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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Midnight on May 18, 2010, 05:40:21 am
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Following the thread on discution about someone wanting to play SMG i made a little excel file to have damages done by some SG as clear as possible.
The issue is i come to stupid results and i wanted to now where was the trick. Am i wrong in my formulas somewhere. I go to the point where many SG are useless, but even ammos are useless, like 10mm AP and 5mm AP.
I tryed P90c and 10mm SMG with both type ammos and JHP type give better damages on all kind of armor. It's the same with Assault rifle/XL70E3 with 5mm JHP.
I did
(weapon damages * ammo mod - DTarmor)* min(1;1-(DRarmor+DRammo)/100)
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i agree that some SG are useless, but only in PVP. XL is a cheap and quite accurate weapon that allows your to snipe ghouls and other pray, and p90c happens to be the best small guns burst weapon that is actually quite good in PK. Small gunners should be happy- just look down at energy weapon users :D
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Try using 10mm ap vs enclave and then use 10mm jhp. You will notice a huge difference.
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ok it has been moved, but i don't wanted to make suggestion before being sure of the formula, no mater.
Try using 10mm ap vs enclave and then use 10mm jhp. You will notice a huge difference.
Sorry GroeneAppel but it's untrue, if the formula is right, 10mm JHP are stronger than 10mm AP no matter what you try, and it's the same for 5mm, because of ammo modifier and ammor DT that exactly compensate the DR granted. And what dommage amount do you expect a weapon with 12-16 dommages will do against an armor with 15 DT? Whithout any doubt i can awnser you, so HPA and APA are off topic.
I was trying to see if my suggestions given in this thread http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4552.0 were balanced, and some of things that comes out are quite annoying.
Assault rifle with best ammo is weaker than Grease gun, and 10mm SMG, i must say ewww ...
Actually even what i proposed in the other thread is not enought to make most of weapons sligtly interresting only P90c remain interresting, and FN Fal HFPA ...
Have a look here :
(http://test.legends-of-olympia.net/Divers/fonlinesg.PNG)
Drakonis please don't start trolling, you want to balance EW go ahead and do it on another thread, i was thinking to had the same thing for all weapon once i had confirm of my formula, but see how you start trolling this thread, i will not.
If the formula is wrong i ll have to change it a bit but since nobody told me i was wrong i suppose it's right.
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ok it has been moved, but i don't wanted to make suggestion before being sure of the formula, no mater.
Sorry GroeneAppel but it's untrue, if the formula is right, 10mm JHP are stronger than 10mm AP no matter what you try, and it's the same for 5mm, because of ammo modifier and ammor DT that exactly compensate the DR granted. And what dommage amount do you expect a weapon with 12-16 dommages will do against an armor with 15 DT? Whithout any doubt i can awnser you, so HPA and APA are off topic.
I was trying to see if my suggestions given in this thread http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4552.0 were balanced, and some of things that comes out are quite annoying.
Assault rifle with best ammo is weaker than Grease gun, and 10mm SMG, i must say ewww ...
Actually even what i proposed in the other thread is not enought to make most of weapons sligtly interresting only P90c remain interresting, and FN Fal HFPA ...
Have a look here :
(http://test.legends-of-olympia.net/Divers/fonlinesg.PNG)
Drakonis please don't start trolling, you want to balance EW go ahead and do it on another thread, i was thinking to had the same thing for all weapon once i had confirm of my formula, but see how you start trolling this thread, i will not.
If the formula is wrong i ll have to change it a bit but since nobody told me i was wrong i suppose it's right.
how am I trolling? AP ammo is usefull, try to hit a guy on psycho with JHP. oh and btw: energy gunners have 4 guns, laser pistol(crap), plasma pistol(expensive short range), laser rifle(crap in PVP), plasma rifle(very expensive short range).
I mean do some tests guys. tests in game. JHP can really suck balls when VS armored guy with big DR. And I dont want to balance just EW, I wish all weapons would get pretty much balanced. In-category disbalances should be a secondary thing.
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I have not the stas for psycho and i'd be happy to had them and stop with your EW, you already trolled the FN Fal HFPA topic now stop.
And i'm pretty sure AP ammos are no more use against armor+psycho simply look that, how do you expect from weapon that do 5 dommages against middle armor, doing more than 5 dommages with a DR superior, you have some bugs in your mathematical brain functions. On a weapon doing 20-20 dommages which doen't exist in SG 1 DT = 5%DR and the parity between DR/DT is generally 5%/2 so stop saying dumb thing i first want to know if the formula is good, what i think and then base somoe reflection upon this, no wind talking (based on nothing) aka troll.
