Other > Suggestions
Stealing out of control ! Tighten the leash...
avv:
--- Quote from: HertogJan on December 15, 2010, 11:04:15 AM ---As a thief you're already hated by those who know you, by your victims and have a neutral or worse rep with the town's npc faction(s). So you're also already punished. The negative reputation makes it troublesome and very risky to travel. Any encounter with any faction you have a less than -300 rep with means you'll most likely get shot. Thief characters aren't fighter builds, so they're not likely to survive an encounter. Especially with the time out after getting attacked.
--- End quote ---
Negative rep isn't a punishment at all as long as you're protected by the guards. What comes to hostile encounters, it's not a big deal since thieves don't wear armors or use guns, or carry around large ammounts of items. The worst that can happen to a smart thief is that he loses something valuable he just stole because of hostile patrol.
--- Quote ---If stealing and therefore the usage of your character becomes basically impossible, you have no other choice. People already see you stealing so they know who you are and what you do.
--- End quote ---
Impossible? Nope. You just have to steal so that your victim doesn't notice it, like real thieves. Not just place yourself next to someone and take his belongings while everyone is watching. Succesful steal attempt only means that you managed to grap the item, not that nobody saw it happen.
--- Quote ---As long as their faction isn't a victim and as long as it's not inside their walls (Junktown, VC inner city, etc.) they wouldn't care.
--- End quote ---
Which could be actually good because then players would stick to their npc factions to get the guards listen to them.
--- Quote ---Either you suspect someone to be a thief or you know, there is no other way to resist. At most you can shout thief, but such things are already done.
Someone in another thread mentioned the idea of being able to mark 1 player as a thief and use autopush on it when he gets too close.
No matter what you change, it can still be abused. Just go stand next to someone.
--- End quote ---
That's just bad suggestion. Better would be that when the person is tagged and tries to steal, he gets instantly caught.
HertogJan:
--- Quote from: avv on December 15, 2010, 11:36:07 AM ---Negative rep isn't a punishment at all as long as you're protected by the guards. What comes to hostile encounters, it's not a big deal since thieves don't wear armors or use guns, or carry around large ammounts of items. The worst that can happen to a smart thief is that he loses something valuable he just stole because of hostile patrol.
--- End quote ---
If I remember correctly thieves should lose protection for 1 real time hour when they fail. Meaning everyone can shoot them on sight in guarded towns.
At some point thieves will most likely want to move their stuff either to their faction or to sell. I doubt they'll be carrying as much as possible.
Hostile encounters are a big deal for thieves since they most likely have a worse than -300 rep with the town's faction. Which happen to be the npc you might encounter around their town. With a rep worse than -300 it doesn't matter if you're having a gun in your active slot or not.
--- Quote from: avv on December 15, 2010, 11:36:07 AM ---Impossible? Nope. You just have to steal so that your victim doesn't notice it, like real thieves. Not just place yourself next to someone and take his belongings while everyone is watching. Succesful steal attempt only means that you managed to grap the item, not that nobody saw it happen.
--- End quote ---
As with real thieves, people tend to forget their faces and such. So their rep would slightly improve as it does now. With the current animation no one can see what you're doing. You could be using FA, repair, lockpick or steal. People simply can't tell. Thieving mostly goes unnoticed due to crowded areas where people don't pay attention. Like when buying something. The whole "everyone is watching" makes no sense as it would nerve stealing to a level where it's impossible to use it.
--- Quote from: avv on December 15, 2010, 11:36:07 AM ---Which could be actually good because then players would stick to their npc factions to get the guards listen to them.
--- End quote ---
And guards still couldn't do anything as you're not caught in the act by them.
--- Quote from: avv on December 15, 2010, 11:36:07 AM ---That's just bad suggestion. Better would be that when the person is tagged and tries to steal, he gets instantly caught.
--- End quote ---
No, that's a bad suggestion. At most it would be harder as the target would get increased PE and/or the bonuses for stealing from the side or back would be canceled. The autopush was suggested as tagging it to 1 thief max.
avv:
--- Quote from: HertogJan on December 15, 2010, 01:42:40 PM ---As with real thieves, people tend to forget their faces and such.
--- End quote ---
As with real thieves, nobody ever saw them stealing so nobody knows who stole from them.
--- Quote ---With the current animation no one can see what you're doing. You could be using FA, repair, lockpick or steal. People simply can't tell. Thieving mostly goes unnoticed due to crowded areas where people don't pay attention. Like when buying something. The whole "everyone is watching" makes no sense as it would nerve stealing to a level where it's impossible to use it.
--- End quote ---
Can't tell huh? A guy who walks from dude to dude touching them in weird way surely isn't some mass-tickler set loose.
In reality thieving does go unnoticed in crowded areas but in fonline we got isometric view and we can see what happens around us.
What's troubblesome when it comes to steal is that big part of its success relies on the skill's dice roll. It's okay feature when it comes to stealing from npcs and worked okay in fallout singleplayer. But such simplistic feature doesn't suit multiplayer because players aren't bots guided by scripts. When it comes to outmatching another player (managing to steal from him), a dice roll isn't acceptable measurement of victory.
