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[Badger]

Alright, here's my idea.

Every few hours, members of each town's faction fight in some random location over resources/territory/hats/biscuits. Only people that are members can enter the map, to stop people ruining it. Modoc fights against some Reno thugs over cattle, that kind of thing. It's not intended to make a whole lot of sense, it's more meant to be fun and encourage people to join town factions over their own boring little private bases.

Let's say if you join a town's faction, you get your own locker, you respawn there when you die, and you get to use their crafting facilities.

At 3pm GMT, a fight is always scheduled to begin between two factions. I'm an NCR goon, so I sign up to fight. If I'm well equipped, I fight with what I have and have better chance of surviving. If I've got nothing, I get given some pretty crappy 'standard issue' that replaces my current gear and gets confiscated when the fight is over to prevent people farming.

If no players on the enemy team sign up, then it's you versus NPCs. If they do, it's Players and NPCs vs. Players and NPCs. If you win, you get xp and caps. If you lose, you lose.

That's all there is to it.

[Nyan]

That's a great thing you wrote here. Also fighting in those battles could give you positive reputation to the faction you fight for.

[Gunduz]

I like it. If I'm reading this correctly, what happens with TC though? If each town has a faction, then in theory that faction should be able to keep its town safe. (Except Redding, because apparently they don't know how to organize themselves with the fight between Reno, VC and NCR from F2).

Jumping off your idea, this could be an opportunity to make TC more interesting. The player faction controlling the town would have to work with those already signed up with the town's faction. Members of a town's faction are somewhat permanent. Meaning they don't leave every 24 hours when the town changes hands. They can always fight for their town and get rewarded when they win. But the player faction is much more disposable. I say that if in these battles a TC town is involved, and it loses, town control opens up. So say XXX faction controlled Modoc. At YYY time Modoc and Den have a battle. If Modoc loses, that faction loses control as well. The members of the town faction, however, lose nothing.

But we can't leave people out of this. Lets say you are an enemy of XXX faction but do not belong to Den's faction. You want to see XXX lose. So you go to Den, and you sign up as a temporary militia. There would have to be a cutoff, like you have to sign up at least 2 real hours before the battle. If you win, you would be rewarded, as well as getting the chance to take over Modoc, but lose nothing if you lose. Every day, the town fights are between different places. (Maybe even see the Enclave attacking a town if the same faction keeps it for too long?) So instead of TC simply being run to a sheriff's office and fight everyone off there could be some strategy.

Battles should, however, not be fought in the town, but in an area slightly outside of town. The defenders get a slight headstart to set up mercs, (mines if they become available) etc.

After the battle opens, members have one chance to enter. If they are killed, the area disappears to them like it does when you leave a faction. After some amount of time, whichever side has more members left (even if one side only has one man) wins. Winners are returned to town with their rewards in their inventory (locker if they are town members) and losers are left to wander the wastes (or return to their town to defend it from attackers). After the battle, the losers have 1 ingame hour before their town hears word of the failure, kicks them out as reigning player faction, and searches for a new replacement. If the losers manage to retake the town, they do the same thing again the next day and hope they win.

Oh and I think players should get a choice to be armed by the town or bring their own. If they are armed by the town, their inventory is replaced by an armor, a gun (players choose their specialty and get a low-mid quality gun of that type) and an appropriate amount of ammo. Winners should keep this, a few caps, and maybe another item as a reward for winning.

[Badger]

I like it. If I'm reading this correctly, what happens with TC though? If each town has a faction, then in theory that faction should be able to keep its town safe. (Except Redding, because apparently they don't know how to organize themselves with the fight between Reno, VC and NCR from F2).

Yeah, I'm going to admit I've never been too big a fan of the TC system. I'd rather this just replaced it, but I can see why the devs may not want to. Towns never struck me as the place for PvP. Maybe bar brawls and the like, but never as the centre of FOnline's PvP - too many players are accidentally involved when they don't want to be, and there's too many NPCs to get caught in the crossfire. TC towns aren't usually 'guarded', they're just 'murder when you enter because we don't know if you're an enemy' (except with the Klamath Cajuns, I must admit).