Now i want base stats in order to go further, sorry but i never take a problem by the end, i know it could be annoying for some ...
Hell ... So hard to think a bit or be constructive in a post pfff.
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dommages is damage right?
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yeah damages, i wrote it in french sorry :/
If this is going somewhere i could make a real simu more accurate but i don't want to compare things with dumb, that's why i post here before having all tools in hand.
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yeah damages, i wrote it in french sorry :/
its okay man. that's what i thought you meant. wasn't sure..
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I have not the stas for psycho and i'd be happy to had them and stop with your EW, you already trolled the FN Fal HFPA topic now stop.
And i'm pretty sure AP ammos are no more use against armor+psycho simply look that, how do you expect from weapon that do 5 dommages against middle armor, doing more than 5 dommages with a DR superior, you have some bugs in your mathematical brain functions. On a weapon doing 20-20 dommages which doen't exist in SG 1 DT = 5%DR and the parity between DR/DT is generally 5%/2 so stop saying dumb thing i first want to know if the formula is good, what i think and then base somoe reflection upon this, no wind talking (based on nothing) aka troll.
Now i want base stats in order to go further, sorry but i never take a problem by the end, i know it could be annoying for some ...
Hell ... So hard to think a bit or be constructive in a post pfff.
just whatever, man. just get online and try hurting a guy with combat armor on psycho with JHP 5mm and goodluck
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Since i will ignore trolls, i ve made a small simulator http://test.legends-of-olympia.net/Divers/FOnlinew.php
It's still WIP but it could be usefull to see something.
Since no one said my formula was wrong, i did with it.
I have rounded all damages since i don't really know how it is used, but that should not make big difference. I ignore critts since they are too many parameters.
I made penetrate dividing DT by 5 for needler, don't know if it's really that.
For psycho and some armors stats i used those from the wiki since i can't verify all ingame.
Ammos should have correct stats anyway.
The issue on assault riffe getting better stats with JHP than with AP seems to persist, if this is not true, someone tell me where is the mistake cause i have verified a couple of times and all seem ok.
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I have make the tool compatible with IE.
I ve check the formula once again and there is only one way all is wrong it's about DR cap. I ve read that you can't have more than 90% DR against something but this max is for everything or only for armor+psycho+perk.
If it's the first case, it's normal to have JHP making more damages than AP cause they reach really easily the max cap with DR, en DT is useless against their high damage boost, exemple with 5mm JHP which have x2 dam and +35%DR, against a CA it's almost caped (40+35=75%) meaning that if the opponent take a psycho it wont do much difference.
If this is not the case, what i doubt, that mean that you can go to 90% and then finess or ammo DR could send you over 100% meaning you should do 0 each time you attack such target. Easy enough, someone with a combat leather jacket and a psycho should take 0 damage from a magnum revolver JHP (no critical) no matter the number of tries. But if this is the case, it's useless to go over 90% resistance and take 2 psychos.
Last psychos and the perk thoughness work only on normal damages, right? Juste want to be dure.
Anyway except from really high armor values (at least one psycho used) the sim seems to give good results. (except for laser weapon still in progress)
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I didnt read it all. but ill still respond.
Nothing I said is untrue, instead of calculating things. actually try them. also, using 5mm jhp vs somoene in BA + toughness is completely usseles. Instead of calculating things, try them out.
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Even on a metal armor JHP suck hard. Believe me, if your ennemy have better than a leather jacket, take AP ammo.
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Yeah sure the game don't calculate anything he try too and do random things. Stop saying shit.
Draconis multi account?
How can you possibly do a simulator or even speak of balance weapon without being able to calculate values? Seriously, stop being stupid ...
You speak of CA with thoughness i'll make it simple. Take the 19max dam of XL70 which will be the more interresting to valuate your point of view.
With JHP you have Dmod x2 for 38 dam.
With AP you have Dmod x2/3 for 12.6 dam.
Now without even taking Dr in account, only take the DT or what you said, Thoughtness and CA, 5+2.
With JHP you do 31
With AP you do 5.6
Now that you are so strong, simply explain me how much DR difference you should have for the 2 ammos to cross, knowing the difference is 70% between the 2 types.
