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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: NTR on June 21, 2010, 01:16:54 am

Title: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: NTR on June 21, 2010, 01:16:54 am
Hi, I would like to introduce my crafting ideas to you.

First of all, its a lot of changes, but almost all mechanics I used are already done.
Please read the whole post before answering.

So:

Crafting and gathering timeouts are unnecessary. We can't just forbid people to
dig, craft or whatever more than few times at once. It generates alts made for digging,
alts made for crafting, and end with 35000 chars registered on server. 
PvP now is only about town control. Lets add some more possibilities.

My ideas are:

1. Removing crafting and gathering timeouts

2. Removing the easy possibility of crafting 3rd lvl equipment.

3. Adding additional requirments for crafting 2nd lvl equimpent

   - same as it is with crafting 7,62mm ammo, or buffout now. 

4. For crafting 3rd lvl equipment, there would be something like factories,
located in many locations in the desert. Some would be controlled by main NPC factions,
some would be free. Many locations are already done.

5. In those factories, you could buy the stuff they are making, and use the tools required
for crafting 2nd lvl equipment for a small fee (or not, it depends).
Some factories would be guarded, some not, it could
change - look next point.

6. There would be a possibility of taking control over the factory, by killing all the guards,
and talking to main npc, like it's with TC now. Taking over would be possible once in 5 normal
days, for 4 hours like 20-24. If attacking faction manages to take control - possibility
of taking it by another faction is blocked for 5 days. Its all to let normal players enter
the factory without 80% possibility of being killed, like it is in north towns now,
and to let factions really take control over something, preventing band of bluesuits going from
town to town at 3AM and taking control over whole wasteland.




7. Why factions would fight for that factories? Here it starts:
- there would be 4 kinds of factories - for guns, armors, ammo and explosives, and drugs,
  and you could choose what exactly they have to craft.
- factories would be producing some amount of 3rd lvl equipment daily,
for example 2 Avengers per hour.
- all equipment and cash would go to controlling faction
- factions could choose if they keep the equipment for themselves, or they send it to NPC
in factory which would be selling it to normal players. This should be balanced
to the level when factions dont need all the equipment they produce, otherwise players
couldn't buy anything from NPC's there.


BUT:

- faction would have to provide huge amounts of basic sources for the factory,
  and it should be a really big numbers, so using caravans would be only option.
- they would have to pay to all npcs working in the factory (once, after they take control)
- they would have to pay for guards, otherwise npcs would run away in fear of PK's :P
- guards should be really strong, like safe town guards, and not too expensive.

8. To prevent gangs from making 40 people alliances and overswarming everything,
maps of factories should be of different sizes - small/medium/big
and balanced in a way that doesnt give advantage to more numberous factions.
It could be done by making maps where only strict number of attackers could hide
behind walls etc. others would be just slashed down because there wouldn't be a place left
to hide from fire. It's the point which needs most work and balancing, and currently I dont have
any simple idea how to solve it.
Another thing is that people may prefer to keep all equipment for them instead of sharing it
with another 4 gangs, so they wouldn't make alliances. It also needs testing on closed server.


9. Now about big NPC factions controlling the factories.
There would also be a possibility to take control over them by players faction,
but they should be ready for NPC's counter attack. Even real players could do that,
it's a nice thing to do for Izual's NCR army, which is quite dead for now, cause they dont have anything to do.
Counter attack could happen anytime, without this 5 days counter, but controlling
would get the info for example half an hour before attack.
Some radio message like "...3 humvees heading towards NCR factory..."
Chances of NPC faction winning should be balanced to something like 70:30 for them. 
 

10. That point is for born crafters who don't want to fight, and still want to make best equipment:

There would be a possibility of making a small manufacture, which would be similiar to a base,
or could even be a base extension.
Manufactures would produce equipment few times slower that factories,
and to prevent players from making hundreds of these
it would be necessary to make a lot of time consuming quests (searching for
tools, machines, npc's which would work there, location) and a lot of money,
for example 500k spend on location, machines, tools and npcs.
It's all about balancing controlled factories, and manufactures,
so players interested in PvP would prefer to fight for factories, instead of making manufactures.

 

Summary:

We put almost all control over crafting of high tech equipment in hands of gangs.

