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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Closed suggestions => Topic started by: Izual on June 24, 2010, 10:52:48 am
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Basically, I suggest that when you have a big gun (except Rocket Launcher) in your inventory, you can't run.
- Why in inventory and not just in active hands ?
Because then fighters would just put their gun in their inventory, run, take it in their hands, and repeat.
- Omfgwtf, leave big guns alone noo-
Well, big guns deal great damage, have great range, are very effective (look at the BG users around), and well, in one word, they are deadly. Not being able to run only means they will need to use team tactics, not that their damage/range/etc is nerfed.
- Well, okay but all in all, why do you post this suggestion ?
Because I'm for balanced battles with different categories of weapons, where each weapon has its own particularity. Moreover, this idea brings TACTICS. You won't just send in your big guns and wait for them to clean the place, no. During a big battle, you'll need to cover them with snipers, or to use them inside buildings, or in narrow streets, or to put them in some strategic place to make sure nobody passes through.
Don't forget they are support weapons (except Rocket Launcher, I don't see why you wouldn't run with one), and main thing with support weapon is, they are deadly, but you can't just leave them alone in a town or in the middle of the desert to clean a place.
If you are doubtful about this idea, just look at the town control videos in my youtube account, it is quite enlightening.
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May be simply with 3D possibilities it'll be possible to regulate movement speed, so encumbrance will affect it, so of couse BG weapon has more weight than any other, also it'll be good for HtHers, because they almost don't have items at all.
So BGers will move slow, EW snipers and SG snipers at average speed and melee/unarmed fast. Also it'll some reason to equip light armors from jacket to leather for lower weight and faster movement at combat.
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It's a good idea mostly.
Basically, I suggest that when you have a big gun (except Rocket Launcher) in your inventory, you can't run.
This has to be rethought. Someone might just want to sell his big gun and that has nothing to do with combat balance. Why not have longer wielding animation for big gun and then have run only?
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rotfl, no.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txGegkyZ5cs
Does Animal Mother look like he's having trouble running? Would you have trouble running with something that weights 11kg? If so, try some weightlifting.
From the gameplay perspective - I don't even know where to start dissing this shitty idea, and I personally think it's a troll so I won't bite, sorry.
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Yeah Nice_Boat, better not troll here. You have no arguments, that's all, I don't care and you don't care ;). Weight of minigun is quite wrong, look at the .frm of a guy wielding a minigun, and tell me if it looks like you can run with that, or if its weight is really 11 kgs. Animal Mother has something like a M60, not an avenger, and seriously, he'd obviously run slower than a sniper. Plus, I'm taking as a reference FOnline graphics, not Stanley Kubrick's movies. But yes, don't vote for a suggestion that would make your BG alt less powerful ;)
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Realism of weight is not a good argument, it's a game and it's supposed to be interesting and fun not realistic. After all miniguns can't be carried at all, they are mounted on vehicles and need power supply to fire, so if you bring realism as an argument, you should support removing miniguns.
I think difference in run speed based on weight of stuff you hold in both hands could bring some tactics and make guns like SMGs and shotguns a bit more useful. The problem is, there are or only 2 states: you run or you walk, and the difference is just to big. I think it could be like: -2 * weight of items you hold in hands %, so for example holding a minigun would be -25% run speed penalty, P90 would be -7%.
I don't think hiding items in inventory would be a problem, because it takes time and Action Points to move stuff from/to inventory + you have to stand still for a second. It would make quick pockets perk a bit more useful.
I see 2 problems here: run animations would look a bit silly, and maybe it would be hard to implement in turn based mode (though TB doesn't have run/walk anyway).
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Realism of weight is not a good argument, it's a game and it's supposed to be interesting and fun not realistic. After all miniguns can't be carried at all, they are mounted on vehicles and need power supply to fire, so if you bring realism as an argument, you should support removing miniguns.
I think difference in movement speed based on weight of stuff you hold in both hands could bring some tactics and make guns like SMGs and shotguns a bit more useful (along with Strength attribute and carry perks). The problem is, there or only 2 states: you run or you walk, and the difference is just to big. I think it could be like: -2 * weight of items you hold in hands %, so for example holding a minigun would be -25% run speed penalty, P90 would be -7%.
I don't think hiding items in inventory would be a problem, because it takes time and Action Points to move stuff from/to inventory.
I see 2 problems here: run animations would look a bit silly, and it would be hard to implement in turn based mode.
In TB weight can affect your sequence, and hight carry weight will force you to spend 2 APs per hex (very high weight).
In RT it'll affect your movement speed, but it'll be possible (may be) only with 3D.