Your suggestion would force them to be useful, but if the TC factions are too involved I can see this just being VSB versus Tasty Dudes under the guise of Redding vs. Reno. I'd like for them to be separate, in order to encourage strangers to interact and cooperate when they normally wouldn't have. They have to sacrifice their exclusivity to be able to fight - with a faction you get a private base, with a town you don't but you get better PVP. There aren't many ways for FOnline players to acquaint themselves with other players outside of the forums, and this would definitely force them to cooperate.

However, I could just see factions picking their favourite towns and Klamath basically being the new BBS - but they'd be forced to be diluted by a constant influx of newcomers. Killing a fellow faction member a few times would just get you kicked out.

[avv]

You're thinking of big schemes Badger. There's lots of things to implement before factions start fighting each other.

Let's say if you join a town's faction, you get your own locker, you respawn there when you die, and you get to use their crafting facilities.

At 3pm GMT, a fight is always scheduled to begin between two factions. I'm an NCR goon, so I sign up to fight. If I'm well equipped, I fight with what I have and have better chance of surviving. If I've got nothing, I get given some pretty crappy 'standard issue' that replaces my current gear and gets confiscated when the fight is over to prevent people farming.

Sounds good. However with that standard issue gear, how about if the faction had limited storages for standard issue sets and would run out if players died too often and didn't return their issued weapons? In the end it's about victory of your faction, not some pesky assault rifles and smgs. In addition factions could have respawn points to be spent in these fights. When player is killed by enemy faction member or in the combat area, a spawn point is reduced from the common pool. Once it's depleted your faction loses this fight/war.

Yeah, I'm going to admit I've never been too big a fan of the TC system. I'd rather this just replaced it, but I can see why the devs may not want to. Towns never struck me as the place for PvP. Maybe bar brawls and the like, but never as the centre of FOnline's PvP - too many players are accidentally involved when they don't want to be, and there's too many NPCs to get caught in the crossfire. TC towns aren't usually 'guarded', they're just 'murder when you enter because we don't know if you're an enemy' (except with the Klamath Cajuns, I must admit).

That's how it goes. It's quite irrational but there has to be some pvp grounds around. It hurts nubs alot but if they are smart, it hurts them only once. Perhaps in future we'd get some sense to the whole pvp system. Quite certainly trappers in Klamath would not allow constant murdering and body mutilation in their town, neither would the farmers in modoc.

[Badger]

Sounds good. However with that standard issue gear, how about if the faction had limited storages for standard issue sets and would run out if players died too often and didn't return their issued weapons? In the end it's about victory of your faction, not some pesky assault rifles and smgs. In addition factions could have respawn points to be spent in these fights. When player is killed by enemy faction member or in the combat area, a spawn point is reduced from the common pool. Once it's depleted your faction loses this fight/war.

Not so keen on the respawn point/limited gear idea. You forget how shitty people can be. I can honestly see people making fake characters, getting them into a faction, and deliberately screwing things up by losing the limited gear and wasting respawn points. Maybe to help their friends win, or maybe just to be a dick.

What you've made me think of, in the spirit of cooperation with strangers, is a faction 'Quartermaster'. If you've got a bunch of spare gear, you can donate it to your faction's gear pool and gain reputation (maybe a bit of xp). Other faction members can get one donated piece of gear every 3/6/12/24 hours or so (depending on the value of the gear), and you have to be a faction member of good standing and over level 3 to get access.

That's how it goes. It's quite irrational but there has to be some pvp grounds around. It hurts nubs alot but if they are smart, it hurts them only once. Perhaps in future we'd get some sense to the whole pvp system. Quite certainly trappers in Klamath would not allow constant murdering and body mutilation in their town, neither would the farmers in modoc.

Oh, yeah, I agree that there should be a lot of dangerous places where you can get your face shot off at any time without warning, but I don't think those places should be towns. They should be places with a lot of raw materials, or areas with dangerous monsters or rare tech. It defies logic that the least safe place to be in a post apocalyptic world isn't the desert, it's a backwater farming town.

