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Poll

Do you think we should enhance the melee chars with these weapon perks?

Totally agree, melee chars too weak in Fonline
- 30 (75%)
No, range weapons rule, I dont wanna change that
- 6 (15%)
Maybe not, it will be hard to do, and may followed by bugs
- 4 (10%)

Total Members Voted: 40


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Author Topic: Knockdown and knockback for Melee and Unarmed  (Read 17529 times)

Knockdown and knockback for Melee and Unarmed
« on: January 26, 2010, 05:48:37 am »

Ok, today we talk about melee and unarmed chars. They're too weak, too useless in gang war, and it's really not good, Black Isle wanted all kind of chars in Fallout 2 have their own special power and technics. Let say, Sniper have the deadly instant death and blinded effect + biggest range 50, Rocketeer have their knockdown with range 40, Plasma gunner have very big damage output like Light Support Weapon gunner with everage range, Thrower have very deadly damage output and knockdown effect at range 15, and what about Melee + Unarmed???

They can just fight at range 1 or 2 (if that's Super Sledge), and what they have for exchange that disadvantage? Nothing! In turn based, they maybe ok, but war gang in towns or any realtime battle just not the place for them. The attack animation make the low AP cost advantage gone, and they have no effects, no knockdown until critical hits but it's very rare. In contrast with Thrower + Plasma grenade, 1 throw to someone wearing MA2 will result 50-70 HP (tested), with 11 AP, they can throw 4 grenades before stop throwing, and nearly every grenades have knockdown effect, which means 200-280HP at the start of the fight with 2-3 knockdown. Ok, Thrower have knockdown, 60 damage, range 15 - melee have range 1, and no effect, damage just 1x-2x (Ripper hit MA2), so ... ?

You will say : oh, come on, then you can just make a thrower char and play it, forget about melee ! No, Fallout 2 means every playing style have their own unique power, no one is god because everyone is god !

I know that Fallout 2 have a weapon perk that gives knockdown and knockback effect, which Super Sledge was intent to have. But I tested it, a melee char or a Melee Mercenary, with 20 hits, only 1 became Knockdown, and there was no knockback !
The only guys that have better knockdown is Death Claws, but it's still rare, only 1/6 of their attacks have knockdown when attack a Sniper with 5 ST 4 EN and no Stonwall perk.

Do you think that you can fire a Sniper Rifle/Light Support weapon/Plasma Rifle when Jackie Chan is attacking you with his unarmed attacks? You think you cant ? Dont lose your faith, at least in Fonline, you can do that !

Ok, here's my suggestion : check out the perk for knockdown and knockback effects, if it still working, double or even tripple their chance, so melee or unarmed can have about 30% knockdown chance and some bonus from Strength, Super Sledge have 30% knockback and knockdown chance. Dont say it's too much, because someone have Stonewall and Quick recovery nearly wont suffer from it (like Bigguner, Thrower etc), and those suffer from it is stupid Sniper / Long range fighters that let Jackie Chan gets near  ;D.

Come on, I think we should improve melee and unarmed chars, also the critters, not as much as player chars, but at least more than they have now. A Deathclaw can kill a Enclave or Brotherhood with ease, but in Fonline, he cant, he's just a little chicken that players hunting for easy exp !!! Where's the Justice? Dreadful Big bad Deathclaw only have 2xx HP and the little humanoid Enclave have 627 HP with 75% crit chance???

I dont know much about programing, but I think changing that perk is possible, and devs can do it easily.

If you have better ideas to improve melee/unarmed chars, please post it here, we must find a way to help these chars !

