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[Rascal_]

the fact that SD gives always max possible crit is totally f up.... its insta-death no matter what char ur playing,
why those crits are not random for f sake ? Solar have You ever played on Reqieum (longer than 1 week - in some faction, did some serious pvp there ?) ?  On requiem there is that ridiculous situation that there are always 2 stages of battle - 1st stage -> pathetic sneakers war both teams launch their snekers (in bumer equl to players on TS/mumble) - side which wins bring their nromal PvP builds on field  and gets advantage of having sneakers there too.  Its totally boring, sick and pathetic. Wars of ghosts... almost every player on TS was complaining about this.. shit. Now we are getting here on 2238 to the same point.... Sneakers where absolutely fine last wipe. They got their very important place in whole PvP.
1 and most important - inetel/info/scouting which is very often the most important thing in the whole battle.
2 possibility to 1hex from lsw some PvP alts
3 possibility to use them as a tactical weapon - 2-4 sneakers with rocet launcher attacking at the same moment the enemy sniper line just before the rush of main forces.

now we are getting some sick ghosts wars when every char can be just killed without any chance to fight back. snekers can loose some shity leather armor and crappy weapon, regular char whole qxpensive equipemnt worth a lot of time spent ingame.

and btw its fallout sneak was ment to be used to SNEAK under enemies(npc) eyes to avoid them/sneak past them, not like some absolutely ridiculous potion of invisibility from baldurs gate!

[Solar]

I wonder if its because uncalled heavily uses target luck for its results and some of these people have dumped their luck to 1

T888, that's not really a fair comparison, more changed to sneak, so facing modifiers before are not a direct comparion.

If sneak really does become a problem and everyone turns into sneakers then I think the front modifier being more harsh would be good, keep the whole sneak thing about using space well.

I did say "if" in that last sentence before either side of the argument goes mad :p

[JovankaB]

If sneak really does become a problem and everyone turns into sneakers

Even I started sneak burster char yesterday, if someone knew me, this alone would say something
Dumped it already though, I can't be bothered with leveling something that can be only used to rape people.
And I'm quite sure sooner or later you will nerf it Solar (even if you don't know it yet), so even less reason
to waste time xping...

I think bigger front penalty and not taking into account any crit table modifiers when doing SD attack
(SD critical would be completely random) would be good enough. Or maybe making grease gun weaker.

[mr Wipe]

please just nerf this silent death greese guns smurfs...it is riddicilous that 160hp bluesuit with trash gun can easly kill 290hp ca heavy armed and armored bg with tons of ammo and guns...dealing 600-800 damage from behind is little strange...even bg with +++brd and avenger cant deal this damage from 1hex to ca tank...i know now all newbiez are happy because they can kill anyone with gun from encounter and loot 30k stuff from dead body...my solution nerf damage of silent death to max 230-280 form 1hex using p90 with silent death and better crit and brd, or just disable brust mode for silent death...in 3-4weeks when newbiez will craft/buy/loot some hq stuff will start crying "omg i lost my persious stuff killed by trash greese gunn ninja smurf" omg smurf nija just killed my 300-400hp muties with single shoot...omg wtf...omg wtf...nerf it cause we cant play...;]
this will happen soon or later...mark my words

[T-888]

If sneak really does become a problem and everyone turns into sneakers then I think the front modifier being more harsh would be good, keep the whole sneak thing about using space well.

Yes.

Some hope was born , please just think about this it's less than it was before wipe but not too much should be balanced -128% front , -64% front-side , -32% back side and -16% back. These modifiers have very big impact since sneak is capped at 300 now , you should know that.

People seem to be concerned about this silent death , just make critical bursts less powerful for silent death that way not spoiling people builds completely , just in case you nerf it

[mr Wipe]

nerf from 600-900 critical damage from 5hex vs 290hp ca ++toughnes tank to 300-400 ?
silent death sneker is just running death finger...from 1 hex he can kill 500hp ma mk2 mercs militia with single burst. snekaer with shity greese gun just cant kill 290 hp ca tank with single non hex shoot! silend death should be good to kill solo sniper or wounded tank...nerf it...now snekaer is nabz build...

[Gatling]

Criticals are always a problem seems. You bring out more anti-critical perks while at the same time introducing Another perk for sneaking, which enables brute force damage via Criticals yet again...

As Jovanka has said, it requires a nerf, somehow.  I miss the Armor penalties while sneaking, too, if they are gone( not sure, heard someone say that they were wearing CA while sneaked). As well, running(while remaining stealthed) should give a penalty. Or movement in general( a lower penalty for walking, higher for running). Just ideas, I am not an expert on the subject. Seen some of it, though, and it is ridiculous so far.

