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Author Topic: Gathering after wipe  (Read 10361 times)

Surf

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Re: Gathering after wipe
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2011, 08:13:37 pm »

It's not fun to stop whatever you were doing and going mining every 20 mins. It's funnier to concentrate on one thing at a time and do it as effectively as possible.

aka munchkining

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People want to have fun. To have fun, they need items because items have comprehensive qualities.

Yes, because there is only one way to aquire items, right? Oh...
But you'll now will say that you want it as fast as possible! (instant gratification, autofellatio, as written above) Who cares about buying the armor from some other player (pff, one would need to interact with other people, disgusting!) when you can just cheat, use a proxy or w/e and do the same thing with your crafter alt, right?! After all, the poor players ofcourse are forced to cheat.

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Plus they have friends that need services and help aswell, so some puny game rules are nothing compared to the urge to achieve shared victory with a team.

I don't want to know you people in real life if each "puny rule" is just smuggled around with cheap methods and cheating.

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Seriously, don't hit the messenger. People here are telling how everyday things are ingame, handing out protips helps nothing. If problems related to cooldowns aren't acknowledged, players sure as hell won't stop cheating just because they are told not to. Banning won't help, nothing else will except changing the system cheat-proof. If nothing is done, players will just shrug and continue like always.

No one was handing out protips, I just showed you examples that not everyone is munchkining his way through the game to get everything as fast as possible ignoring the rules just because they don't like mechanic XY. Why even set up rules then? Would you appreciate if a GM would pop up in a town, and set it to non-pvp "just for the lulz"? Would you understand when a dev shows up in your base and removes all the items there for some amibigious reasons? Wouldn't it be totally cool if all the team suddenly doesn't give a single shit about rules anymore? Since you don't seem to give much to rules, you probably won't care either, hm?


Look, I even agree with you all that the cooldowns are set a bit too high. I've never really had a problem with them since I had enough to do with my character, but I see where you are coming from. But they are needed for some parts as we saw in previous "seasons". If it would be me, I would just set every one of them to only half the time, or maybe just the 1/4 of it. But let's see how it will be after the wipe.

Wichura

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Re: Gathering after wipe
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2011, 08:21:15 pm »

Oh the pity cheaters, they are "forced" to cheat.  :'(
Even if not forced, people are encouraged to alting and cheating. It's simple - with fast relogs and mining alts you are able to mine a lot more stuff than with one character. That's the way it goes, people are like water - always are looking for the shortest and the easiest way to go through.
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Re: Gathering after wipe
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2011, 08:40:13 pm »

Actually Wichura is quite right by cheating the game is easier and jailing or banning can't do much against it since the chance to get caught is small, still there are players who don't use fast relogs and dual logging not because they can't but because they don't want to. So far I didn't dual log why because I can manage without that too.
Getting items is easy and to have fun there is no need for plasma rifle and BA or CA mkII. Its easy to roll and even cooler with metal armor or combat leather jacket and as far as weapons go its possible to kill a fighter who wears a combat armor with a mauser, heh even with a pipe rifle if you go in turn based combat... but for serious fights the best is fn fall, rocket launchers and laser rifles all of these are easy to get.
Personally as I stated previously the removal of cooldowns would give a valid reason to camp the mines with mercs
Cooldowns have positive things too right now nobody can gather mercs at the mine and say they are there so I can mine safely but if cooldown is gone there is nothing to force a stop. Therefore a group of 10  can say that all we want is to mine and to not get killed we bring our mercs with us oh and its true we are from one faction but we have lower carry weight so we go in a group of 10. Though new system will change mercs still 10 player should be able bring a lot of mercs there if not they would bring 20 char or more...
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Senocular

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Re: Gathering after wipe
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2011, 08:48:44 pm »

You can just do something different with your character until the previous cooldown is set to 0 again. But oh no! People want instant gratification, autofellatio all the time!
Does watching videos on YouTube in the meantime counts?
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avv

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Re: Gathering after wipe
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2011, 08:50:42 pm »

Yes, because there is only one way to aquire items, right? Oh...
But you'll now will say that you want it as fast as possible! (instant gratification, autofellatio, as written above) Who cares about buying the armor from some other player (pff, one would need to interact with other people, disgusting!) when you can just cheat, use a proxy or w/e and do the same thing with your crafter alt, right?! After all, the poor players ofcourse are forced to cheat.

