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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Closed suggestions => Topic started by: Nice_Boat on June 25, 2010, 12:48:24 pm
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This thread is neither an accusation nor a confession,
and least of all an adventure,
for counter-trolling is not an adventure
to those who stand face to face with it.
It will simply try to tell of a group of players who,
even though they may have escaped the posts,
were destroyed by the trolls...
This is coming from an experienced PvP player who had to deal with bullshit produced here for quite a long time... I don't know, probably over a year, starting from the old forums. Look. The combat system, as it stands, is balanced. People are using BG, SG, EW and heck, even throwing - and there's no way of telling what's DA STRONGEST. As it stands, unless there comes a build to kill them all (I don't think it'll ever come though), combat is graded A+. My suggestion is: quit allowing suggestions on weapon stats. Quit allowing suggestions on combat mechanics. And if you have to do some shit, treat it seriously. Do a closed beta test. This kind of balance is not easily achieved, and you could ruin it with something as trivial as increasing the AP cost of some weapon by 1 or changing the values for a box of ammo. Let's face it. This is the best original Fallout mechanics have to offer. To do any better as far as realism goes would mean to depart from source material... because honestly, the source material ain't that good when it comes to that. To do any better as far as balance goes... well, you can't, really. Kudos to the dev-team for that. Let's just wrap it up and move on.
I suggest making a serious decision whether we should:
a) keep it close to F1 and F2
b) develop an entirely new combat system, changing the guns etc. as we go and basically start from scratch.
If we choose a) (because honestly, who cares if the minigun fills the rl role of a submachinegun or the grenade takes 0.001 of a second to throw - as long as it looks cool), let's just stop it. At this time the only thing that's hurting combat is stuff-other-than-combat. Drugs. Preview. The economy. Shit like that.
No more insta-kill nerfs. No more major BG adjustments. No more anything that would flip the table upside-down. Endgame weapons are good as they are. And yes. This is probably the first suggestion not to do something instead of doing something. But saving what we have is well worth it.
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Do a closed beta test.
If only !...
What do you suggest ? If it's not to change anything, it belongs to General Game discussions.
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If only !...
What do you suggest ? If it's not to change anything, it belongs to General Game discussions.
I suggest not to do stuff with weapons and armors and to do stuff to preview and drugs. In my opinion, this belongs to this board because honestly, this board needs to hear this. A suggestion that something is REALLY good is as valuable as the suggestion to make it +1 or -2 if the stuff remains flexible, if you catch my drift.
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Hrm, I don't imagine there will be any big changes to the weapons or the crit tables from now on. Drugs and Perks still need some work and I imagine a CBT similar to the TC one would be used when the time comes.
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The combat system, as it stands, is balanced.
Between powerbuilt combat chars with alt crafters supporting them. It is balanced around how players play it. But is the way they play it how devs would have wanted?
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It's "balanced" because players have balanced themselves around it.
Honestly, I still think some Tactics stuff could be thrown in, like crouching and lying prone... but that has to wait till the 3d models get put in
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The event was completely dominated by BG minigun builds, I wouldn't call that balanced.
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The event was completely dominated by BG minigun builds, I wouldn't call that balanced.
Huh, totally false, I was one and really haven't fight more minigun than other builds (much more SG/RL/energy/thrower)
And I agree, I find the actual system very balanced.
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I find BG to be much MUCH more powerful than SG. Much more powerful than to account for the scarcity of the guns and ammo for BG. All you need is an alt. The reason there is this many SG, is because most noobs start as SG, and there are a lot of noobs in this game. I've had a party of 5 been taken out by one guy with a minigun. Minigun has such superior range, he can take you out before you even see him, and it takes you out pretty much instantaneously.
I guess one thing that balances a tiny bit is that if you get minigunned, mostly all your shit gets destroyed.
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What about melee and unarmed characters? Do you find balance there, too?
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Snipers rely on luck, big guns can 1-2 shot anyone. Hardly balanced.
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sneak is unbalanced, supposed to be nerfed, srsly, a band of looting alts that cannot be noticed takes all the stuff when TC takes place
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I only had minigun experience from the receiving end ( ;D), but if it is such an issue...