But!:

Pros:
- Digging alts are removed from game
- I think same will happen with PvPers having 4-5 crafting alts - crafting would not be so
necessary for them
- Caravans are finally useful for something
- You can still craft every high tech equipment, but it would need much time to start doing it
- There will be much more player-player barter
- New possibilities of PvP, but without making these locations used only by PvPers
- We encourage players to interact with others, now it is not needed
when one player can craft everything (you need few hours to make crafting alts for everything)

Cons:
-A lot of work, but mechanics are already in game, its all about making some new maps, adding npcs, quests, dialagoues and scripting
- are there any more?
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Dylan Fraser on June 21, 2010, 07:22:23 am
I didn't bother reading past your explanation of why timers are unnecessary.  You DO know that to log onto a different account, you have to wait ten minutes, correct?  To go onto another account takes ten minutes, then to return to your old one takes another ten.  That's twenty minutes in total... But wait a minute...  That's the maximum for the gather timer!
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Michaelh139 on June 21, 2010, 07:56:27 am
Quote from: Dylan Fraser on June 21, 2010, 07:22:23 am
I didn't bother reading past your explanation of why timers are unnecessary.  You DO know that to log onto a different account, you have to wait ten minutes, correct?  To go onto another account takes ten minutes, then to return to your old one takes another ten.  That's twenty minutes in total... But wait a minute...  That's the maximum for the gather timer!
3 minutes.  idk what is up with the 10 minute thing....
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: GroeneAppel on June 21, 2010, 08:52:45 am
Quote from: Dylan Fraser on June 21, 2010, 07:22:23 am
I didn't bother reading past your explanation of why timers are unnecessary.  You DO know that to log onto a different account, you have to wait ten minutes, correct?  To go onto another account takes ten minutes, then to return to your old one takes another ten.  That's twenty minutes in total... But wait a minute...  That's the maximum for the gather timer!

Yeah it encourages alts really.
Character A gets 20 min CD
logs to character B in 10 minutes.
Character B gets his 20 min CD and logs back to character A
Character A now has no more CD. and can get 20 min CD again

Process repeats.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: NTR on June 21, 2010, 09:26:28 am
It's rather like you make 5 alts for digging with 1st lvl, which you are not afraid to loose because of ban, and you use fast relog.
We have 35000 chars on the server with 1000 people playing. That's mainly because of cooldowns.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Izual on June 21, 2010, 12:16:21 pm
Quote from: NTR on June 21, 2010, 09:26:28 am
It's rather like you make 5 alts for digging with 1st lvl, which you are not afraid to loose because of ban, and you use fast relog.

Har har, worse idea ever.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Solar on June 21, 2010, 12:51:54 pm
I've been thinking about these factory type things to create PvP places and limit how much high end stuff gets on the game. Not taking control, just open places like the mines, perhaps with a limit on them per hour. With an alternate system to earn use of factions facilities for the non PvPers to use.

Don't think it should be a reason to remove timeouts, these are already generous enough. If people are cheating around the limits then they just need to be banned, like plenty of other people have been already.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Imprezobus on June 21, 2010, 01:47:59 pm
Dylan, I raccomand you to first: get knowledge of game mechanics before you complain second: read before you say its shit

it is exactly 3 minutes, which (with using 5 chars) removes cooldown from game, without breaking any rules!
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: gordulan on June 21, 2010, 01:49:02 pm
yep, i can confirm this.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: VongJin on June 21, 2010, 02:09:24 pm
cheers! lets remove Gathering and crafting cooldowns!!! Lets step into scripts and autoclickers era!
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Flick on June 21, 2010, 02:32:44 pm
Now is possible for a loner miner or a small gang crafting high tier equipement, with factory I fear that powerful gang will have the good equipement, and loner and small gang become more weak... I don't see the need for this change.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Crazy on June 21, 2010, 03:11:35 pm
Quote from: Flick on June 21, 2010, 02:32:44 pm
Now is possible for a loner miner or a small gang crafting high tier equipement, with factory I fear that powerful gang will have the good equipement, and loner and small gang become more weak... I don't see the need for this change.

