scouts and other.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 12:31:15 pm by RavenousRat »
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Re: Non-proportional fun, and grievers
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2011, 12:28:26 pm »

THe learning curve is quite not nice. I got 3 friends 2 play and only 1 of them remained. The others went to play Hello Kitty online (ftw). I think it wuld be a nice Idea through a new character to have a protection. NOT to get killed the 1st 24 hours of playing. That way he wuldn't be able to kill/die and that way he will have time to gear up and learn stuff about the game so they're preapared for the trollish rough cruel dangerous full of bad people wasteland. During those 24 hours they wuld be able to PvE. I saw it in other games and it works out pretty fine.

PS - if by KZ3 u mean Killzone 3, that game is awsome ! ^_^
« Last Edit: August 04, 2011, 12:31:44 pm by EvilKhan_BG »
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Rascal

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Re: Non-proportional fun, and grievers
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2011, 01:07:33 pm »

Quote
- 60 seconds is too much for you? Death is already almost nothing, well I would like it, so I can cripple guards on respawn points faster without waiting 1 minute between punches.
so just make those guards immortal/uncripple-able, that 60s is antoher birck into festival of waiting wall on 2238
Quote
- "a lot of quests in cities", yeah, devs didn't know about that, they didn't know that FOnline: 2238 server should have quests, they don't even bother about it? Quests are pain in ass to make, you won't see many quests for so short period of time.
this is that really important content that is missing and its obvious truth
Quote
- Already, you can start rail line gang quest and use its location as your tent. You can start raiders' quest and use location as a tent, you can start and advance Man's Job quest to final stage and use that location as your tent.
ur even use brain or what ? yes I know about such stuff but newcomers knows shitt and im talking here(the whole post) about making game more friendly to newcomers and prevent them from making instant ragequit after loosing all stuf for the 5th time in a row
Quote
- oh noes, making alot alts just to create alot jackets?
if ur "getting rich" plann gona base on that then good luck buahah, and as always its very easy to prevent such situation 4 example lower prices for such items that it wont gona pay off the effort
- yes, but devs like waiting.
- yes, but devs like waiting.
Quote
- you can do that.
Im not dev of 2238 whos goal should be to make game attract more and more players and im involved into another fonline project soo its not really my job.

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avv

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Re: Non-proportional fun, and grievers
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2011, 01:58:29 pm »

Giggles or not, hard to tell. It's true that there's no consequences for randomly murdering someone, but if there were mechanics that would for example spawn bounty hunters on your ass if you did, it'd be even worse.
Groups of armed players usually shoot bluesuits because they might be scouts or looters. Some innocent nuub might accidentally loot an expensive item because he has no clue whats going on. If he wants to "help" a group to fight another group, that's out of question aswell because he doesn't know who's enemy and might do friendly fire. No group of armed guys allow a random bluesuit to walk among them while they are camping a town.

In the end, when a nuub dies enough times he starts to care about items and not his life.

One thing that sucks is that it takes longer for total noob who has nothing to get a tent than a pro player to get 10 metal armors, plasma, 10 assault rifles and 5000 5mm ap.

Even if some pro suddenly lost everything (bases, chars, items, friends), it'd take him a quita a while to get those ten skins for the tent.
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