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[Lordus]

 After next wipe:

 1) My idea is, that every single craftable item needs blueprint or similar thing. Even basic knives, spears. Technicaly, we can name them bluepritns, but some of items could be in location, random or stable, accesible for everyone, not consumable (like native totems at a north, where lives tribes). Other could be found in random caves etc.

 So a) basic blueprints like current one (consumable)
 b) fixed blueprints: tribe totems (need to use outdoorsman skill to learn how to craft or use item 25-50 outdoorsman), computer (science skill, cca 25-50 science)

 The purpose is simple => to make longer period of post wipe, when players do not have resources, stuff, wealth in general. So players will fight with even basic weapons first.

 2) Make blueprints as a requirements to be able to use certain weapon (or armor, maybe even drug .. could be discussed). I.e.: if you want to use rocket launcher, you need to "consume" RL blueprint. Without this consumation, your build will get sanction (some negative value to percentage to hit, similar if you have lack of strenght)

 Why? Because players could loot rocket launcher and use it at lvl 5 of their chars to kill everyone.

 3) Make basic blueprints more easy to get.. not only 300 lockpick alts. I understand, that if you get a BP you can trade, you are something like BP hunter and you have to overcome more obstacles.. but 300 lockpick alts is nonsense.


 4) G.E.C.K. = "Garden of Eden Creation Kit" Should be needed item for every faction to create its own first!! base. (Dont forget that you can register your faction name before, so dont worry about stealing of faction names).
 
 Why? To avoid obligatory post wipe scenario: "Most powerful faction" = most numerous faction gets first base, capture every TC locations, harvest enormous stuff and caps, buys supermutants, drugs and absolutely block the gameplay for month or longer after wipe (same scenario as in current or previous sessions).

 GECK should be founded like any other random thing, like fuel cell controller. So you need a little luck. => Better chance for smaller, medium or big faction = every factions except the biggest one to for at least few days hold any TC city.

 Biggest factions will soon or later holds TC location again, but it will give a temporary chance (week, two or three) for other gangs. It could also motivate small gangs to try TC => more varienty in TC sides.

[Skycast]

I think will be good if you can obtain blueprints from disassembling weapons with high sience skill, so for obtain bp for high tier stuff you can disassemble lots of it *_)

[ThePhoenix77]

So tribals have blueprints for spears?

[Lordus]

So tribals have blueprints for spears?

 Totems.

 Actually, tell me, if you are able without internet, wiki or some survival book, just from scratch, create spear that would be something more than knife on stick. I guess you dont.

[ThePhoenix77]

So actual real life tribals have access to internet or survival books?
Mankind has been able to make spears for 1000's of years before books and internet existed. If you live in a primitive tribe then knowledge of such items is passed down through generations. Even in the fallout universe if some tribal discovered information on how to create such tools and passed that knowledge down through their tribe over generations then tribal X of generation 9 wouldn't have access to the original information as there wouldn't have been any need of that information since that knowledge was passed freely around the tribe so as such the information would no longer exist except in the tribal teachings.
It's like saying did you learn to walk, talk and read from a book or internet, no you were taught by your family and later progressed through teachings.

[Lordus]

So actual real life tribals have access to internet or survival books?
Mankind has been able to make spears for 1000's of years before books and internet existed. If you live in a primitive tribe then knowledge of such items is passed down through generations. Even in the fallout universe if some tribal discovered information on how to create such tools and passed that knowledge down through their tribe over generations then tribal X of generation 9 wouldn't have access to the original information as there wouldn't have been any need of that information since that knowledge was passed freely around the tribe so as such the information would no longer exist except in the tribal teachings.
It's like saying did you learn to walk, talk and read from a book or internet, no you were taught by your family and later progressed through teachings.

 "Mankind" needed milions of years to climb down from a tree, hundreds of thousands of years to use a rock and a stick and dozens of thousands of years to use a rock and a stick together. The knowledge of creating and using spears were developing thru time. Check this  http://images.wikia.com/fallout/images/e/e7/SpearFNV.png and this http://thedarkblade.com/wp-content/uploads/atlatl-throw3.jpg do you see difference?