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Yeah Nice_Boat, better not troll here. You have no arguments, that's all, I don't care and you don't care ;). Weight of minigun is quite wrong, look at the .frm of a guy wielding a minigun, and tell me if it looks like you can run with that, or if its weight is really 11 kgs. Animal Mother has something like a M60, not an avenger, and seriously, he'd obviously run slower than a sniper. Plus, I'm taking as a reference FOnline graphics, not Stanley Kubrick's movies. But yes, don't vote for a suggestion that would make your BG alt less powerful ;)
Ok, so sadly you weren't trolling.
First of all, the weight is more or less correct.
http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Firearms/Machine-Guns/GE_XM214_Minigun.htm
5.56, 6 barrels - the closest to 6 barrel 5mm from Fallout - weights 14 kg. The one in Fallout weights 12.7 kg, which would be realistic if you forget about the fact that using a minigun as an infantry weapon is ridiculous because of feeding/recoil.
The animations prove nothing. Both sniper rifle and assault rifle are fired from the hip, does it look like you could hit anyone with that? How about in the eye? Besides - noticed how the weapon "disappears" once you start running? Well, that probably means it's being lowered/slinged/whatever, and since Minigun is neither exceptionally large nor heavy, there's no reason why it should be so much more cumbersome than a sniper or laser rifle. The only thing you wouldn't be able to do with that would be firing while prone - Fallout Tactics had it quite right.
Next, the "ad personam" argument about me having a BG alt. If you ever bothered to check, you'd notice that I mostly play EW builds. Yes, I have a psycho-BG getting all covered in dust by now, but I use it for like 10% of the action I take part in. So there you go, once again your rationale is misguided.
Finally, and most importantly (because the things mentioned above are mostly trivial) gameplay and balance. It's big, so let's divide stuff for our convenience:
1. Fighting system on 2238 in general. It's about maneuver. Most action is determined by maneuver, the ability to flank, concentrate force quickly, coordinate et cetera. Which means running. Moreover, in a microscale, most encounters are determined by simple maneuvers too. The ability to run to the other side of the street to zap a guy before he hides. The ability to run back to your team once you're being shot at. The ability to run up and get into range. You can't do any of that? You're basically worthless. Playing a BG is not about having raw firepower, because honestly you're inferior to mostly anything at long range and stuff gets equal on midrange. It's about blitz tactics. It's about the ability to quickly advance upon your enemy and shoot him point blank seconds after breaking cover. The emphasis is on the word "quickly". Disabling running would mean BG would be effective at blocking doorways only. I don't think anyone would be happy with playing a somewhat sophisticated landmine.
2. The misguided notion that BG are overpowered. It shows its ugly head each time the permament NCR dwellers discuss PvP. It's bullshit for two reasons:
a) It's expensive to maintain. Ridiculously so.
b) BG don't stun. Don't knockdown. Don't instakill. Depend on the distance a lot. See where I'm going with that? It's a niche weapon for specific situations. It's nowhere near the flexibility of a sniper/laser rifle.
And there's also this thing that people are using all kinds of builds in PvP these days. You see a lot of EW, a lot of BG and some SG. Hell, even some sneak-grenadiers. I wonder how many BG players you'd see if they were forced to act like cripples. You don't even have to implement your suggestion to see how much it'd suck. Just make a BG build and ask your teammate to cripple your leg before you go in.
3. Your TC movies, which are the only rationale you provided to support your suggestion. I say screw that and watch some Red Dot stuff instead. They go 100% jet snipers and kick some serious ass in some of them. How about the infamous Modoc Fail? There was this flank full of snipers blowing stuff to bits and pieces with BG users helplessly hunkering behind the building or getting killed if they rushed. How about going to see TC today? You'd be surprised seeing how popular EW have recently got. But, as usual, it's just a matter of fashion and minor fine-tuning. This game is evolving, the builds are evolving - that's why you see change in popularity. The point being no class is superior to other classes, it's just that a member of this class thought up something friggin' good in the recent times and people have started copying it.
For all these reasons I thought you were trolling Izual. I just couldn't believe a sane person could come up with a suggestion this bad. Looks like I was mistaken. I'm starting to loose my faith at the times like these - if not for mankind, than certainly for this forum.
tl, dr; version:
This suggestion is shit and it belongs in the garbage bin.
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Maybe something like "limited time of running"? Stamina you know? So woth a big gun one could run for only 10 hexes for example, the he would get a timeout (dunno, 20 seconds?) this timeout would force him to walk, and then he could run again...
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Maybe something like "limited time of running"? Stamina you know? So woth a big gun one could run for only 10 hexes for example, the he would get a timeout (dunno, 20 seconds?) this timeout would force him to walk, and then he could run again...
And why would you want to make combat slower considering the fact that it being fast is the main reason people preffer it to TLA? But ok, implement that based on inventory encumberance. I'd love seeing the faces of all those silly snipers and EW dudes supporting this once they realise the edge in stamina they have from that is 5-10% at best.