While stealing lacks harsh enough punishments, it also lacks ways for a thief to increase his chances to succeed via smart gameplay. Victims also lack rational ways to resist being stolen from. Think of stealing as pvp: when builds and equipment are equal the smarter player wins. This doesn't apply to stealing because the victim can only avoid the thief, but not defeat him.
--- Quote ---And guards still couldn't do anything as you're not caught in the act by them.
--- End quote ---
That's because there's no way to catch the thief and drag him to the police. But surely they would listen to a member of their own society.
--- Quote ---No, that's a bad suggestion.
--- End quote ---
It would represent how you expect someone to put his hand in your pocket and then grap him from the wrist and alert the guards. A thief caught with hand in cookie jar.
HertogJan:
--- Quote from: avv on December 15, 2010, 02:26:40 PM ---As with real thieves, nobody ever saw them stealing so nobody knows who stole from them.
--- End quote ---
Problem solved than. You don't know, you can't tell, you can't do anything about it.
--- Quote from: avv on December 15, 2010, 02:26:40 PM ---Can't tell huh? A guy who walks from dude to dude touching them in weird way surely isn't some mass-tickler set loose.
In reality thieving does go unnoticed in crowded areas but in fonline we got isometric view and we can see what happens around us.
--- End quote ---
You should see it from your character's point of view, not yours.
The isometric view we have gives us an advantage into seeing (possible) threats approaching.
We can tag them red.
--- Quote from: avv on December 15, 2010, 02:26:40 PM ---What's troubblesome when it comes to steal is that big part of its success relies on the skill's dice roll. It's okay feature when it comes to stealing from npcs and worked okay in fallout singleplayer. But such simplistic feature doesn't suit multiplayer because players aren't bots guided by scripts. When it comes to outmatching another player (managing to steal from him), a dice roll isn't acceptable measurement of victory.
--- End quote ---
This would require the whole game to be redesigned.
Almost everything in PvP, no matter the field, is decided by a dice roll.
--- Quote from: avv on December 15, 2010, 02:26:40 PM ---While stealing lacks harsh enough punishments, it also lacks ways for a thief to increase his chances to succeed via smart gameplay. Victims also lack rational ways to resist being stolen from. Think of stealing as pvp: when builds and equipment are equal the smarter player wins. This doesn't apply to stealing because the victim can only avoid the thief, but not defeat him.
--- End quote ---
Smart thieves steal from behind as the chance of success is bigger.
A failed steal is a win for the victim. Whether it's by walking away or not.
If the victim walks away, the thief can't win, the victim keeps his stuff, so he won.
--- Quote from: avv on December 15, 2010, 02:26:40 PM ---That's because there's no way to catch the thief and drag him to the police. But surely they would listen to a member of their own society.
--- End quote ---
That member still has no proof. So people, possibly with help of friends, report players who than get screwed over by guards.
--- Quote from: avv on December 15, 2010, 02:26:40 PM ---It would represent how you expect someone to put his hand in your pocket and then grap him from the wrist and alert the guards. A thief caught with hand in cookie jar.
--- End quote ---
It would represent how someone draws you attention to something to use it to steal from you.
avv:
--- Quote from: HertogJan on December 20, 2010, 01:23:41 PM ---You should see it from your character's point of view, not yours.
The isometric view we have gives us an advantage into seeing (possible) threats approaching.
--- End quote ---
There's the LoS, we can't see beyond it so we do see things from our char's point of view. Somehow we just see behind us.
--- Quote ---This would require the whole game to be redesigned.
Almost everything in PvP, no matter the field, is decided by a dice roll.
--- End quote ---
That's to prevent players from mastering everything. Dice rolls are okay if there are ways to affect them via situational ingame decisions. Reduce your enemy's chances and raise your own. Stealing has basically no ways to affect the dice roll's outcome via ingame decisions.
--- Quote ---Smart thieves steal from behind as the chance of success is bigger.
--- End quote ---
Except when using pickpocket perk.
--- Quote ---A failed steal is a win for the victim. Whether it's by walking away or not.
If the victim walks away, the thief can't win, the victim keeps his stuff, so he won.
--- End quote ---
A win in fonline terms means lost equipment. Because thieves doubtfully steal while wearing CA and carrying 10k caps their losses are quaranteed to be minimal, but the victim's losses can be very high. If the victim is forced to move, it's either draw or victory to the thief if his plan was just to harass. Thief cannot really lose unless he starts to carry expensive stuff with him.
--- Quote ---That member still has no proof. So people, possibly with help of friends, report players who than get screwed over by guards.
--- End quote ---
His reputation works as proof. The report feature would work so that you simply cannot stage players.
--- Quote ---It would represent how someone draws you attention to something to use it to steal from you.
--- End quote ---
He can try to draw my attention all he likes but if I know he's a thief no tricks can save him.
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