[avv]

I guess having spawnpoints would be bad, but winning battles with material overpower would still be logical. That's how recent wars are fought. It just have to be made so that only trusted and respected faction members are allowed to receive free stuff every now and then. Like you described: stuff per timeunit, quality depends on your reputation. This way some shitheads farming lugers won't be such a big deal.  Players could lose their reputation if they keep taking more than providing.

What you've made me think of, in the spirit of cooperation with strangers, is a faction 'Quartermaster'. If you've got a bunch of spare gear, you can donate it to your faction's gear pool and gain reputation (maybe a bit of xp). Other faction members can get one donated piece of gear every 3/6/12/24 hours or so (depending on the value of the gear), and you have to be a faction member of good standing and over level 3 to get access.

This would release the lone players from being forced to be pure crafter/fighters. They could just be respected members of faction and gain their material needs from there in exchange of participating battles and giving away some of their surplus loot. This system would indeed encourage players to participate faction events, befriend certain people and consider others as enemies. This way we'd get rational pvp.

To gain faction reputation would be killing the enemies of this faction - players and npcs alike, donating stuff and participating faction events. Faction events would be these battles, escorting faction's caravans etc.

[Badger]

To gain faction reputation would be killing the enemies of this faction - players and npcs alike, donating stuff and participating faction events. Faction events would be these battles, escorting faction's caravans etc.

Hell, even 'Junktown Scouts' and 'NCR Patrols' could now include players as well as NPCs. If you want a bit of cash and xp, you offer to go out on patrol. You get accompanied by NPCs and your path is fixed, so you can't just murder bluesuits in the name of Junktown.

I guess having spawnpoints would be bad, but winning battles with material overpower would still be logical. That's how recent wars are fought.

I'd say that could still work if both players and NPCs were equipped with good gear from the 'gear pool' before the infinite supply of (unfarmable) standard issues. That way you could still make a decent impact on the outcome of a fight if you handed out good gear.

[Nice_Boat]

That's a nice way of saying "to hell with those player factions that keep killing me and my mates, screw their politics, economic stability and all that endgame stuff, just make them gtfo from the towns and throw them some shitty encounter battles so that they shut up about having their fun taken away". And being in a player faction is not about having a base, it's about placing the PvP you do in a proper context - you have control over your actions, you take the responsibility, you pay the price if you screw up. The possibilities in the current system are basically endless, limited only by player imagination (as evidenced by spying, scouting, logistics and politics that are all parts of it right now) - and you're proposing to replace it with boring set-piece battles you fight with random people on your side and basically have no control over how they play out. That'd be just silly, with nothing to gain for the PvP crowd. And you "peaceful" guys have all the south at your disposal and then some more - why do you try making us dumbass gang members happy with your brilliant ideas is beyond my understanding, especially since we generally don't try screwing with your part of the game. All I'm hearing here in the forums is "make the north safe" repeated like a mantra over and over again by a very limited and easily identifiable group of people while there was no single thread about remaking NCR into a battlezone. Hmmm... I wonder why

[avv]

Nice_Boat you're misunderstanding this thread as some sort of conspiracy against your gaming values.

while there was no single thread about remaking NCR into a battlezone. Hmmm... I wonder why

Because nobody really wants that? Ever tried to trade in New Reno?

[Nice_Boat]

Nice_Boat you're misunderstanding this thread as some sort of conspiracy against your gaming values.

I don't think that's a misunderstanding since the author has specifically stated that he doesn't like the whole "north is for TC" idea and wants us bloodthirsty bastards out of the cities. I think that's what you could call a carebear-nazi.

Because nobody really wants that? Ever tried to trade in New Reno?

Yeah, I did trade in New Reno and I did PvP in NCR - both are silly ideas that have little to no chances of working. And it's good cause we have both PvP and trading and we know where to go looking for each.

[Badger]

I don't think that's a misunderstanding since the author has specifically stated that he doesn't like the whole "north is for TC" idea and wants us bloodthirsty bastards out of the cities. I think that's what you could call a carebear-nazi.
Yeah, I did trade in New Reno and I did PvP in NCR - both are silly ideas that have little to no chances of working. And it's good cause we have both PvP and trading and we know where to go looking for each.