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Ah, at least you provide some arguments. That's what I wanted to read.
The ability to run up and get into range. You can't do any of that? You're basically worthless.
Only if you think every battle in FOnline is blitzkrieg-based. Town Control, for example, is not about getting in range, it is about defending your area. Well, put snipers there and big guns, if someone comes too close of the snipers, big guns will zap him, as you said ; not mentioning that inside buildings the fact that they can't run is not at all a penalty.
Playing a BG is not about having raw firepower, because honestly you're inferior to mostly anything at long range and stuff gets equal on midrange.
Well, that's false. Yeah, I agree, you're inferior at long range (but honestly if you weren't what would be the use of snipers ?), but I have to disagree. At midrange you destroy everything. Who would beat you in 1vs1 in range ? P90 burst ? Jackhammer ? Laser rifle ? Plasma, okay, but plasma is a very good weapon so that's quite normal. I don't talk about snipers here, since you can burst them easily when they're at middle range (and imo Sniper Rifle should have scoped perk, but it's another discussion).
The emphasis is on the word "quickly".
Yes, but not in "move quickly", rather in "burst quickly", when it comes to big guns. Once again, this suggestion increases the potential of teams made of SG/EW and Big Guns, because everyone will have a different role, and that's where it becomes interesting. I've never seen something more ridiculous than a big guns charge. You say "flanking", and honestly flanking looks great, but in FOnline it's mostly about running and shooting. Now, with this suggestion implemented, you'd have to think twice and to move to make sure your enemy steps in range of the big guns. It can be flanking the enemy to force him to retreat on your big guns, or it can be moving your big guns near the enemy while you contain him, etc.
Disabling running would mean BG would be effective at blocking doorways only. I don't think anyone would be happy with playing a somewhat sophisticated landmine.
Not really, they would be tremendous in anything related to support.
2. The misguided notion that BG are overpowered.
Read my first post, I'm fine with BG and I don't want them to be nerfed. I want them to be different.
How about going to see TC today? You'd be surprised seeing how popular EW have recently got. But, as usual, it's just a matter of fashion and minor fine-tuning. This game is evolving, the builds are evolving - that's why you see change in popularity. The point being no class is superior to other classes, it's just that a member of this class thought up something friggin' good in the recent times and people have started copying it.
Quite agreeing, even if I don't see how it is related to this thread ?
For all these reasons I thought you were trolling Izual. I just couldn't believe a sane person could come up with a suggestion this bad.
I'm for improving tactics in this game, obviously you're not, doesn't make you and I insane persons.
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- Omfgwtf, leave big guns alone noo-
Well, big guns deal great damage, have great range, are very effective (look at the BG users around), and well, in one word, they are deadly. Not being able to run only means they will need to use team tactics, not that their damage/range/etc is nerfed.
This idea is so shitty that it's embarassing to even explain you why.
1. Big guns aren't overpowered at the moment, are you (Izual) playing on a different server than we're playing? I remember you talking about big guns too powerful since ... September?
2. Your idea would make a great imbalance to PvP right now, as PvP is right now pretty much balanced. As we see all types of weapons (except melee and unarmed) on the battlefield, being used effectively under specific circumstances, I don't know what is your point.
3. I feel bad when I come across suggestions affecting mainly PvP from people who don't fight other players in battles - at all.
4. In fact, I don't think PvP was balanced better in the past than it is now. Seriously, we need to think more about changes in drugs mechanics, not in SG/BG/EW.
5. Before you start any boring speeches about "my precious BG char", I'll let you know that I have a smallgunner, a biggunner and energy sniper. Oh and sneaking grenadier too. [/list]
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I must say that its a terrible idea. Big guns arent that powerfull, that we have to give them another disadvantage. High cost of ammo is enough imo.
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Seriously, we need to think more about changes in drugs mechanics, not in SG/BG/EW.
And perks (to encourage even more build types, whilst preserving the reasonable balance we have now)
Non running BGers would simply kill the class for 99% of situations, won't happen.
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For the moment, Energy Weapons and Snipers are overpowered because almost everyone use aimbots. So the advantage of "shot fast" for big gunners is not an advantage anymore.
Izual I think we should talk about your idea when aimbots will not be a problem anymore.
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I had a quite a break from Fonline recently but I am back for two weeks now and attended some TC action and seen this:
Does 90% of people run with bigguns?
No, they dont. In TC it varies from 40% to 60%, but I ve seen actions where there were no minigun bigguners at all. With this implemented, I hardly imagine 10% percent of users.
As a solo PK or PK hunter, minigun is a nice choice, but its also, as Nice Boat said, quite expensive.
2. The misguided notion that BG are overpowered.
+1. Dont fix something that aint broken, the PvP is now best balanced as far as I remember.
