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[Badger]

General Perks discussion to stop the critical hit thread steering even further off topic. I realise perk tweaking is coming soon, but I'd be interested in just discussing perks - what you use, what you don't, which ones do you think are overpowered, underpowered, total waste of time, whatever.

I realise perk tweaking is WIP, so if there's crafting perks or similar on the way, do bring them up.

For reference, here's the perk table. Also, some of Solar's WIP dodging/anti-crit perks.

Anti Crit  
        
Quick Recovery   3   AG 6   Effects of Knockout/down/lost turn are reduced to 1/3rd   1
Stonewall   6   ST 6   En Roll to ignore knockout, En-5 roll to ignore knockdown   1
Iron Grip   9   ST 6   En Roll to ignore Arm Cripple, En-5 roll to ignore Weapon Drop   1
Man of Steel   12   En 6 + Str 6   Gives -10 on the critical table to hits targetting you   1

Dodging    
        
HtH Evade   3   Unarmed/Melee 75%   Gives 20% AC if only Unarmed or Melee weapons are in either hand   1
HtH Evade+   6   Unarmed/Melee 150%   Gives 40% AC if only Unarmed or Melee weapons are in either hand   1
Dodger   9   AG 8   Gives +20 to AC   1
Dodger+   12   AG 10   Gives +40 to AC   1

First discussion point: Would reduced SPECIAL requirements break the game? I'm inclined to think that it would lead to more varied character builds, as you don't have to build your character around getting Bonus Rate of Fire.

[Ganado]

My Ideas:

• Educated should be available at level 3.
• Adrenaline Rush  should be +2 ST at 50% HP, mechanics should be changed to allow stat to go over 10
• Bonus Move should be combined into one Perk
• Faster Healing should give +5 or higher healing rate, maybe make it twice as likely to heal crippled limbs.
• Quick Recovery can half knockout time too.
• Pyromaniac should be applied to molotov cocktails
• Pathfinder increases based on Outdoorsman level too *
• Rad Resistance could be +25% resistance
• Silent Death Agility requirement needs to be lowered
• Earlier Sequence should be combined into one Perk (+6 Seq)
• Cautious Nature should work for all encounters, let PE increase above 10 for positioning **
• Healer should give more bonus, or make Luck equivalent to 10 for FA/Doc purposes while giving default bonus in addition
• Gain _____ should give bonuses above 10 (same issue as previously stated)

*Solar said this in another thread
**Lexx said this in another thread, I added "above 10" part.

First discussion point: Would reduced SPECIAL requirements break the game?

There should be some special requirements, but none too high. Anything requiring more than 6, and no more than 8 in any case, of any SPECIAL stat is pushing it too high.

Some stats have requirements that don't match what a person would build their character for, and Perks should be benefits for having a type of build, not having to make your build around a Perk, I agree.

[Invincible]

Some stats have requirements that don't match what a person would build their character for, and Perks should be benefits to having a type of build, not having to make your build around a Perk, I agree.


This.

[RavenousRat]

My Ideas:

• Educated should be available at level 3.
• Adrenaline Rush  should be +2 ST at 50% HP, mechanics should be changed to allow stat to go over 10
• Bonus Move should be combined into one Perk
• Faster Healing should give +5 or higher healing rate, maybe make it twice as likely to heal crippled limbs.
• Quick Recovery can half knockout time too.
• Pyromaniac should be applied to molotov cocktails
• Pathfinder increases based on Outdoorsman level too *
• Rad Resistance could be +25% resistance
• Silent Death Agility requirement needs to be lowered
• Earlier Sequence should be combined into one Perk (+6 Seq)
• Cautious Nature should work for all encounters, let PE increase above 10 for positioning **
• Healer should give more bonus, or make Luck equivalent to 10 for FA/Doc purposes while giving default bonus in addition
• Gain _____ should give bonuses above 10 (same issue as previously stated)