 You need to know how to create tip of the spear, how balance whole spear, how to stabilize it during its fly. You need knowledge of materials, how to prepare them, connect them etc. So simply, you are not able to create spear at this moment, am i right? And tell me, why should bluesuit be able to create spear, and if i mean spear, i mean SPEAR, not knife on the stick.

 There are several ways, how to pass knowledge. Totems, wall paintings are also ways. So if we are talking about Fonline and "artistic licence" how to express knowledge passing process, the result could be simplified. Like Blue print. Or totem. Even the reality is different, you can "download" blueprint of asault weapon, but you wil not be able to create it without any other knowledge (math, physic, chemistry).

So why we should use damn simplified artistic licences, if they are not realistic?

 Because of good gameplay.

 Gameplay?

 Yes, improving gameplay. This is my suggestion, not impotent dialogue about history, for christ.

 Lets make first few days, maybe week after next wipe time of spears, shotguns, pistols, throwing nades, instead of rocketlaunchers, avengers and miniguns. Do you get it Mr. Nitpicker?

[ThePhoenix77]

You want me to nit pick then; Spears can be divided into two broad categories: those designed for thrusting and those designed for throwing.
A spear is a pole weapon consisting of a shaft, usually of wood, with a pointed head.

The head may be simply the sharpened end of the shaft itself, as is the case with bamboo spears,
or it may be made of a more durable material fastened to the shaft, such as flint, obsidian, iron, steel or bronze.

Spear manufacture and use is not confined to human beings. It is also practised by the Pan troglodytes verus subspecies of the Common Chimpanzee. Chimpanzees near Kédougou, Senegal were observed to create spears by breaking straight limbs off trees, stripping them of their bark and side branches, and sharpening one end with their teeth. They then used the weapons to hunt galagos sleeping in hollows. Orangutans also have used spears to fish, presumably after observing humans fishing in a similar manner.

Prehistory
Hunting spear and knife, from Mesa Verde National Park

Archeological evidence found in Germany documents that wooden spears were used for hunting since at least 400,000 years ago. Wood does not preserve well, however, and Craig Stanford, a primatologist and professor of anthropology at the University of Southern California, has suggested that the discovery of spear use by chimpanzees probably means that early humans used wooden spears as well, perhaps, five million years ago.

Neanderthals were constructing stone spear heads from as early as 300,000 BC and by 250,000 years ago, wooden spears were made with fire-hardened points.

From 200,000 BC onwards, Middle Paleolithic humans began to make complex stone blades with flaked edges which were used as spear heads. These stone heads could be fixed to the spear shaft by gum or resin or by bindings made of animal sinew, leather strips or vegetable matter.

During this period, a clear difference remained between spears designed to be thrown and those designed to be used in hand-to-hand combat. By the Magdalenian period (15000-9500 BC), spear-throwers similar to the later atlatl were in use

The most common design for hunting or combat spears since ancient times has incorporated a metal spearhead shaped like a barbed triangle, lozenge or leaf. The heads of fishing spears usually feature barbs or serrated edges.
And I agree with you on. Lets make first few days, maybe week after next wipe time of spears, shotguns, pistols, throwing nades, instead of rocket launchers, avengers and miniguns. I never said I didn't.

Also where did bluesuit come from? If like in the beginning out F2 then you came from a tribe and still had a bluesuit.

Also a throwing spear is a javelin.

[Shonsu]

Good lord Phoenix quit trolling him.  The idea isn't a bad one.  And most of your posts have either been deliberately off the point of what he said or you're just totally missing his points.

Basically he's just saying to extend the idea of blueprints to everything. 

[snailbeast]

In fallout2 there is someone who teaches you how to make sharpened spear with some easy quest.
So it`s possible to make knifes and spears accessible by some easy quest. The same goes to unarmed weapons and attacks so one can have different fighting styles not just by taking different perks but by learning them from different... teachers or, may be mystical strangers wandering in wasteland

[KruskDaMangled]

I have 150 on my lockpick alt, and I've found 2 blueprints so far. You can actually get one from two different quests at least, and the one doesn't involve screwing the pooch with the faction you got the quest from.