You tell me to try? Yeah did you try? AP 5mm are no more 3/4 but 2/3 now. Moreover there are many things going into count in game like critticals, and burst mechanism to make deduction of base damages with simply that.
If you look at deagle ammos, difference between JHP and FMJ give true results, conform to what i have tested.
So if you want to help or discuss seriously good, if you want to troll, go elsewhere. I wonder if it's not a kind of whining cause you fear there will be nerf of your favorite build if we go through this ...
Oh and please don't compare 2 differents guns with 2 differents ammos ...
Edit: Oh and before saying try blabla J.E. Sawyer make the exact same conclusion than me on the DT feature of all fallout serie, sure i don't know of what i speak ... And i really wonder why there is damage ammo fix on all patched version of fallout (even on 2238 cause it's 1/2 dam mod for AP in Fo2)
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I'm not sure about your formula Midnight, but what Drakonis said about results is true. You want to hurt an armored target with a Minigun, you hose him with AP, end of story. JHP is going to work too against stuff like Metal Armor mk2 without psycho, but in the end you're going to have AP being slightly more effective on this level and really making the difference against better protection. Since I don't think there's some voodoo magic going on it must be the fact that something's wrong about the formula or you're not taking something into account. I mean I've shot PLENTY of people with .223, 5mm JHP and 5mm AP with a top tier big gun (LSW, Avenger) and I will easily choose AP loaded Avenger for PvP any day of the week - it simply works against lightly armored targets and works best out of the three against guys in Metal and better.
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Yeah but that's what i asked in my first post, helping me to fix if it's not correct and all i get is guys who come troll "it's shit" seriously i don't care what they say i try to get this to work, nothing more.
I don't know where is the heck but only taking in account the DT feature make the avenger minigun useless against a BA with Thoughness (11*2/3 -10 =0) execpt for critticals, as you see DR don't even come in account and that's what i'm trying to figure all you guys say AP are better in high end where all point that AP are better midle game+psycho (maybe it's comon in PVP to have tesla+2 psycho) but on BA armor 5mm AP basically can't get good results, or DT is reduced by AP ammo but i see nothing about that anywhere and i haven't read too that you have perks on ammos (o_o).
If someone have anything that could make go ahead that would be good, but not simply say "this is crap boooo", anyway thanks for being constructive Nice_Boat.
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AP ammo has penetrate perk, it divide DT by 5, rounded down.
And that's why JHP suck and AP is awesome.
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Ow you sure about that? Yeah if this is the case it could be the awnser of the damn thing.
I'll try it to see what all this change. FMJ are not affected i guess? So it would make 10mm, AP 5mm AP, 14mm AP and Needles with the penetrate finally?
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AP needles have this perk (if I remember well), but they are not IG anymore.
Ammo who have this perk:
10mm AP
5mm AP
14mm
AP rocket
Also, some weapons have this perk (.223 pistol, magneto laser...)
PS: On the french wiki we made a good recapiculative board of ammunitions, look at the bottom of the page: http://www.fallout-3.com/wiki/Munitions::2238 (http://www.fallout-3.com/wiki/Munitions::2238)
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Thanks it seem to work this way, AP do higher dam against heavy armor, good :)
I read somewhere that the magneto have a weird penetrate not really the same that ammo based weapon (something like -5DT -50%DR), that's why i didn't put it in the sim but yeah its surely a simple penetrate in 2238, i add it.
And thanks for the link.
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There are two item-based sources of DT penetration, the Piercing weapon perk (introduced in Fallouts, visible upon weapon examination in the inventory) or use of ammo with armor piercing property (2238-specific, visible upon inventory examination), their effects don't stack, and they are dividing target's DT by 5, rounded down.
About the DR cap: target's instrict DR (coming from armour, perks, drug effects and any other kind of bonus/malus calculated solely on target's own stats) is capped at 90%, but on damage calculation, the cap is 100% (JHP or Finesse can "help" in hitting the limit).
In a related note, "armor bypassed" critical effect provides another source of DT penetration too (does not stack with the other two, and does not work with EMP weapons - that is, just an EMP grenade), it divides target's DR by 5 as well, and ignores Finesse 30% DR bonus.
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So a guy with a Deagle or a Magnum armed with JHP and Finess can't do damages against a Leather Jacket? (50% + 30% + 20% = 100%)
i'll put this in the sim, it's becoming much more 2238 specific now.
