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Skills

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Badger:

--- Quote from: Wichura on February 20, 2011, 01:16:43 PM ---This is in all MMO. Grinders and no-lifers spend more time in-game than casual players, so they get advantages.

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I hate alts, but I think the only way to control them is to legitimise them. Like drugs - if people want them, they're going to find ways to get them. By letting them exist, you can limit how useful an alt is.

Take crafting. Hardly anybody seems to craft on their main character, and that's because crafting requires a dedicated character. I know crafting is being reworked, but it really has to be done in a way that makes alting less appealing. It really, really needs to be streamlined and made into something every player does. If you can't encourage most players to craft without making an alt for it, it's not a good crafting system. Simple as that.

If you made it so there was no real advantage to having an alt, and crafting didn't gimp your combat capabilities, people would do it. Make the professions give respectable combat bonuses. Make it so they only require their base skill and one other. Gunsmith = Small Guns + Repair. Energy Weapons = Energy Weapons + Science. Nobody likes being forced to spread their character thin, or be forced to take skills they don't want.

I would even suggest that crafting skills exist independently of the Skill system. Then you level up your crafting ability by crafting, with no skill or SPECIAL requirements. Then everyone can do it, and there's no reason to alt as it doesn't detract from your skills in other areas. But that would make a lot of skills a useless, and so I accept that's not a practical solution.

And a lot of games do find ways to circumvent the grinder vs average player. I think more tightly controlled fighting situations would minimise the advantage you can get by grinding. hat's why most games, not just MMOs, enforce balanced teams. If you could win Team Fortress by just getting all your friends to join and swamping the enemy, it would be justifiably regarded as terrible.

So yeah. Allow alts, but then discourage them by simplifying crafting. Make grinding less useful by creating more 'fixed' combat scenarios. I realise both may be on the way in some form.

Solar:
That's untrue. The specific idea to reduce alts can be unworkable without the principle being bad.

The difficulty comes in that if you just increase potential you end up with clone chars everywhere as they are able to do everything. You can increase skill points and rather than diversify their char with the extra freedom, people will take the smaller boost to combat potential - and the gap between "normal" chars and a power build just increases.

Hopefully we have something in mind which will allow you to have extra skills/perks available in the traditionally alted skills, but also allowing you to build "normal" chars with the same potential as power builds too - at the same time as significantly increasing the char types that are viable.

Incidentally, we are trying to do so without completely obliterating SPECIAL and making it unrecognisable as a Fallout char system.

RavenousRat:

--- Quote from: Solar on February 20, 2011, 02:03:14 PM ---That's untrue. The specific idea to reduce alts can be unworkable without the principle being bad.

The difficulty comes in that if you just increase potential you end up with clone chars everywhere as they are able to do everything. You can increase skill points and rather than diversify their char with the extra freedom, people will take the smaller boost to combat potential - and the gap between "normal" chars and a power build just increases.

Hopefully we have something in mind which will allow you to have extra skills/perks available in the traditionally alted skills, but also allowing you to build "normal" chars with the same potential as power builds too - at the same time as significantly increasing the char types that are viable.

Incidentally, we are trying to do so without completely obliterating SPECIAL and making it unrecognisable as a Fallout char system.

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What will be the difference? If everyone will craft everything, nothing will be changed, except for relogging on crafter alt. Main character will play role of main+crafter, that's all. Or just make crafters to have some advantage with thier items, that would explain why someone should spend points on science and repair, because why someone should waste points there? He'll dismantle enemy with science or what? This character will be useless in combat, or atleast less effective. It means that normal human will make separate characters to kill things and to craft items. Just make blueprints for every item possible, and let everyone to craft everything, slow down XP income for crafting and killing and allow to reset character once per real life 2 weeks, instead of making other character, if player is bored with one type build and want to be another. So, there will be alts only for dual/multi logging, because no more use for them.
And no, they won't look like clones, they will looks like now. Repairmen and scientists aren't going to kill people anyway, they are just making things, so why don't combine normal characters who are able to kill and those useless crafters into one character? Make quest/NPC faction rank/whatever requirement for crafting, but not skills.

avv:

--- Quote from: Wichura on February 20, 2011, 01:16:43 PM ---This is in all MMO. Grinders and no-lifers spend more time in-game than casual players, so they get advantages.
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It's not matter of time, but how you spend your time. It wouldn't be good for player interaction and the MMO concept if everyone was hunting centaurs in death walley or crafting alone inside their base. Or doing whatever repetitive task it takes to gain more xp or wealth - alone. Surely there are people who want to do just that, but in my opinion they have chosen a wrong game.

Solar:
It will work by having soft skills perks not come out of the normal perk allowance, the current mood is to have the achievable in game, rather than as a seperate perk system. So when you had 45% outdoors (or whatever) you would go to the NPC who started the quest to unlock Pathfinder. You would then be limited to X number of these support perks - as you would be in an alternative perk system - and the perks that really increase performance in certain tasks would be kept until later on/harder quests.

This way, if you want someone really efficient at repairing (I hate current repair, but its just an example) then you have to invest time into developing that char ... at which point you just have a second main char and might aswell have put it onto your main anyway.

Crafting will be made a lot more free, I still don't really want the one person crafting the best items of each branch on his own (ideally really good stuff should be more rare than it is now anyway), I expect that will be controlled by skill/perk requirements on the specific blueprints, but the middle stuff will be easier for one person to make.


At the end of the day though, people will always be able to make multiple chars, its just matter of making it harder to make useless at everything, but great at one task chars in 30 mins. It should also be less of a disadvantage to remaining on 1 char.

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