Actually gangs and their members (who are also top providers of player interaction) are the top cheaters since they have to compete against other gangs or they get stomped in tc. So player interaction speeds up the desire to cheat.
And what comes to getting everythin asap, that's how it is. The game rewards those with lots of good items, characters and whatever property. It gives power over other players, or power to withstand the attempts of other players.

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I don't want to know you people in real life if each "puny rule" is just smuggled around with cheap methods and cheating.

There are groups that do not cheat, but they are then stomped by the cheaters and might leave the game if nothing is done about it.

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No one was handing out protips, I just showed you examples that not everyone is munchkining his way through the game to get everything as fast as possible ignoring the rules just because they don't like mechanic XY.

But it's not helping. Player's wont change their habits and goals if the game allows them to continue.

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Why even set up rules then? Would you appreciate if a GM would pop up in a town, and set it to non-pvp "just for the lulz"? Would you understand when a dev shows up in your base and removes all the items there for some amibigious reasons? Wouldn't it be totally cool if all the team suddenly doesn't give a single shit about rules anymore? Since you don't seem to give much to rules, you probably won't care either, hm?

Rules only matter if they are monitored and criminals are punished.

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Bartosz

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Re: Gathering after wipe
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2011, 11:30:40 pm »

What can change the nature of the man?

I really see no possibility for this discussion to end - some are stating that they are doing what they are doing because game mechanics are like they are, and some are stating that they just do not like such approach. Everything is fine - everyone has own opinion on that.

Though the problem is still unsolved, yet I'm unsure if it can be solved as easily as some of you are stating ('just remove damned waiting!').
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Johnnybravo

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Re: Gathering after wipe
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2011, 11:47:57 pm »

Well here's something from my POV:

Currently gathering is indeed boring and irritating if you try to do anything better alone, as there's little you can do with your own resources unless you wait a lot.
I've got no problem with the existence of cooldown, but time frame you have to wait is very unlucky - too little to complete another job and too long to just wait it on place.
Was it up to hour it'd be little problem for one to deal with it, even if you could mine only little more resources than in current 20min frame.
With the stuff you create, travelling speeds, etc, you really feel sorry for yourself by not just buying it (Laser Pistol costs 340 fully charged, creating empty one costs you minning for metal parts, alloys and venturing for electronic parts - all of this takes much longer than just shoveling shit for one.)
BUT
That's for doing it ALONE in MULTIPLAYER game.
There's little problem with anything mentioned above, as you can choose good strategy, have multiple friends do one action to accumulate resources and then you can just craft.
There are absolutely no restrictions except for carry weight for gathering, and that makes stuff easy.
If anything items were so much spread that nobody was interested in gathering anymore. Not saying crafting was easy, but economics still resulted in item overflow.

If anything I'd love to know about crafting facilities, as that's what really sets pace of item obtaining and the difficulty of doing so (hello MFCs noteverworthtobecrafted), for gathering just get more gatherer friends.
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Re: Gathering after wipe
« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2011, 12:34:45 am »

hmm.... I don't like the mugging. If I say that, can there be like a 20 year cool down? When I mine, I eventualy cap hit the cooldown max and then I start to multi-task. I come back to see all my work is gone.. and some jerk running away with a grin.  :'(

same goes with ugly PKers... but 1 step at a time  ;D
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Re: Gathering after wipe
« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2011, 02:46:40 am »

I have 300 repair and have the same cooldown as someone with 20 repair. There should be a skill based balanced similar to first aid.

On gathering I have thought about using current stats to adjust how things are gathered. Something like if ST is 7+ you will get 2 ores, ST 10 will get 3. Along with a high EN that will add a lower amount of gathering time added per item. Outdoors could raise the cooldown time limit.
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Re: Gathering after wipe
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2011, 03:33:38 am »

I have 300 repair and have the same cooldown as someone with 20 repair. There should be a skill based balanced similar to first aid.