Oh and finess is like toughness and psycho, only for normal damages right? On the Fo2 wiki they said it work on everything, but not sure about that here. (quite important with ongoing topics on laser weapons)
I saw too on a topic you were speaking of Bonus ranged damage being changed from upgrading dam base weapon to upgrading weapon dam after ammo mod, what is it now?
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So a guy with a Deagle or a Magnum armed with JHP and Finess can't do damages against a Leather Jacket? (50% + 30% + 20% = 100%)
i'll put this in the sim, it's becoming much more 2238 specific now.
Oh and finess is like toughness and psycho, only for normal damages right? On the Fo2 wiki they said it work on everything, but not sure about that here. (quite important with ongoing topics on laser weapons)
I saw too on a topic you were speaking of Bonus ranged damage being changed from upgrading dam base weapon to upgrading weapon dam after ammo mod, what is it now?
finesse = -30% damage. Not taken by adding 30% DR, so it cannot be skipped by using AP ammo.
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And afaik, DR is capped at 95% right?
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No, 90% for the player, and 100% for the damage calculation.... (Atom said it 3 post before, read.)
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I read on a post talking of psycho it's 90% and Atom is a dev, so maybe he's wrong but i ll believe him more than anyone else.
"About the DR cap: target's instrict DR is capped at 90%, but on damage calculation, the cap is 100% (JHP or Finesse can "help" in hitting the limit)." can't be more clear.
@Drakonis I ask about Finesse cause it's not the first time i see people saying it's a base damage reduction and others saying it's a bonus (malus) to DR in 2238, and Atom seem to give credit to this last one, that's why i ask to confirm. That change pretty everything, like said Atom, particularry on crits.
Right now i'll stick with what said Atom.
Edit: I went on falloutmod for confirmation, thanks Atom. For Drakonis it's here http://falloutmods.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout_engine_calculations
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So the sim is workin at least correctly on armors with DR<60% and that's enough to show that some weapons are clearly useless and like pointed somewhere else, assault riffle is the worst in the case. (since FN Fals will be revamped, i will not speak about them here). If we compare to 10mm SMG we can easily see where is the issue.
First with strenght, assault rifle have a 45 range, but the point with this is that if you play a burster, this won't help you much, if you play a sniper you prefere using a Hunting rifle, better to snipe and one tier lower (even the scoped version). So yeah it can be good to be half sniper half burster, but not sure it as any interrest in this, since snipers do load of damages with aimed shots, no need to burst.
On his weakness the base damages are really weaks for a 5APs rifle.
10mm SMG JHP avg 12.75 max burst 180 bypass 24 - AP avg 6.38 max burst 90
Assault rifle JHP avg 15.6 max burst 160 bypass 32 - AP avg 8 max burst 80
the 2 weapons do so few damages (against a simple leather MK2 JHP do same damages than AP on nothing) that you won't go for a single shot with those too since there are powerfull single shot weapons, and in burst the SMG is always better for 1 less AP to fire. Magazine are alike since you need to reload every 3 burst.
Now lets see how much damages a critter with BRF and 9AP can do in one round with each on a metal armor, since tier 2 should be ennemy of nothing uper than a metal MK2 (i won't oppose it to BA it would be a non sense)
10mmSMG AP 2burst and 1AP wasted -> 160 max dams
Assault rifle AP 1Burst 1 single -> 90 max dams
And 10mm SMG have even a greater advantages if you use fastshot too, the damage drop compared the 2 guns for a feature (long range) that cannot be really of any use is maybe a little too strong. Someone said put the accurate perk to AR, that could be a little strong, but yeah at least it would make something a bit different in the game, long range bursters, but i fear it become a second sniper style. (specially if XL70 have the same favor)
Or it's possible to raise damages simply to match better those of 10mm SMG, making AR fire 10 rounds in burst would do it, and the difference in AP to shot will still give a little bonus to 10mm SMG on close ranges.
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So a guy with a Deagle or a Magnum armed with JHP and Finess can't do damages against a Leather Jacket? (50% + 30% + 20% = 100%)
That would be correct, which I learned the hard way :(
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tried P90 vs BA AP and JHP orly? I thought JHP will have like almost 0 but they seem almost the same? Its true in reality? Dont think so but who knows
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Even on a metal armor JHP suck hard. Believe me, if your ennemy have better than a leather jacket, take AP ammo.