Well seem logical only biggest and better organized group have better stuff, but it would be better if factory allow to create uber high tier equipement (gauss/pulse/vindic/bozar/G11/PA) very very slowly and with big fight around, like that small factions would still have high enough equipement and big factions a new reason to PvP.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Wichura on June 21, 2010, 04:20:28 pm
Quote from: Flick on June 21, 2010, 02:32:44 pm
Now is possible for a loner miner or a small gang crafting high tier equipement, with factory I fear that powerful gang will have the good equipement, and loner and small gang become more weak... I don't see the need for this change.
You didn't read carefully I'm afraid - as a loner/small faction you could also make hi-tech equipment by buying yourself a small factory, if you don't want to buying items from factories or players. And as long as I'm not interested in PvP, this seems like a perfect solution for people like me - patient "settlers-kind" players, who can wait with low-tech toys, save enough caps and here you go. What I miss in bunker base now is a medical or ammo terminal. I mean you pay 500k caps for shitload of lockers, your own basic resources mine, e-parts and this is amazing, but still there could be some other advantage for 500k.
Also a loner or small faction doesn't need as many equipment as larger ones, unless you are greedy :>
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: gordulan on June 21, 2010, 04:30:08 pm
hey, dontcha start insulting greed, it's what makes the world go round.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Jeoshua on June 21, 2010, 05:55:43 pm
Too Long, Didn't Read.  Don't mean to be flippant, but that's quite a healthy block of text there about a subject that's been talked, quite literally, to death AND BACK.

But there doesn't need to be any real solution to people having alts.  There just needs to be more options for non-PvP play (quests, single-player, cooperative, roleplay, etc etc).  Then incessant crafting and PvP gameplay won't be so... incessant.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: gordulan on June 21, 2010, 06:14:56 pm
waht about trophies, everyone wants awards and trophy collectibles, that's practically why I buy games in the first place.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Izual on June 21, 2010, 06:15:50 pm
There's already a topic about trophies. Please don't get this one out of the tracks.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: gordulan on June 21, 2010, 06:16:08 pm
sorry, my bad...
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: NTR on June 21, 2010, 06:16:29 pm
Quote from: VongJin on June 21, 2010, 02:09:24 pm
cheers! lets remove Gathering and crafting cooldowns!!! Lets step into scripts and autoclickers era!
Think! Where is the sense of using autoclicker when you have carry limit, and you have to dig in non guarded places?

For the posts starting "I didn't read all" - please don't post then, I asked for that in third line.

For other people writing that high tech equipment will be available only for gangs:
First - gangs have to fight each other if they want the best equipment.
Second - you wont need much members to fight for small factories, it will be balanced so you have same chance to win as a big gang
Third - if you are a really peaceful gang and don't want to fight there's an option to have a private manufacture crafting high tech equipment.

I have a sad feeling that it's too much text for english forum and almost noone reads all.

For Solar:
Timeouts should be natural, it's almost like that with crafting buffout now - timeout for meat is almost not needed, because all things you need to do to craft buffout take almost 20 minutes, if you have low carry level.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Jeoshua on June 21, 2010, 06:23:32 pm
Why should Joe Schmoe on the street be able to get enough resources together to craft a sniper rifle and combat armor, just because he wants them? This is the wasteland, pardner.  The Brotherhood of Steel makes a LIVING off keeping high tech equipment away from people.

And you don't need lots of members in your gang to fight for resources.  You just need a few quick people to get what you can and get out quickly.  You might die, but that's the risk you take.  Nobody said living in a post apocalyptic world was easy, did they?

PS. VongJin was being sarcstic.  Your dislike of English and contempt for those who speak it kind of shows in your comment at the bottom of your posting and I'm trying hard not to be offended.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: NTR on June 21, 2010, 06:29:24 pm
Quote from: Jeoshua on June 21, 2010, 06:23:32 pm
Why should Joe Schmoe on the street be able to get enough resources together to craft a sniper rifle and combat armor, just because he wants them? This is the wasteland, pardner. 
Because it's wasteland, not a communist country, where you can get limited amount of resources. If I want to dig all day, I should be able to do this.
Other thing, that now you can craft BA in your workbench, which is quite funny, and thats the problem, not resources you can get.

Quote from: Jeoshua on June 21, 2010, 06:23:32 pm
PS. VongJin was being sarcstic.  Your dislike of English and contempt for those who speak it kind of shows in your comment at the bottom of your posting and I'm trying hard not to be offended.
I am sarcastic too.

Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Jeoshua on June 21, 2010, 06:36:47 pm
Actually... it is a Post Apocalyptic Wasteland.  I don't know how well that translates, but I'd say that that does, indeed, strongly imply in at least 2 ways that resources are scarce.  And no, it's not communist... which means people ain't giving up what they have to you for free, for the greater good... or maybe at all... or maybe they just want your stuff so they shoot you before you have a chance to craft anything good.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Alvarez on June 21, 2010, 07:07:53 pm
It seems someone already interested Solar in the unguarded factories.
Thanks a lot.

At least, make those facilities produce more stuff with slightly less mats, than the amounts by crafting by the same cooldown.
For example: your faction secures the facility, you bring in the brahmin loaded with gunpowder and metal parts.