On gathering I have thought about using current stats to adjust how things are gathered. Something like if ST is 7+ you will get 2 ores, ST 10 will get 3. Along with a high EN that will add a lower amount of gathering time added per item. Outdoors could raise the cooldown time limit.

sounds like another min maxed alt which isn't exactly the sought after answer. What we can do is wait and see how the crafting system has changed so that we can judged whether or not the gathering cooldown problem still applies. iirc tier 3 will involve schematics but will it be as simple as obtain it once and remember how to make ca, ba, camk2 from then on out or will it be required each time? and will you be able to stay safe in faction base and craft away with not a care in the world in the simple workbench (or will there be special facilities linked with domination mode or dungeons created or simply making sierra or mariposa more attractive places)?

gathering may be a bitch but it ultimately leads to crafting and what about their cooldowns? oh wait i remember... alts alts alts, fast relog, multilogging etc...
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Re: Gathering after wipe
« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2011, 04:36:21 am »

can second on the encouraging of "cheating" and safe hq mining.

since i started mining & crafing on reloging, i was making 48 hq ores per 2 hours; crafting BAs, DKS and plasma rifles took 26 per 2 hours. I had to "mine" hq minerals only once, 12 slaves mined 600+ for me in a few short hours and i still have 200+ left. i estabilished myself in a week, when i was selling 1,3 mil worth of stuff to C88.

in all this time in redding HQ mine i wasnt shot once. there was one incident, when some crafty sonofa stole 4 ores from me when mining. and thats about it. all my mining characters were lvl 1 and had 26 hp.

maybe the hq mining should not be that aviable. maybe you should learn it by a quest with some reqs, as you did in FO2 with skinning geckos. im not saying that would put a stop to the reloging mining, but it sure would make it a bit harder. and harder aint exactly what you go for when you are looking for the easy way to get through.
and its hq ores, aint it. should be mined carefuly and with some expertise. im sure my 26 hp ncr-basement dweler didnt know shit bout how to recognise HQ ores from brahmin goo.

maybe cooldowns should stick to clients. as reloging timeouts do. maybe hq mines should be more hostile than ants or one alien that makes you create another character for mining if you accidentaly aggroed him once.

and.
not to keep it short. irradiation is not actually gonna do well in this. have you ever wondered, where you can meet the cyrilic named guy that holds the "cat burglar" place in your statistics? Glow, thats where. You will be lucky if you meet him without "off" after his name. Be sure to check him with burst or steal, you will be surprised what ammount of good stuff, as well as radiation drugs this guy has.
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avv

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Re: Gathering after wipe
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2011, 11:04:30 am »

What can change the nature of the man?

I really see no possibility for this discussion to end - some are stating that they are doing what they are doing because game mechanics are like they are, and some are stating that they just do not like such approach. Everything is fine - everyone has own opinion on that.

Talking about that cheating is no use, it happens and will happen unless it's not encouraged anymore.

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Though the problem is still unsolved, yet I'm unsure if it can be solved as easily as some of you are stating ('just remove damned waiting!').

What can be said for sure is that materials from bases need to go. They are simply autoclicker baits and nothing more. Either for example fibers, meat and fruits have to be tended with materials carried from outside of the base, extracted from some dangerous location or they have to be limited and included in the base price.

Like said, risking is the key. Since death has no meaning, players need to risk their gear to get more gear. I heard encounters and farming them will be buffed, if disassembling weapons provides materials for other supplies it might do it. Just need to make sure those encounters can't be abused with insane powerbuilds or other exploits. And that high science doesn't provide more parts, or everyone is forced to make a science-alt.
Encounter-based materials, like junk, wood and healing powder parts could always be guarded by hostile npcs. Also instead of having to look for them by spamming maps, those areas with materials should be easy to find rather than being randomized. This way the rate of gathering is set by how fast you get rid of their guardians. There could be more and less dangerous areas. The more dangerous - the more materials in encounter. Encounters are good because if you die, you lose your gear. If you leave, you get nothing and the next enc has full enemies again. Only abuse is to use a car because it leaves a visible mark on world map. That could be solved by not allowing players to find materials with a car, or allow distresses in those places so that nobody can come there with a car.

It may sound dumb that everything involves fighting npcs like it was diablo. But managing through the hitpoint-reducing strikes of npcs and dealing damage to them in effective manner is one of the best puzzles there is already ingame. If someone comes up with some clever idea for a puzzle that doesn't involve fighting to find materials that'd be great aswell.