Yeah, you caught me. My secret master plan is to make the northern towns used for something other than battlegrounds, and let players (even players without bases, god forbid) engage in PvP that's structured, has an overall goal that isn't HA WE SHOT U LOSERS IN MODOC I HAVE UR GEAR I RP SHITTIN IN UR MOUTH. But shh. Don't tell anyone. Secret.

[Nice_Boat]

Yeah, you caught me. My secret master plan is to make the northern towns used for something other than battlegrounds, and let players (even players without bases, god forbid) engage in PvP that's structured, has an overall goal that isn't HA WE SHOT U LOSERS IN MODOC I HAVE UR GEAR I RP SHITTIN IN UR MOUTH. But shh. Don't tell anyone. Secret.

PvP right now is structured (with an overall goal and all this shit) to the point most free-roamers are ready to puke due to:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=21.0

... so yeah, we don't really need your Master Plan, neither do we need random no-names forcing themselves upon our teams, flat combat zones and free gear. Go be happy in your south, let us be happy in our north. If you want to PvP and have no base, either a) join a gang or b) create your own gang and join one of the alliances. Or just murder someone in Reno. Simple, isn't it? And hey, it's been like that for a long, long time and, unlike your Master Plan it actually is proven and works.

[avv]

Splitting the playerbase to "you and we" won't have a bright future. One way or another pvp will be suited to fit the game world so that everyone knows why they are fighting and who. Devs have said that they want to mend the pvp and rp/whatever into one solid world. If you don't want any restrictions, play raiders. They are allowed to do whatever they want, or just keep your own total anarchy faction. I'd be more than pleased trying to hunt you down as some sort of sheriff or bounty hunter. The reason why I don't do it now is because evil dudes got so many names and there's no telling who's bad and who's not.
And the old pvp system working? Maybe for some, but basically every new player feedback is partially about why they were killed by people they didn't provoke in any way.

[Nice_Boat]

Splitting the playerbase to "you and we" won't have a bright future. One way or another pvp will be suited to fit the game world so that everyone knows why they are fighting and who. Devs have said that they want to mend the pvp and rp/whatever into one solid world.

Actually it is one solid world, because most of the factions that do the fighting also do a lot of trading - so you may not be aware of that fact, but the person you sold the rockets yesterday could be the person blowing you up tommorow. Same with rp - it happens from time to time even for "hardcore powergamers lol", for example when they negotiate their position inside their alliance etc. It's actually a wonderfully complex and interlinked environment - but you have to actually play and reach the endgame to appreciate it, something I'm more and more sure Badger didn't bother to do (and if you did, what's your gang, man - and what's your position in it?).

If you don't want any restrictions, play raiders. They are allowed to do whatever they want, or just keep your own total anarchy faction. I'd be more than pleased trying to hunt you down as some sort of sheriff or bounty hunter. The reason why I don't do it now is because evil dudes got so many names and there's no telling who's bad and who's not.

We're playing raiders, we're fighting the NA who fancy themselves the sheriffs of the vastes, you might want to join their cause. They have the names you need etc. If you want to play raiders, join us. This part of the game works, but to get to some serious groups you need to put some effort in - is that really bad? What do you propose instead - forcing veteran players to fight side by side with newbies? Replacing player driven politics with some bullshit "NCR vs Vault City" noone's going to care about? Nobody's going to enjoy that in the long run (because it's much more shallow than what we have now) and it's going to look more like a public Counter-Strike game than "well-structured PvP placed in a proper context". You could have some occasions for beginner PvP based around AI factions, but that would be way better if the player-driven caravan system was implemented as an addition to town control we have now.

And the old pvp system working? Maybe for some, but basically every new player feedback is partially about why they were killed by people they didn't provoke in any way.

Are you telling me that there are new players who don't know there's a major, large scale war going on? If so they should get informed before trying to travel because well, you know, wasteland is harsh...