You feed the mats in the machine to produce 500x5mm JHP rounds. Normally, you would need 30 gunpowders and 10 metal part to produce this amount, but the machine uses the mats more efficient, so it needs only 75% of the mats, so rounded down 22 gunpowders and 7 metal parts. That would also be saved 20minutes mining.

Also, since the work is done by the machine, ammo production doesn't affect your crafting, but perhaps repairing cooldown.
To craft efficiently, you need a operator at the facility and a repairman at the generator, excluding guards.
So it will require a team.
Also: it's an unguarded location, like Sierra or Mariposa, so expect visit, who can either leave or take loot.

So the assaulter will have either your mats or your mass-produced ammo, so there would be even more PvP action than in unguarded mines.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Flick on June 21, 2010, 08:12:53 pm
Uhm factory are good to mass production, not for high quality

If you want a very good sniper rifle, the better is one custom made for you (more expensive but better), this is true for clothing, rifle, musical instruments ...
And number don't give you better equipement, to contrary, better equipement go to elite force, few but chosen...

Factory is good for mass production, ammo, crafting 1000 hunting rifle at the cost of 600 hand made in much less time.

Only my two cent
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: NTR on June 21, 2010, 08:38:40 pm
Quote from: Flick on June 21, 2010, 08:12:53 pm
Uhm factory are good to mass production, not for high quality

If you want a very good sniper rifle, the better is one custom made for you (more expensive but better), this is true for clothing, rifle, musical instruments ...
And number don't give you better equipement, to contrary, better equipement go to elite force, few but chosen...

Factory is good for mass production, ammo, crafting 1000 hunting rifle at the cost of 600 hand made in much less time.

Only my two cent
I rather meant "places where those high tech guns are crafted", it doesnt mean that they are huge factories producing zilions of stuff. 
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: kraskish on June 21, 2010, 09:52:41 pm
I like the idea, except for the timeouts and your idea of disappearance of digging alts. If a faction would have a factory that requires high amount of resources alts will still be there... :o timeouts are good as they are
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: NTR on June 21, 2010, 10:37:03 pm
Quote from: kraskish on June 21, 2010, 09:52:41 pm
I like the idea, except for the timeouts and your idea of disappearance of digging alts. If a faction would have a factory that requires high amount of resources alts will still be there... :o timeouts are good as they are
Removing timeouts is a must, what alts will be needed for when when they won't speed up process of digging?
For example - for an hour you will be able to dig 1000 minerals if you dig constantly - all of those minerals and more will be needed to support the factory.
What are alts for now?
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: gordulan on June 21, 2010, 10:42:26 pm
to get a fuckload of materials and heave other alts convert them into hard goods, although paying noobs to fetch the materials is far less time consuming.
And besides, from my experience a guy who is accomplished at the game has way too many alts, Prepare for the list of those i can think of:
That's all I can think of now. Shit, this forum needs to get a spoiler option, kinda not want to have these massive long posts because of a list...
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Dylan Fraser on June 22, 2010, 12:24:13 am
Quote from: Imprezobus on June 21, 2010, 01:47:59 pm
Dylan, I raccomand you to first: get knowledge of game mechanics before you complain second: read before you say its shit

it is exactly 3 minutes, which (with using 5 chars) removes cooldown from game, without breaking any rules!

It seems for some people the times differ.  I know many people who have to wait ten minutes, including myself.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Imprezobus on June 22, 2010, 08:44:58 am
you just dunno how to do it :P

to those, who will just come in here to say "too long, did not read"

topic is completly different, ideas are new, so shut up and go fuck yourself somewhere else, ya'r unwanted in here
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Michaelh139 on June 23, 2010, 03:16:43 am
This would give a good reason for caravans.


A big faction needs more parts and gunpowder or etc... to repair maintain and produce at their factory so they would have to start a trade with some caravan players to hoard up the stuff and sell it to them in Shitloads.
Title: Re: Crafting, solution for digging and gathering alts and new PvP posibilities
Post by: Alvarez on June 23, 2010, 09:02:51 am
Quote from: Michaelh139 on June 23, 2010, 03:16:43 am
This would give a good reason for caravans.


A big faction needs more parts and gunpowder or etc... to repair maintain and produce at their factory so they would have to start a trade with some caravan players to hoard up the stuff and sell it to them in Shitloads.

Shitloads of ammo, i'd say.
Otherwise everything else would be spammed with cheap Assault Rifles. Ammo at least can be stacked and spent freely on PvP.