Educated equal to Gain Intelligence perk, I don't think such perks should be on 3rd level, it's almost like More Criticals. I think it should be changed with Lifegiver and add its bonus retroactively from previous levels, so if you'll take it on higher level it'll give you as if you took it from 1st.
Adrenaline rush... still noone will use it, who needs an additional 2 ST when thier HP below 50%? Even if you're melee, who cares about those 2 max damage?
Bonus move perk is pure TB perk in a game with RT+TB modes, making it better only because it's useful in TB isn't good idea, because if character is taking this perk, it means he's PvE looter or PvP TB trapper, if player is making TB traps it doesn't mean it should safe him 1 perk slot.
Faster Healing still useless, noone ever will take this perk, may be only if it'll be some kind of high level perk equal to BRoF (15+ level, so you'll suffer alot taking it, because you'll have no lifegiver, or no brof, or no weapon handling or other anti-crit perk), and it'll regenerate X HP at real time, may be X equal to Healing Rate every 10 seconds.
At 1st post it's said that Quick Recovery will work for all stunning effects and will make them only 33% working. So you'll be knocked down/out or losing turn for 1/3 of time.
If with this perk molotovs will be weaker than plasma grenades (I think they will), noone will take this perk. If molotovs will be stronger than plasma grenades with this perk, then noone will use frag and plasma grenades, because you'll see lots pyromaniacs using only molotovs.
Pathfinder -
Rad Resistance can be removed from perks if only radiation won't be added to more places than Glow, or if players will have radiated weapon in PvP or something.
Silent Death even with no agility reqs will be still useless, because of current sneaking.
Earlier Sequence is the same story as Bonus Move, in PvE noone will take it, so it's only for PvP TB traps, what is still useless, even if it'll be combined in 1 perk, I think 1st perk will be always stonewall/toughness/awareness/other anti-crit perk possible, and noone will sacrifice those perks for additional sequence if only it's very strange TB build.
Do you really think there're idiots who will waste perk on Cautious Nature?
Don't know about Healer, it's weak in comparison to other perks, it's better additional LG or toughness or more crit or better crit or anti-crit perk or even action boy or weapon handling than heal more HP with FA...
Gain Ability should be allowed at <12 level, may be even on 3rd level, because there're plenty perks that simulate ability points and working much better. 3rd level is too much, because there're no such perks, they start from 6th, but even those perks are usually simulating more than 1 pure SPECIAL point, as example more critical is equal to 5 LK for burster, it's like 18/21 perk for them, while for snipers it's mostly like Gain Ability: Luck, so 12th, example Lifegiver is overpowered imba perk and obivously should be nerfed, while base HP without perks should be higher, but it's 12th level perk, the same as Gain Ability, even if'll be possible to go over 10 stats points with Gain Ability, it shouldn't be able on 12th level, better 3rd level, may be someone will even take this perk sometime, so most of snipers will have 11 LK and/or 13 PE (Gain Ability + Sharpshooter), because noone will take this perk after 12th level, even 15th, because 12th is always lifegiver.

Edit:
Just look at this:
There're 7 perks.
-1 as 3rd level perk: it's toughness/stonewall, may be awareness +later can be some other anti-crit perk.
-2 as 6th and 9th perks: more criticals, better criticals, bonus ranged damages, sharpshooter, etc.
-1 as 12th perk - Lifegiver.
So you have only 3 perks left, which will be used on perks that already listed at 6th/9th/12th perks +BRoF/Weapon Handling.
There're no more perk slots for your Cautious Natures or Faster Healing or Adrenaline Rushes or Pyromaniacs or Rad Resistances and other crap.

Edit#2:
And if they will add more perk slots, then it'll be used with all anti-crit perks, Action Boys, Gain Abilities, snipers will start picking BRDs, everyone will have x2 LG, x2 toughnesses, awarenesses, etc., because all those perks are better than... useless perks.

[JovankaB]

I agree with RavenousRat about Adrenaline Rush, who cares about +2ST bonus if you must be half-dead to have it. It has no use, better just lower EN by 2 points and get +2 ST when creating character, or take weapon handling perk.

My proposition is change Adrenaline Rush to something like +10% to DR and +4 to DT below 50% HP. So it works like 2 toughness perks, but only if you are in trouble.


Same about Cautious Nature, the positioning effect is just not worthy enough. But if it added a bonus of +50% when checking if you can avoid encounter, it could be useful for people with low-medium outdoors.

[Badger]

My proposition is change Adrenaline Rush to something like +10% to DR and +4 to DT below 50% HP. So it works like 2 toughness perks, but only if you are in trouble.

I like it!

But then again, it's a level 6 perk. So it's competing with More Criticals and Bonus Ranged Damage. That being the case, I might suggest it go even further and give you a +1/2 AP bonus as well. Bearing in mind that being on less health is a pretty dangerous situation to be in. At the moment, I'd rather make the shitty perks too powerful and then have to nerf them rather than not do enough. And it's also worth considering that it's that or another rank in Toughness, or Awareness, perks which are basically always useful.