Unsafe mines are pretty fine, players themselves set the difficulty there. Sometimes it's non-existing, sometimes overwhelming but there's always a danger present. Problem is that the level of danger is too random compared to the equipment of the miners. Because of this hq mats could be also achieved elsewhere, like from those farmable encounters.
If there comes an occasion where no pks are present in the mine and someone just gets to mine hundreds and hundreds of ores, there could be some npcs spawning and harassing him. The npcs would loot and leave if the player died so that he can't come back and spam the npc to death.

Safe mines could simply have a global limit that restocks random ammount of ores each 20mins. That's the simpliest way, it's like a cooldown but unavoidable. Maybe the ores get depleted occasionally but safe mines are basically like breadline, handing out free stuff.
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Re: Gathering after wipe
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2011, 12:48:56 pm »

you are somehow right. though there already is too much shooting for a fallout game. sending more aspects towards this way aint gonna help that. not talking about there is something wrong with getting gear for gear only. that threatens by shortage and i believe thats a reason you get something like crafting anyway.

lets not forget not everyone likes to be shooting or shot at. and these people could easily be the last player-"spice" there is left.

getting rid of base supplies would be wrong too. the ammount of mats a real crafter has to keep stacked is almost insane for such a concept. thats beside the rp aspect. i can hardly believe anyone would ever settle in a place that would not provide at least something for him.

sticking cooldowns to the client should be much more effective way how to avoid relogging. might encourage dualloging or even proxies, but thats far harder than simple relogging, is actually considered "criminal behavior" and, in most cases, is easily detectable.

irradiating hq mines and disabling logging off in irradiated areas (same way as its done in the jail) could be another way. and might help the glow, too.

honestly i dont think anything else than hq mats is actual problem. i very rarely see huge ammounts of any mats at traders, that would suggest some "wrong" way of getting these mats. autoclicking fibers for insane supplies and then selling it in any other way than raw is pure nonsense and if anyone wants to go through with that, i say let the poor bastard do it. noone is gonna relog to gather lq ores, if, they will get a pack of slaves. and as far as i understand that, that is getting redone. so, actually, what.
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avv

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Re: Gathering after wipe
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2011, 03:47:33 pm »

lets not forget not everyone likes to be shooting or shot at. and these people could easily be the last player-"spice" there is left.

The point is that there should always be some risk or challenge if you want to receive something. Current challenge is to combat the time sinks related to transporting yourself to material extraction locations. Instead of patience the challenge could be something more exciting and fast, fighting is the simple solution but catering for that differend player "spice" would be cool too. Just can't think of something this other set of players would enjoy doing so that it doesn't become plain grind.

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getting rid of base supplies would be wrong too. the ammount of mats a real crafter has to keep stacked is almost insane for such a concept. thats beside the rp aspect. i can hardly believe anyone would ever settle in a place that would not provide at least something for him.

If gathering was fast and unlimited, lack of base gathering mats wouldn't be such a big deal. Bases are used for item storage and car park for gangs mostly. The purpose is to send players to outdoors rather than sitting in their base gathering fruits, meat or fiber.

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irradiating hq mines and disabling logging off in irradiated areas (same way as its done in the jail) could be another way. and might help the glow, too.

Thought about this, but then big gangs would make one tough anti-rad char to scout and keep rest of the players on worldmap. If the worldmap is radiated, they will move to distance and use a car. But it could be tested.
 
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honestly i dont think anything else than hq mats is actual problem.

This isn't about economics but getting the mats so that it's enjoyable and cheat-free. And beleave me, fiber-autoclicker is real and why not meat as well.
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Re: Gathering after wipe
« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2011, 05:20:21 pm »

i have too agree with avv. putting these things on the map in random encounters gets people out there in places where they can encounter each other, also it would help for people who hang around in the south because they wouldn't need to walk or drive to the north everytime they want a few HQ ores. right now theres no one roaming the waste exept noobs and hardcore pkers who have time to travel for hours searching players or who go in SF to fight TB.

everyone is either leveling, gathering in some town or base and crafting, and after that i guess they do TC or something because i never see them in the waste anymore. :/

I really miss the times when u couldn't walk the map without encountering someone and there were people fighting in large groups all over wasteland, and this idea seems to promote at the very least getting people out there instead of being on log timer limbo for hours to make 1 BA and a gun or something thats just not worth it.
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