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[jonny rust]

This is a thought I had after reading Rat's HtH suggestion.

normally when an opponent gets right in your face a two handed gun isn't nearly as effective as it's easily pushed aside or taken control of by your opponent.

So I'm suggesting that at when fighting humans at 1 hex rifles and other two handed guns get an accuracy penalty. This is obviously a suggestion to help out the melee guys, but I really think they need it; after all by the time the get 1 hex from the shooter they have probably already sustained a serious amount of damage and should get a bonus for having made it that far to now give them a chance to turn things around.

However it would be nice if the rifle could be used as a blunt weapon with a chance to knock your opponent back as retaliation, It would make use of your melee skill but perhaps also take into account your gun skill to supplement the attack. This would most likely deteriorate your weapon faster than usual. Using rifles as blunt weapons has been suggested by Grommok before but I think it is a good flip side to this suggestion as to not leave riflemen high and dry when getting rushed. It could just use the hit animation until we enter 3D. Alternatively, riflemen can keep a sidearm ready for such a situation.

As for big gunners, I think this should still apply because while it will be harder for them to retaliate against such an attack (most of them can't use sidearms and I don't think large guns make very effective bludgeoning weapons) if a melee guy actually makes it past the spray of an LSW or survives getting pounded by rockets to charge his enemy, then he really, really deserves it imho. 

note; to make this less exploitable the accuracy penalty for the gunner should reflect the melee or HtH skill of the attacker.

[RavenousRat]

LSW or bazooka costs more than bare fists, why bare fists should win LSW or bazooka?

(yes mauser can win LSW and cheaper, but it's because critical system isn't made well and based on pure randomness and you can instakill guy in BA with a rock)

Edit: I'm taking into account if it'll be high penalty to accuracy, but if it'll be low penalty, then it's useless and noone would see a difference.

[Grommok]

Using rifles as blunt weapons has been suggested by someone else before but I think it is a good flip side to this suggestion as to not leave riflemen high and dry when getting rushed.

Just to point, by me.
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=17893.msg147935#msg147935
Look for the suggestion named "Meele Guns".
However penalizing rifles in short range is a good idea. I didnt tought about it. And dont worry, i'm not pissed of the fact you stole my idea, atleast you told that you did.

[jonny rust]

LSW or bazooka costs more than bare fists, why bare fists should win LSW or bazooka?

(yes mauser can win LSW and cheaper, but it's because critical system isn't made well and based on pure randomness and you can instakill guy in BA with a rock)

chances are fists still wont win against these guns, that was my last point. But who uses a bazooka at point blank anyway? besides it's not that these guns can't be used at all at this range, its just that their accuracy drops to simulate the chance that the close range fighter might take control of the end of the gun. it would be 9akin to your idea) a DnD roll perhaps, melee/hth skill v.s. gun skill.

note: Keep in mind, this suggestion exists only to tip the scales slightly in the melee fighters favor if he makes it past all the gun fire while charging his opponent. at that point he is already very damaged and a slight (and realistic) advantage like this is not really much to ask for imo. 

Just to point, by me.
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=17893.msg147935#msg147935
Look for the suggestion named "Meele Guns".
However penalizing rifles in short range is a good idea. I didnt tought about it. And dont worry, i'm not pissed of the fact you stole my idea, atleast you told that you did.

sorry, was to lazy to check who posted that, just knew I had seen it. I wouldn't take credit for you're idea though. I only brought it up here because I think its a good retaliation to help balance my suggestion for a rifleman. think of it as retroactive validation for your suggestion

edited the original post to credit you with the idea

[Grommok]

Thanks. One always likes when it's work is reconized.

[Reginmund]

oh boy i sure hope we don't forget about the arguments we had when solar (i think it was solar who so kindly shed some insight to upcoming features) told us of a little perk called "in your face" or something like that i cant be bothered searching for it. In that perk it was a 50% chance to miss bursting when the hth character got into 1 hex from his ranged opponent. Question here is what sort of penalty do you think of applying i.e. what amount of -%to hit or other malus are you thinking?