Hmm, since there's now all that character data online, is there a way we can check which perks are the most popular?

Take the level 3 perks for example:

Awareness
Bonus HtH Damage
Cautious Nature
Earlier Sequence
Faster Healing
Healer
Quick Pockets
Quick Recovery
Scout
Stonewall - (Soon to be an anti-crit perk)
Strong Back
Survivalist
Swift Learner
Thief
Toughness

I mean how many people would consider taking anything but Toughness or Awareness, besides it being a crafting alt or whatever? That's more or less 10-12 out of 14 perks being pretty useless.

[avv]

I like it!

But would you take it?

[Badger]

Same about Cautious Nature, the positioning effect is just not worthy enough. But if it added a bonus of +50% when checking if you can avoid encounter, it could be useful for people with low-medium outdoors.

I like it, but I can also see it just not being as popular as Toughness, Awareness and More Criticals. I could also see it being the perk of choice for people levelling up their crafting alt as they roam around the map, avoiding encounters.

This is the problem. I don't think you're going to be able to get people to take 'soft' perks so long as there are good 'hard' ones like AP Bonuses, Damage Resistance etc. And I have no idea how you remedy it.

[cannotspace]

My Ideas:

• Gain _____ should give bonuses above 10 (same issue as previously stated)

they could make it so you can use the "gain___" more than once on same special, like increasing CH twice, or ST twice

P.S. I mean gain 1 special per perk, but being able to get that perk more than once

[Badger]

they could make it so you can use the "gain___" more than once on same special, like increasing CH twice, or ST twice

P.S. I mean gain 1 special per perk, but being able to get that perk more than once

I think the Gain X perks might be popular if they're available right from the start, and you can get two or even three ranks in them. I can't guarantee it wouldn't be overpowered, but I'd be interested to try it. I mean if someone developed a character and took an incredible amount of Gain X perks, they'd still have very distinct weaknesses due to the perks that they didn't take - rate of fire, crits, etc.

Alternatively, we go crazy, and keep the Gain X perks at level 12, but make them +2 in your chosen stat, but with only one rank. The possibility of +2 anything would be very tempting, particularly if an Endurance bonus, for example, had a retroactive HP increase.

Or, make a new level 12 perk and do both. Gain Charisma would be +1 and available at level 3. Incredible Charisma would be +2 and available at level 12. Exciting.

[Sarakin]

Gain Perks starting from lvl 3 with more levels is a good idea indeed. And I dont think it would be overpowered, you would gain 7 SPECIAL instead of 7 useful perks.

Like I stated elsewhere, requirements are strictly needed in some perks, because they are too good. Just look at BROF and AB. Theres no argue that BROF is way better than 1 AB. But not everyone can take BROF atm, so they have to go with just AB.

[Solar]

AR was penciled in for a change.

Tank           
Toughness   3   EN 4   Gives +5% to DR and +2 to DT   1
Even Tougher   6   EN 6   Gives +10% to DR and +3 to DT   1
Adrenaline Rush   9   En 5   Gives +15% DR when less than 50% HP   1
Lifegiver   12   EN 4   Gives +30 to HP   1
Lifegiver+   15   EN 6   Gives +40 to HP   1

[Swinglinered]

I often get Strong Back or Pack Rat as a compensation for using strength as a dump stat, or for a miner/trader/crafter  early after the wipe to help get things rolling.

Quick Pockets could maybe add a 3rd active slot or make reload 1 AP. Also make it so that with QP the active slot switching animation goes a lot faster- that would really help. Perhaps make the 3rd Active Slot be Level 2.

Cautious Nature has its applications, but the maps with multiple groups need to have reworked spawn points and/or a spawning AI that makes CN actually useful. Perhaps a quick fix would be for CN to work as it does now, but add 100-200% to the time at the beginning of combat when the player gets to just run for it.

Swift Learner? Meaningless as 5% less grinding is not worth a perk slot. Make it 10%? No, perhaps make it a different sort of meta-perk- one that allows the next perk taken to skip a level bracket- so for a non-Skilled character the perk taken at 6th level will be takeable from the 9th level grouping. With Skilled, the 8th lvl perk can be taken from the 12th grouping. This only happens once, since the Swift Learner Perk only can be taken once.