[Prometheus Pithras]

yeah and i want the scientific mastercrafting plans for joining a spear with a sharpened stone... please

[Lordus]

Blueprints idea's greatness lies in followings:

 If you want to create some build, specialization, you need only certain BP. You can forget about others. So if you dont have enough time, you need to focus on simple task. Find BP you want.

 Current BP hunting is absolute random. Why it should not be different? You need low tier "BPs" for crafting items, go to north, near tribals. Be carefull, some of them are hostile, and you need something against radscorpion poison. (=radscorpion cave quest idea extended into whole economy system. It si more like repetable quest)

 You need high tier weapon BP? Check former military areas and its surroundings.. but be carefull, there are minefields.

  I admire, if game concept is based on of overcoming obstacles. The way is the goal. But best is, if you require combination of both, passive skills of chars and active skill of human player. BP hunting offers it too. You need lockpick to open chest, but before you need to clear area (kill critters and intimidate players to flee).

 So why should only exist lockping and combat combination (chests in ruined cities)?

 Basic BPs could have (randomly) travelling merchants in their inventory.. and you could steal them. = passive skill. To find their routes you need to experimenting, searching on worldmap where you can find them = active element.

 As  Skycast suggested, BPs could drop even from disasembling = passive skill, if there is any other active element.

 

yeah and i want the scientific mastercrafting plans for joining a spear with a sharpened stone... please

 I know that you are trolling, but i will use your post as an example:

 Old Fonline was based on numbers. You had 150 skill in small guns and 100 in repair => hey, you can create whole new sniper rifle, even you did not touch any before. So why should be "BPs" to laugh, but imaginary numbers not?

 BPs concept replace quantity concept (skill number) by quality concept (BP). The BP itself is not only the one possible way how to get it. You can do quests, learn it from static objects (computer, books, totems) that are consumable or not. But it brings some gameplay.

[ThePhoenix77]

I agree with you on your last post.
IMO there should be a random collection of items in fixboy on character creation based on skill set tied in with tagged skills that include of the very most basic of weapon and ammo you can craft if you meet the base skill requirements. (simply because you must have known something prior to being washed up in the wasteland)
For example an unarmed build - brass knuckles, melee - wooden pole and knife, small guns - pipe rifle and zip gun, big guns - perhaps nothing until you reach a certain skill level as even the flamer as a starting weapon is a powerful weapon unless more big guns are introduced like those in Tactics, energy weapons - perhaps nothing until you reach a certain skill level as even the laser pistol as a starting weapon is a powerful weapon unless more energy weapons are introduced like those in Tactics. traps - molotovs.

After this more weapons and items could be gained from your examples of blueprints for more technical stuff, teachings for basics and quests for progressive items.

If you join an NPC faction you are more likely to gain advantages and benefits quicker than someone who doesn't which even at the most basic level could be access to better items earlier on. Based on a luck roll and skill set you could even have the possibility to start off as part of a NPC faction with no negative effects but this would be rare and at first you wouldn't know about it, some quests could be involved here.

Yes reverse engineering is possible and could possibly be implemented in a logical way. The first time you ever take a spring loaded device apart then it will most probably fly everywhere and you won't have a clue how it goes back together, after a few hundred times of disassembling said item you will slowly learn what not to do and what to do to disassemble said item carefully and efficiently so that you learn how the item goes back together.
But this does not mean that you know how to manufacture the parts for said item. Basic items you can roughly guess and cobble together something similar which works to the same effect.

Also science in itself has nothing to do with manufacturing, you can still manufacture an item after being taught how to manufacture that item with no knowledge of science whatsoever.

example, I don't need to understand how my body works biologically, chemically or how physics is implemented inside my body to have the ability to use my body for tasks such as running which uses breathing, perspiring, brain power, perceptions, pumping blood, and plenty more stuff that I can't think of, don't know about and don't understand but it doesn't stop me from being able to run.

[Eternauta]

Dont worry, this is only warm up round, i am training for post wipe trolling.