P/s : I'm a long range fighter, for those who think I'm acting on my own interests.
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Re: Knockdown and knockback for Melee and Unarmed
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2010, 06:18:20 am »

This feature IS in game , and working correctly. With a well made melee character, more than half the attacks with supersledge will send opponent flying, and most times, knocked out of the fight.
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Re: Knockdown and knockback for Melee and Unarmed
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2010, 06:39:46 am »

If anything hth/melee just needs to be able to run when attacking, people can just run away from you. The only chance you have is to cripple the legs.
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Re: Knockdown and knockback for Melee and Unarmed
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2010, 08:14:15 am »

better whine to give auto(running)attack option not slow motion walk ;)
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Re: Knockdown and knockback for Melee and Unarmed
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2010, 12:05:44 pm »

If anything hth/melee just needs to be able to run when attacking, people can just run away from you. The only chance you have is to cripple the legs.

But before that dying needs to punish players more. Otherwise we got bluesuit meleebuilds running around and nobody can do anything about them because they got nothing to lose.
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Re: Knockdown and knockback for Melee and Unarmed
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2010, 02:09:17 pm »

If you want to buff unarmed, make this a level 3 perk for decent unarmed/melee skilled characters.

In Your Face! is a perk from Van Buren, the canceled Fallout 3 project by Black Isle, and J.E. Sawyer's Fallout Role-Playing Game.
Opponents can't make called shots with thrown weapons or firearms when you are within 1 hex and are only holding melee weapons or are unarmed. They also suffer a -10% penalty to hit with those weapons against all targets.
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Re: Knockdown and knockback for Melee and Unarmed
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2010, 02:27:58 pm »

Quote
Opponents can't make called shots with thrown weapons or firearms when you are within 1 hex and are only holding melee weapons or are unarmed. They also suffer a -10% penalty to hit with those weapons against all targets.
Just not fair, because it only affects Sniper and Long ranger fighter, big gunners wont suffer from it, then Big gunner will have a new advantage, just get close, Sniper cant aim you anymore, and brrrr... reload ...brrrrr.... oh, they're all dead hehe  :-X. You hold a minigun in your hand and still can easily rotate it to fire at Jackie Chan who jumping around, locking down your hands and legs ? ;)
Quote
This feature IS in game , and working correctly. With a well made melee character, more than half the attacks with supersledge will send opponent flying, and most times, knocked out of the fight.
Really? Can you test it again and take a picture to prove it, of course in Fonline not Fallout 2? If you're right, can you tell me which will decides the knockdown chance? Because I tested on a Sniper with 5 ST 4 EN no Stonewall get hit by 2 Melee Merc with Super Sledge, then I test that Sniper with a melee char, 40 hits total, just 2 is knockdown, 1 knockback, and that knockback have no knockout effect as you say. I dont know what was wrong ...
Quote
But before that dying needs to punish players more. Otherwise we got bluesuit meleebuilds running around and nobody can do anything about them because they got nothing to lose.
You got your gun on your hand, dont be afraid, and if you dont, just run when they still far from you, wasteland is wasteland, you're weaker - you got to run  ;). The harassments is base on our bad multi account controlling, not about strong melee or not.
I think enable running attack is just good, or even add some knockdown effect when melee/unarmed hit someone from behind, it's reality, dont you think?
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Re: Knockdown and knockback for Melee and Unarmed
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2010, 04:49:18 pm »

Quote
Just not fair, because it only affects Sniper and Long ranger fighter, big gunners wont suffer from it, then Big gunner will have a new advantage, just get close, Sniper cant aim you anymore, and brrrr... reload ...brrrrr.... oh

Please read again this part:
Quote
when you are within 1 hex and are only holding melee weapons or are unarmed
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Re: Knockdown and knockback for Melee and Unarmed
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2010, 05:27:14 pm »

What tha hell...
Quote
But before that dying needs to punish players more. Otherwise we got bluesuit meleebuilds running around and nobody can do anything about them because they got nothing to lose.
Being able to fight only in melee range is already big enough ''punishment''. What they should implement is that if you press attack on a target while having fists/weapon that's range is less than 3 (sledge, ripper, knife, cattle prod) you start to run at them, not crawl.
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Re: Knockdown and knockback for Melee and Unarmed
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2010, 05:54:20 pm »