Scout? It lets you see an extra square- useless without some kind of exploration and/or tracking mechanic. Also useless because we all know the map or can look it up easily. Maybe actually let it influence special encounter frequency?
As a quick fix have Scout allow a double-check for encounter avoidance, with the chance of double check happening being 10%*Luck, so Luck 10 characters always get to reroll. They also get a similar chance added to finding resource-maps (ones with Junk, flint, herbs, wood) in areas where those resources would normally be found.

Survivalist? This is a way for crafters and some others to quickly finish boosting OD so they can get back to putting points into their primary fields. Need 150 to get near-guaranteed avoidance on most squares, 180 for similar protection on the toughest squares (IIRC/AFAIK). If tagged, OD is half cost to 100, then regular cost to 120-130.
Then toss in a Survivalist level and you're done.

Healer? Make it regenerate FA faster.

Faster Healing? Well, this doesn't really have much hope, does it? Maybe have it also give radiation cleansing (1 rad point/game hour per level) along with 5% rad ress per level. Same for poison.
Snake Eater and Rad Ressistance would need some changes, too. Make them 50% stronger and have them also increase recovery rate by a quarter per level. (Rad Ress would give a recov. rate equal to Faster Healing. Per level.)
This way we get Glow lockpickers/sciencers/repairers with END 10, Rad Ressistance lv 3, Faster Healing 3... etc.
For Snake Eater, have to have enemies with poison spears, poison needler ammo, etc.
Unless you REALLY love RPing a Floater/Radscorpion hunter.

Thief? Add a good speed increase to the stealing and lockpicking cooldowns. Then it WILL be taken.

Bonus HTH Damage? Add a 3 points of damage to it and a small knockdown/out chance on top of regular chances. Per level.
Say 5%/1%.

Earlier Sequence? Make it 2 points better so each level of it is almost as good as Kamikaze. Have it add 50% to the time you get in an Enc where you can run for it before combat starts. In RT, make each level of it add 15% to AP regen speed.

Also: BRING BACK TAG!

Also: Scrounger! With multiple levels!

Flower Child!

Here And Now? Why not? It is trading a perk for some grinding.




 

[RavenousRat]

Of couse topic is "Perks - Which ones are useless?", but I also want to talk about useful perks.
Oh noes! Sorry for another wall of text.

Lifegiver, let it just simulate 2 EN points that doesn't give you bonus against cripple / knock down/out rolls, but can go above 10 EN. So:
Lifegiver gives base 4 HP +1 per level. HP given by Lifegiver added retroactively. So if you'll take it on 12th level or 21st level, you'll have the same effect, and it'll total add 24 HP if you're 21st level, or 48 HP if you have x2 LGs. HP formula of couse should be reworked, also focusing should be in advantage, so prolly 2nd LG will give more base HP, like 8 or 10 or 12.

Lifegiver   12   EN 4   Gives +30 to HP   1
Lifegiver+   15   EN 6   Gives +40 to HP   1

Still it has better "Energy conversion efficiency" (took from wiki, because don't know how it's in english http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_conversion_efficiency) than other 12th level perk. For example if you see someone taking Action Boy instead of Life Giver, then.. something wrong here. Or Gain Ability instead of Life Giver, then this player has problems in logic.

Weapon Handling is 3 SPECIAL points, the only penalty you have is low carry weight. It works like Super-puper Small Frame trait.
Weapon Handling. The idea is to make it mult 1/4 penalty to hit given by lacking ST. So if you have 5 ST and you need 7 ST for weapon, you have 2*20%=40% penalty, with this perk it'll be 40%/4=10% penalty. Also I'm still not sure about critical failure if you're lacking ST, because it's totally random, but still practice shows that lacking ST has more critical failures when missing, than normal ST, so it'll have the same effect on failures by decreasing it's bonus in 4 times.
In other words, taking weapon handling won't give you 3 SPECIAL points, it won't even totally negate penalty, it'll only make it 4 times lower.
Again in other words, as I noticed, most anti-crit perks made by Solar requires 6 ST, it means players will try to have those 6 ST, so probably current weapon handling isn't that bad, because you trade anti-crit perks for 3 SPECIAL points, so if it'll stay 6 ST, then WH will be ok as it is now.