The cross over generally happens at Metal Armour. Meaning that JHP and AP are just as good as each other at Metal, JHP better before that, AP better after that.
I'm not sure about your formula Midnight, but what Drakonis said about results is true. You want to hurt an armored target with a Minigun, you hose him with AP, end of story. JHP is going to work too against stuff like Metal Armor mk2 without psycho, but in the end you're going to have AP being slightly more effective on this level and really making the difference against better protection. Since I don't think there's some voodoo magic going on it must be the fact that something's wrong about the formula or you're not taking something into account. I mean I've shot PLENTY of people with .223, 5mm JHP and 5mm AP with a top tier big gun (LSW, Avenger) and I will easily choose AP loaded Avenger for PvP any day of the week - it simply works against lightly armored targets and works best out of the three against guys in Metal and better.
I've not checked what his equations are, but I guess he's probably not taken DT/5 for AP ammo into account - that is why Miniguns are much better vs the higher armours when armed with AP ammo.
Strangely though you will probably get the ultra high results against these high types of armour using JHP (when you get a critical burst) - this confuses people when they do their tests, which is quite funny :)
As for SMGs vs AR. SMGs are fine, AR are pretty weak. Been said a lot of times that AR need boosting.
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The formula has been fixed with what said Atom and its results are probables right know, don't know if they are completly right cause of rounding mainly but it should not be far away from reality.
If you have JHP and APs that should cross around Metal armor, that mean around, and when you have P90 and 10mm SMG using the same ammos, sure they can't cross both on metal armor cause damages are so differents. For why the sim give a cross with P90 on CA MKII but stats for normal damages between Metal and Ca are not that far away from each other, where it change really when you have toughness.
Bonus ranged damages change the cross point too, and finesse and ...
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I think most JHP/AP guns are crossing over at the correct points now. The change a few months to 5mm AP was to get this cross over happening in the correct place ... as well as to nerf miniguns on CA+ :P
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So stats on P90 are wrong? If you can give me what they should be i'll fix them but right know i use the formula given in first post with fix given by Atom about AP ammos and DT.
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Hm, no, I'd changed 10mm AP damage mod to 0.9 from 0.75 on my spreadsheet, but this hasn't been done - so 10mm JHP is infact still better vs most things which aren't CA
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I think most JHP/AP guns are crossing over at the correct points now. The change a few months to 5mm AP was to get this cross over happening in the correct place ... as well as to nerf miniguns on CA+ :P
I agree here that ammo is balanced correctly, but there's still a problem with most small guns, such as the AR, FN FAL - they lack the penetration to do anything against geared enemies.
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Ok good thing to know, solar if you need to make test you can take the sim (if it's accurate) you can simply change ammos stats or weapon stats by editing source (with opera you can do that on the fly) they are stored in an array and i commented it in English not French so that it can be of use for everybody.
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I've got my big spreadsheet of doom where I've got what every weapon does in 10 AP vs every armour :) - Although I changed around a lot of stuff to what I think is balanced, but forgot to lobby Atom about it before the last wipe.
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With 10mm AP at 0.90 and not 0.75 P90c will become insane, i will not complain since it's what i plan to use, but it will be really more dangerous than a FN HFPA.
And what i said a bit above with Assault Rifle against 10mm SMG will be worst, since AR is already weaker :/
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That presumes FN FAL HPFA and AR wouldn't change too.
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Yeah but with what you said earlier, tweak 7.62 ammos to make FN FALs better, that mean you should put 7.62 at same level or higher than .223 to be really usefull, and in this case you have big guns that will be impacted.
Not sure you'll have fun with all this, since M60 is actually weak, but if it become a second LSW, that won't do it, or there will be many raiders ingame :D (or alts and this would be really poor :/)
So i wait to see the changes but here i don't think it will be easy, since balancing AR seems not that hard cause ammos have been balanced some time ago, for the others it will probably be a pain with lot of whining.
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There will be whinning no matter what, so its not really a concearn ;)
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I ve seen recently something a bit weird, the mauser require a guns and bullet book to craft, while the 10mm don't.
Since mauser is the ultimate crappy weapon of the game and only usefull to perfect noobs, require a book costing 5x the price of the gun seem a bit weird to me, is it a mistake or there is an hidden reason?
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Hm, I fixed this once before, seems its back. Will be fixed again on next update