Why not add a small chance of the firing character being knocked down unless they wear Power Armor? Modified to some respect by strength, obviously, but still sufficiently likely to occur (though not too often - it should be something to consider, and sometimes impacting the flow of combat, but not frequently enough to cripple minigun use) to make it a consideration for the gunner?
It fits the lore (miniguns were meant for PA use), adds a balancing factor to the combat system (if it is needed - from what I read on the forums it seems that miniguns do offer much greater advantage in real-time combat compared to other weapons), and also makes combat more exciting (as long as it does not make it frustrating with too big of a penalty).
Melee and unarmed builds are for masochists purely. Which probably explains why I'm having so much fun with the former ;D A small compensation for their difficulty might be lowering aimed shots cost - in PvE, they are at a disadvantage because of the need of closing with opponents (see Endless Walker combat tactics as an example), and in PvP the mere necessity of pulling up aiming window puts one at a severe disadvantage.
My half a cap.
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sneak is unbalanced, supposed to be nerfed, srsly, a band of looting alts that cannot be noticed takes all the stuff when TC takes place
sneak is perfect as is. The skill drain balances it completely.
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listen dude i have 12 P and cannot notice an alt 7 hex away from me looting stuff, and im talking about alts with 300 sneak its not balanced as long as people can use alts
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listen dude i have 12 P and cannot notice an alt 7 hex away from me looting stuff, and im talking about alts with 300 sneak its not balanced as long as people can use alts
First off you can see him at 12 hex, one shot breaks his sneak. Even with 10 int there aren't a lot of points lets over for anything but sneak and in tb he can't re enter sneak.
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and what about BG cha's with 7, 8 P ?
check that out one more time, im talking about looter's alts all they need is 300 sneak, BG 80 that alllows them get experience and some fa, out
and im talking about town control since when have u got turns in TC ?
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Then its a problem with looting not breaking sneak. Silly to nerf the entire skill for one problem.
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Then its a problem with looting not breaking sneak. Silly to nerf the entire skill for one problem.
why would looting break sneak? Maybe if it was a chance to break sneak with skill vs item weight or something.
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Solar, it s a huge problem stuff disapears right in front of u while u cannot do anything, if u step forward to kill the f** ghost, u will get a knockdown or knockout, bullshit ...
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I do agree that as it is now the weapons systems is relatively balanced. Or rather there isn't an ocean dividing things at least. I'm not sure about energy weapons at all so don't listen to me in that regard. I question the worries of grenades being overpowered, but I'm hopeful that it won't be a total catastrophe if they are changed.
"Small guns" typically means snipers in my experience. I don't think small guns bursters measure up well against the other weapons (The biggest advantage of small guns burster is that I don't need much SPECIAL/Skills, so I can easily invest those into other areas so i can taxi/craft, and its easier to craft ammo typically) But is that enough? Should things like that be considered, or should the end result in a straight combat fight be the only thing considered? They aren't useless and things can stay the same at least.
Sneak is one of those skills that if nerfed would be completely useless, if buffed completely overpowered, and the "balanced" range is a tiny little sliver. I think things are adequate for now, but I can't say that with much certainty.
Personally I just want to see balance in perks/traits, and then see some concentration on game content, then I would be happy.
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Solar, it s a huge problem stuff disapears right in front of u while u cannot do anything, if u step forward to kill the f** ghost, u will get a knockdown or knockout, bullshit ...
So you're getting butthurt about the winning side looting stuff in your sight? Hmmm...
Because, honestly, why wasn't it your f** ghost looting in front of them? Why didn't you have your own ghost to decloak him? There's no problem with sneak right now - it's usable, but not abusable and it should remain so.
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since when a ghost can pick up anything right in front of u unless u are a completely blind person?
picking up anything supposed to turn off the sneak mode, in my opinion sneak supposed to be left dead as it was before the wipe
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So you're getting butthurt about the winning side looting stuff in your sight? Hmmm...
it doesnt make sense if my char with 8 Per that is GOOD, cannot see a guy STANDING 7-8 hexes away for the fuck sake there is no walls, no trees, nothing and i still cannot see him, MAGIC ? NOT.
its again fucking sneak, on top of that hes looting avengers and other heavy stuff and i still cannot see him. u can ask why. b/c someone is using an alt after fast relog with "skilled" and 10 int, his sneak skill is 300, also there is many other looters people who didnt fight they just come to get some expensive free stuff all they risk is being respawn far away, also its quite easy to loot and run away if u see someone coming after missing stuff, its like a never ending story, the GHOST is picking up something u go get him he runs away comes from the other side and loot something else, unless u have enough people to stand on the stuff u cannot do too much
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Possible solution is a lock-out of an area for the duration of conflict (or set timer). No walk-outs allowed, only walk-ins. Pretty sure this could be done without upsetting any other part of the game.