Quote
Please read again this part:
Quote
when you are within 1 hex and are only holding melee weapons or are unarmed
Oh, you dont understand what I meant : they just keep their Light Support Weapon on the other hand, or if we search for the other hand also, they can keep it in inventory, most Biggun have at least 9AP, mean they can take the LSW out and burst in no second, and the Sniper cant count on the second aimed shot as before.    So Biggun have more advatange, as they do not aim. And you know that Big gunners have enough power now, do you? If this perk come true, no melee will be create, just more bigguners, they have Rocket, they have awsome burst LSW, now the Sniper cant aim when they get close, Perfect !
Quote
Being able to fight only in melee range is already big enough ''punishment''. What they should implement is that if you press attack on a target while having fists/weapon that's range is less than 3 (sledge, ripper, knife, cattle prod) you start to run at them, not crawl.
I totally agree, melee range is a big disadvantage, very very big.
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Re: Knockdown and knockback for Melee and Unarmed
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2010, 06:39:49 pm »

Oh, you dont understand what I meant : they just keep their Light Support Weapon on the other hand, or if we search for the other hand also, they can keep it in inventory, most Biggun have at least 9AP, mean they can take the LSW out and burst in no second, and the Sniper cant count on the second aimed shot as before.    So Biggun have more advatange, as they do not aim. And you know that Big gunners have enough power now, do you? If this perk come true, no melee will be create, just more bigguners, they have Rocket, they have awsome burst LSW, now the Sniper cant aim when they get close, Perfect !

"Take the LSW out and burst in no second"? You're forgetting the time it takes to open your inventory, drag the weapon across, the equipping animation to play, then to select their target. If the other guy has just been standing there the whole time and let them do all that, they deserve to die.
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Re: Knockdown and knockback for Melee and Unarmed
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2010, 06:47:33 pm »

Bluesuits have nothing to lose? It's a 6 minute wait until you can play again and your chances of surviving a pvp encounter with hth are pretty slim.
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Re: Knockdown and knockback for Melee and Unarmed
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2010, 03:20:42 am »

@NDH1187
here are couple screens showing the effect of supersledge. I stayed in same spot



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Re: Knockdown and knockback for Melee and Unarmed
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2010, 04:18:59 am »

Quote
"Take the LSW out and burst in no second"? You're forgetting the time it takes to open your inventory, drag the weapon across, the equipping animation to play, then to select their target. If the other guy has just been standing there the whole time and let them do all that, they deserve to die.
Pretty easy with pratice, just order to run, press I, pick up LSW, when the character in place, wait for the Sniper shoot first, just 1x-2x damage, then drop LSW to hand, now, he dont run he die. I dont say that it's a surely victory for biggun, I just say that it'll be more power for them, before that perk, Sniper can have rely on their 1st and 2nd aim shot before begin to run, but now just the 1st.

To Thebob : ok, looks fine, but the different is you aimed, aimed means you have more criticals which leads to knockdown and knockback, but look at the damage you made : they're nude, you crit, and just 19-20 HP !
1 Hit of aimed Super Sledge is 6 AP, with just lower than 1 Sniper hit 2AP (which is 8AP) and as same as a LSW burst or Rocket, you have range 1, they have range 50-40, even if you stand just in front of a Sniper, his damage always better than you, with Armor piercing 223 ammo and better crit chance.

What I mention is this knockdown and knock back chance will be there even if you dont aim (something like chance = 3*Strength, which mean your basic knockdown chance will be 30% with ST10), with EN + Stonwall roll to decide if it's a fall or not.

If you aim, it will even more chance to knockdown. Dont say this is to much, their damage just too low ! A LSW burst at range 1 6AP will pop up with 1xx HP (MA2), with high EN + Stonwall + Quick Recovery, they still can handle these melee chars, which even rise their distribution in gang wars more !

So, more knockback knockdown chance and running attack when it's within 3 hexes is good enough.
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Re: Knockdown and knockback for Melee and Unarmed
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2010, 04:25:11 am »

now u going off on some tangent.
man, i dont even know.. That character has 31% crits, still does the knockbacks without being aimed shot
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