[Eraus]

If somehow this insane dmg stays forever, just please make that sneakers must spend same amount in "caps" in gear to kill target who spend mucho capso for their equipment. Because now if I catch that smgs sneaker he will just say: haha no problemo have another 20 smgs in my tent .

[SEGA_RUS]

Hm...at this moment i know about 2 sneakers with SD - it's me and Belmondo
smg got 20 range and -1AP to burst instead 15 range from GreaseGun, but it hard to find(afaik it's possible from VC or BH caravans)
anyway it's imbalanse

[Dixie]

when you walk around with no gear and get killed very easily, why are people suprised and angry? it's the same thing with hh, people die once while having no gear. and suddenly they refer to hh being overlords who cannot be beaten by anyone and immidiently needs to be nerfed.

I say, let this play out for some time. see what happens, what when people start using proximity sensors? how will that go? Don't nerf anything till you have seen it in action for quite some time. factions, and people are still developing. Because of this there is no true balance of power yet. and no one knows or can know what is OP and what isn't.

Well said. When said no gear I mentally added "and no backup." In any unprotected area used for resource gathering you either risk it and go in alone with nothing to lose but the resources you gathered and accept the consequences of your decision or you go in with the full protection of your gang. If you have no gang get one. One silent burster isnt going to take out a whole gang. More likely they will move on to easier prey.

EDIT: I should probably point out that I have have no sneak build and have no plans to make one. Not for fighting anyway   So my opinion isn't biased towards sneak at all. Personally sneak is not for battle as much as it is for avoiding it and for professional thieves of course.

EDIT 2: After reading over the critics reviews of the new sneak calling it OPed an idea came to me that I think would add a cool element to the game as well as making both sides of the argument relatively happy [or not so POed]  . Why not make more use of those little sound effects that are already in game? So that when one tries to use sneak while swinging a big SMG around at their side they are given away not by sight but by the sound of clinking metal parts. Like that sound you hear when idle and holding pretty much any gun. That would atleast give the alert victim fair warning that danger is near and take extra precautions or start running, or take some psycho, or turn around or whatever.

Would also be cool since now there is that throwing to hexes ability if we could have some kind of powder or dust or sand we could throw that would reveal anyone sneaking within the range and direction of the thrown powder. Or reduce their sneak to some extent if they are hit by the powder. Or maybe brightly colored dyes or paints or something that could be bought from tribals [they make for their war paints]. Just brainstorming.

[Mithguar]

Actualy, sneak as it is now, should be nerfed. Don't get me wrong. I'm not talking about sneak as OP. Rather its post apocaliptic wastland, but i didn't see any mages and demons and stuff... exept for invisibility spell(sneak), and i don't think it should be fantsy world. Explain how can a guy sneak in middle of desert without single stone or tree? I understand if he have stealth boy. But without one it should be impossible. Sneaker should stick to walls, trees. Something that can cover him. Or at least leave it as it is at night or in buildings but nerf it in daylight in outdoors. Just logical suggestion...

Say NO to magic ninja kicking you in da face at noon...

[zato1]

i agree and think stealth should only apply within a certain radius of an object, depending on your sneak skill..
it is dumb that folks can run invisible through broad daylight. this is not sneaking, that is pure invisibility.

i do play sneakers - my main is a 181 sneak cover sniper (uses +90 bonus and ghost for 270 sneak ~5 hexes of walls) along with a 271 sneak melee alt, and i can tell you from experience that sneak is overpowered, especially in conjunction with silent death.

honestly, i think silent death should have burst removed, and add in the ability for 2h rifles to be used with the perk. okay, this time im showing my bias. id really like to use SD from 40 hex with a hunting rifle. LOL.

[SEGA_RUS]

Actualy, sneak as it is now, should be nerfed. Don't get me wrong. I'm not talking about sneak as OP. Rather its post apocaliptic wastland, but i didn't see any mages and demons and stuff... exept for invisibility spell(sneak), and i don't think it should be fantsy world. Explain how can a guy sneak in middle of desert without single stone or tree? I understand if he have stealth boy. But without one it should be impossible. Sneaker should stick to walls, trees. Something that can cover him. Or at least leave it as it is at night or in buildings but nerf it in daylight in outdoors. Just logical suggestion...

Say NO to magic ninja kicking you in da face at noon...

all unreal - is heritage from Fallout 1\2

[JovankaB]

all unreal - is heritage from Fallout 1\2

And this is not Fallout 1\2, it's FOnline - multiplayer game.
In Fallout 1\2 enemies couldn't sneak and so it wasn't so obviously silly.

[HellRazor]

I think that problem here is that crit bursts are too powerful, not that silent death or sneaking is. So in my opinion if something has to be changed it should not be sneak detection or ability to burst with silent death, but simply make crit bursts do less damage.