More Criticals, Better Criticals. It's really hard to balance such perks, because it has really different impact on different builds. It's essential perk for bursters, because x1 MC will double the chance of critical and all MCs with make it x4 times more frequent, of couse when Solar said about armor giving -% to critical hit... if he meant that it'll have the same penalty to torso and eyes, then it'll kill critical bursters, if it multiplies % (for example 75%, so 85% critical will become 63.75% and 21% will become 15.75%), then it'll work really good, so for example some armor that has x0.75 crit mult will negate x1 MC from burster and more than x4 MCs from sniper, then MCs won't need any change and it won't be so powerful.
About Better Critical... if you see someone who's using aimed attacks and haven't picked Better Critical perk, you can surely say to him "make ~deleteself and think about your build once again", because it's like... it's like SG skill for SG sniper or BG skill for BG burster, because without Better Critical perk you're not critical damager. Also it causes possibility of those damned instakills, it gives higher chance for that annoying knock out, it cripples your hand and simply does alot damage! Better Critical is universal perk for all kinds of critical damagers. It's all-in-one perk that's why it's so popular.
Probably it'll sound a bit strange, but I think this perk must be divided to Better Critical: Eyes, Better Critical: Head, Better Critical: Limbs (Arms, Legs), Better Critical: Body (Torso, Groin (isn't shooting groin that bad? what effects it has? the same as head I think, but less damage)).
And perks Better Critical: Limbs and Better Critical: Body will be avaible at 9th level. While perks Better Critical: Eyes and Better Critical: Head will be avaible at 12th and both will require BC Limbs or Body to pick it.
This way you'll spend 2 perks to shoot head or eye with +20 to critical hit table, or spend 3 perks to shoot both head and eye with this bonus, or spend 4 perks to shoot all body parts with bonus.
Cripplers will need only 1 perk, because they're shooting limbs, so it'll make them a bit better than dmg-snipers.
Other way is to add ranks to that perk and let it give less than 20 points.
It'll make snipers less deadly, and they will start whine that those guys with avengers pwning them. Argh.

BonusRateOfFire. Change requirements: 21st or 24th (if it'll be implemented) level perk, just make some perks that are impossible to nerf, but make them more than one and make them avaible on the last level, so you'll pick only one of them. Also Better Critical perk can be stayed as it is now, but be avaible only at the last level. So you'll need to choose between BC and BRoF. Also there must be other perk that good for BGer, may be Imba-Universal-Anit-Crit-Perk-That-Will-Pwn-Snipers, so BGer will think between this and BRoF.

Awareness+Cautious Nature can be combined or Cutious Nature can be 2nd rank of Awareness, that will give more info, give more FoV, etc. So it'll work like Sharpshooter but won't give you to hit bonus. So if you want to make eagle-eyed sniper, you'll have awareness+cautious nature+sharpshooter, yes your crit will suck, but you're not chosen one, pick what you need. Oh, almost forgot, it'll also add some PE for encounters, yeah, everyone will pick this perk only because of that. Because there's nothing more important than to appear in 1 or 2 hexes further from rats!

Well I think noone will read more so it's useless.

[Swinglinered]

I think the Gain X perks might be popular if they're available right from the start, and you can get two or even three ranks in them. I can't guarantee it wouldn't be overpowered, but I'd be interested to try it. I mean if someone developed a character and took an incredible amount of Gain X perks, they'd still have very distinct weaknesses due to the perks that they didn't take - rate of fire, crits, etc.

Alternatively, we go crazy, and keep the Gain X perks at level 12, but make them +2 in your chosen stat, but with only one rank. The possibility of +2 anything would be very tempting, particularly if an Endurance bonus, for example, had a retroactive HP increase.

Or, make a new level 12 perk and do both. Gain Charisma would be +1 and available at level 3. Incredible Charisma would be +2 and available at level 12. Exciting.

Just make the Gain SPECIAL perks level 6 with 3 ranks. Simple.
But only if the SPECIAL reqs remain as before or are only lowered a little.

Also- why boost Charisma if you are not a Slaver/going for some kind of special quest option?
For a Merc Leader, CHA 4, Magnetic Personality, beer, and a Mentat will suffice for 5-Merc engagements like TC.
Only need higher Cha for mercking if you're doing car traps, wandering with mercs, etc.

The CHA 4 stunt is to make all crafters, thiefs, bombers, lockpickers, etc. have a combat function.
Would work especially well with proxies/multilogging.
Like a Volkssturm.

edit: oops I gave away my devious plan for next wipe!