[jonny rust]

oh boy i sure hope we don't forget about the arguments we had when solar (i think it was solar who so kindly shed some insight to upcoming features) told us of a little perk called "in your face" or something like that i cant be bothered searching for it. In that perk it was a 50% chance to miss bursting when the hth character got into 1 hex from his ranged opponent. Question here is what sort of penalty do you think of applying i.e. what amount of -%to hit or other malus are you thinking?

well I think that since this is supposed to simulate a melee fighter taking control of a ranged fighters weapon (to the extent where it is no longer as accurate) the penalty should reflect the melee/HtH skill of the attacker. I figure this way it will be less exploitable as not just anyone can rush a rifleman to decrease his accuracy.

So for example for every 10% the melee fighter has over 100% on his melee or HtH skill, the gunman gets a 5% reduction to his or her accuracy. If the melee fighter has 200% skill then the rifleman's accuracy drops to 45% once the fighter is within one hex.

to keep it from getting over powered you might need an additional 20% over 200% in order to create further 5% penalties to the rifleman's accuracy.

this is how I was thinking the general mechanic might work and the numbers are completely debatable as I have not given them too much thought.
 
 

[John Porno]

this would take all the skill out of a burster fight. 1hexing is crucial in places like reno, otherwise it would come down to who took more ammo/more stims.

Melees have to be buffed in a different way.

Besides, a tank build could take up to 6 ranged bursts of an avenger. The problem is not getting to the enemy but actually getting the upperhand once you are at him.

[jonny rust]

this would take all the skill out of a burster fight. 1hexing is crucial in places like reno, otherwise it would come down to who took more ammo/more stims.

as stated this penalty would only apply to two-handed weapons so a burster could easily switch to an SMG, if he's not already using one anyway, to take care of a melee fighter at close range.

Besides, a tank build could take up to 6 ranged bursts of an avenger. The problem is not getting to the enemy but actually getting the upperhand once you are at him.

...yea...  that's what this is about.

[Grommok]

A buster cannot easily switch to SMG, if he uses LSW or Miniguns. The real problem, is to be lucky enough to get 1hex from a LSW or Minigun. This could be resolved also along another problem, the bursts that make more damages then a rocket (atleast in my mind. If i'm wrong, please prove me so). For that a small perk, "Hardened Skin" or something like this, that reduces by 25% for rank 1 and 50% for rank 2 damage from bullets.

[jonny rust]

A buster cannot easily switch to SMG, if he uses LSW or Miniguns. The real problem, is to be lucky enough to get 1hex from a LSW or Minigun. This could be resolved also along another problem, the bursts that make more damages then a rocket (atleast in my mind. If i'm wrong, please prove me so). For that a small perk, "Hardened Skin" or something like this, that reduces by 25% for rank 1 and 50% for rank 2 damage from bullets.

Like you said, getting close to a guy with an LSW isn't easy anyway, and if you do get there, he can still use it but since his accuracy is lowered less bullets are likely to hit you.

Instead of higher bullet DR I would like to see more AC bonuses just because not being hit is more believable than still standing with 100 5mm rounds stuck in you

[John Porno]

with the right build, it's not too hard to get close the the enemy, dont even try to debate that. The only Problem is as I said that you still can't do much when you are finally in front of the enemy.

Basically, the best melee char istill has less dps than a throwing char with 15range.

Also, even if the enemy is unable to 1hex you, he can still run. Due to the laggy engine you can always run away from a melee if you know how to.

All in all, your suggestion does not solve the problem, it is the wrong approach. On top of that it greatly interferes with other aspects of the fighting system that don't have to be affected in the first place.

Bottom line, no.

[Michaelh139]

The U.S. Army Rangers are able to fight hand to hand at point blank with their rifles, they developed a style to quickly get the enemy into a position to fire at them.  Thus, such a thing would be unrealistic for a skilled Smallgunner, because he would do everything in his power to make sure he had a shot at the enemy just like the rangers.

[Grommok]

not being hit is more believable than still standing with 100 5mm rounds stuck in you

So, you read Real Injuries, one of my suggestions?

[spears]

I read somwhere that all the scoped weapons will actually get the scoped perk, i guess you could add on a similar but smaller penalty to the long range weapon perk.