Actually, that would also work wonders for the most common stealing method - run up, steal, run off into a transition, log off until you think the flag expired.
Take it as you will.
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Possible solution is a lock-out of an area for the duration of conflict (or set timer). No walk-outs allowed, only walk-ins. Pretty sure this could be done without upsetting any other part of the game.
Actually, that would also work wonders for the most common stealing method - run up, steal, run off into a transition, log off until you think the flag expired.
Take it as you will.
and then you end up with TB deathtraps everywhere.
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and then you end up with TB deathtraps everywhere.
TC is never turn-based.
Combat taking part in a town is never turn-based.
Encounters elsewhere affect only the players involved. In case of stealing, an obvious solution to prevent abuse of this mechanism would be to limit the restriction to the thief alone. I should have made that clear initially, my apologies.
Am I missing anything?
Edit: It would help to read what I write, and not assume just because the meaning is clear in my head I am communicating it all...
Possible solution is a lock-out of an area for the duration of conflict (or set timer)
Meant as a suggestion for TC combat (since my impression is that is where the stealth-looting occurs).
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double post
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picking up stuff supposed to close the sneak mode, thats it, also ghosts bombers are a problem during TC, other factions use kamikaze alts, fast relog and atack, devs did u think about all these problems before u reactivated the sneak? against kamikaze alts there is no much we can do as well, most of the times when u notice one of them there is too late to act, shoot or do anything he just explodes next to u, since we have to defend some area isnt it retarded ?
oh and i have a question:
if i sneak and have something in my inventory does it reduce my sneak skill or it must be in one of my hands or in armor slot?
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picking up stuff supposed to close the sneak mode, thats it, also ghosts bombers are a problem during TC, other factions use kamikaze alts, fast relog and atack, devs did u think about all these problems before u reactivated the sneak? against kamikaze alts there is no much we can do as well, most of the times when u notice one of them there is too late to act, shoot or do anything he just explodes next to u, since we have to defend some area isnt it retarded ?
oh and i have a question:
if i sneak and have something in my inventory does it reduce my sneak skill or it must be in one of my hands or in armor slot?
So you complain about a skill you don't even know anything about with absurd scenarios?
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i know very well, its amazing when i see a guy ... i mean i see stuff that is picked up by a ghost a few hexes away, an avenger, metal armor, another armor, ammo and i still cannot see the guy so there is my question is it bugged or what ?
also Roachor try to write something that makes sense all u do is trolling ( now i know how u got so many posts ), u know there are people out there who play this game, and srsly it doesnt make sense to me that every single looter in this game first of all see a big green announcement "" some "free" expensive stuff can be picked up somewhere "" then he gets his blue looter sneak acc and goes loot something, only yesterday in reeding i killed atleast 6-7 blue suite sneak looters most of them fast relogers ( hello nice boat ), which is no good since it again makes me sick b/c killing any one of them is fucking troublesome if they have any experience and atleast some gray mass inside their skull
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Whatdid i write that you did not understand? I'm not trying to troll you.
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My helpful and caring nature simple does not allow me to pass this occasion to assist:
Killy is saying that in his experience the current system allows using an alt character that only focuses on sneaking to loot items with impunity at certain range, despite a reasonably high Perception character nearby. Given the special requirements in creating a character that would have reasonable detection chance to combat such activities cannot be combined with combat skills, he claims this is exploitation of the system.
So far there were two types of responses to his assertion, to paraphrase.
1. This is part of the game, and does not require changing because you can use your own specialized character to counter
2. "You don't know what you are talking about"
He then elaborates further on possible scenario that is used to prove why he considers it abuse. Since the second response came from you, Roachor, he accuses you of trolling. Of course, Killy's choice of words and turn of phrases do not help, either.