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that would actually make some sense Nice_Boat...
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Izual, play some pvp before you start making such stupid ideas, you search the problem where it isn't any, unless you want players to stop using big guns at all.
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Only if you think every battle in FOnline is blitzkrieg-based. Town Control, for example, is not about getting in range, it is about defending your area. Well, put snipers there and big guns, if someone comes too close of the snipers, big guns will zap him, as you said ; not mentioning that inside buildings the fact that they can't run is not at all a penalty.
Not a penalty? Not blitzkrieg-based? Defence not requiring maneuver? Using your squad's weapons in succession, not all at once? Not defining killzones, exfiltration routes, backup positions and having no reinforcements?
(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3306/whatthefuckamireadingk.png)
First of all, every well played battle in FOnline IS blitzkrieg-based. That's because of the fact that every FOnline battle is played by human beings and every human being reacts more or less the same to the shock of a well-planned and rapid assault. Ever noticed how in all decisive engagements (ie. one side CLEARLY winning the day) the losing side always scatters and drags on while the winning side moves in quick, decisive bursts? Ever noticed how the mop up is somewhat lazy and takes as much time as the fighting itself? That's the principles you don't realise even exist at play.
And TC not about getting in range? What about the principle of utilising cover until you're ready to strike with all weapons at your disposal? What about the principle of striking from the best possible angle, which sometimes requires rapid feinting? What about creating killzones and ambushes, which require feinting too? Do you even realise how useless in each basic maneuver a character that can't run would be?
Well, that's false. Yeah, I agree, you're inferior at long range (but honestly if you weren't what would be the use of snipers ?), but I have to disagree. At midrange you destroy everything. Who would beat you in 1vs1 in range ? P90 burst ? Jackhammer ? Laser rifle ? Plasma, okay, but plasma is a very good weapon so that's quite normal. I don't talk about snipers here, since you can burst them easily when they're at middle range (and imo Sniper Rifle should have scoped perk, but it's another discussion).
First of all, knockdown. Second of all, all weapons used for PvP are well capable of killing a TC equipped powerbuild in a full-AP strike. It's all about who pulls the trigger first, and the best edge BG get at midrange is having to click once instead of twice. The only thing they really excell at is CQB, because they can engage the next target more rapidly having to attack their target once or twice to take it out. At everything else they're either pretty much standard or inferior.
Yes, but not in "move quickly", rather in "burst quickly", when it comes to big guns. Once again, this suggestion increases the potential of teams made of SG/EW and Big Guns, because everyone will have a different role, and that's where it becomes interesting. I've never seen something more ridiculous than a big guns charge. You say "flanking", and honestly flanking looks great, but in FOnline it's mostly about running and shooting. Now, with this suggestion implemented, you'd have to think twice and to move to make sure your enemy steps in range of the big guns. It can be flanking the enemy to force him to retreat on your big guns, or it can be moving your big guns near the enemy while you contain him, etc.
Bad players run, shoot and die. Good players flank, coordinate and prevail. Besides, you have no understanding of the fact that due to their stats, BG are good ASSAULT weapons. Assault element needs to be extremely mobile. Base of fire element needs to have range, which BG lack. So, given the weapon stats, it really should be BG forcing the enemy from behind cover into the sniper FOV, not the other way around.
Not really, they would be tremendous in anything related to support.
A BG lacks range to be a good support weapon. It lacks raw damage to be a good support weapon. As mentioned above, it is a good assault weapon though. Basically, BG in FOnline is what a submachinegun was in world war 2. Changing that would require a general overhaul of the stats of ALL weapons in the game - somehow I don't think that'd ever happen. So best leave stuff like this alone.
Read my first post, I'm fine with BG and I don't want them to be nerfed. I want them to be different.
Disabling the ability to run is the greatest nerf any weapon could ever suffer.
Quite agreeing, even if I don't see how it is related to this thread ?
If you are doubtful about this idea, just look at the town control videos in my youtube account, it is quite enlightening.
What the hell, man.
I'm for improving tactics in this game, obviously you're not, doesn't make you and I insane persons.
It would help if you actually learned something about tactics before trying to improve them, no?
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Along with speed nerf (and I'm not saying about "walk" version but about -n% run speed for everything you hold in hands like I wrote) big guns damage could be improved. The best sniper rifles could be made heavier too and SMGs and pistols are the lightest weapons. Nobody uses SMGs in battles but you don't seem to be concerned. It would make unarmed better too. Bonus move perks could for example give +5% run speed in real time.
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Okay, so along with what everyone said (arguments that made sense, not OMG STOP SAYING THEY ARE OVERPOWERED, read my posts again, I'm saying the opposite), I think I can close this suggestions =)
ClosedLocked.