In a nutshell:
(http://msfriendly.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/wreck1.jpg)
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well said, as was said even if u have 12 P u can see the looter with 300 sneak from 12 hexes, do u know how far it is? 12 hexes is nothing it s like a road in broken hills, also is it some kind of magic? u can be a guy with eagle eye with eyes like a superman and in front of u is a little dwarf using magic, the dwarf doesnt have to hide behind some objects, more than that he runs and picks up stuff, and what i noticed is no matter how much he loots he is still invisible, on top of that u know what? its a middle of a battle u are trying to shoot down some incoming soldiers, atm the dwarf just looted ba worth 15k and avenger, unseen hes walking away ...
i would post a link a gif with a guy shooting laser beams out of his mouth
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even if u have 12 P u can see the looter with 300 sneak from 12 hexes
10 Pe = 50 hexes + 6 for Sharpshooter
(300-75)/6 = 37.5
56-37 = 19
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how much is 19 hexes? a blind alt can see more than that , why u let them loot stuff what about sneak alt bombers in TC ? are u gonna say anything about it ?
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(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/9495/1262374845371.jpg)
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Why not add a small chance of the firing character being knocked down unless they wear Power Armor?
There is no Power Armors in-game.
...Until the contest end at July 1st.
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how much is 19 hexes? a blind alt can see more than that , why u let them loot stuff what about sneak alt bombers in TC ? are u gonna say anything about it ?
+7 on 12 ;)
Looting, as I said earlier, could just break sneak ... presuming its a widely accepted problem.
Sneak alt bombers. Alts will be found and banned by the GMs, but bombers in TC are fine by me. Dont know why there isnt more dynamite used in it really, great way to remove doors and blast through walls to defenders.
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This seems to me a problem only he has, also since when can you blow up walls? Can you do it to any wall or only certain spots?
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i think solar meant that the explosion penetrates walls...
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oh, less exciting.
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Its a great idea tho, and while its work, work, work, its possible to make. Like: wall sprite in vicinity of explosion: remove wall tile, replace with broken wall sprite. If GMs can remove stuff in RT without reloading the map, then definately should be done :P
As for ON TOPIC(sneak is fine imo):
I vote for B, new system. TB vs RT. Cant be balanced without ruining the other. If some day it would be possible, then there should be a seperate ruleset(mechanics) for TB and RT combat. All cities should have RT ruleset, PVE encounters(TB) should be left with current mechanics. If the player enters the encounter in RT mode, then naturally the RT ruleset would be applied.
Because....The game was made for TB. RT could be balanced but its still just aiming the same gun, the same dude, aiming for eyes, all the time. No time to think, no time to act. Its just chaos.
Like some RT rules which doesnt need much work and doesnt have new mechanics and doesnt help much, but at least would slow down the killing: HP doubled, heal doubled(may need restrictions), less crippling chances, and ffs less chance for an instakill. ...Just an example
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The sneaking does seem a little bit overpowered to me. Although changing it would make it underpowered.
I don't like it because the guy is literally invisible unless you are close to him, which doesn't make any sense. You can see something much further than the sneaking guy is, yet he is invisible to you... Because he's walking silently? :o
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Sneak=invisibility in any game is unbalanced period! The people defending it likes it cuz when you are invisible your are invincible! I have to agree that high PE should break invisibility, also if looting dont break sneak, than this is a bug as Solar mentioned.
Last point, about alt sucide bombers, imo having GMs to police this is not effective and productive use of resources. kamikaze style sucide attacks in a post holocast world where people is trying to suvive doesnt really make sense. I would suggest that for sucide bombers, they should be a drug pychopath and he/she should be taking a drug that makes him glow and that he will be semi-invincible for a certain time, i.e. he/she can be knockdown and his hp is doubled. So if he/she dont take the drug the bomb wont explode, also the drug needs certain time to take effect, and after the effect is over, than the bomb will explode.
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as for me - sneak looting is an abuse.
sneak shpuld be cheked everytime you pickup smtng.
The one way to make it more ballanced without nerfing the sneak is to introduce possibility to aim hextile without a player on it. - 1 grenade - bb sneaker if you know where he is.....