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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Lordus on April 29, 2010, 06:13:28 pm
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Introduction:
As a player with combat experiences from the beginning of the open beta, i think, that combat needs improvement in some ways. The main problem i see, is balance of current "fighter classes", respectively consequences of multiplayer unbalancing of naturaly singleplayer game. It leads to situation, where exist only 2 PvP usable figher classes and only minority of existing weapons are useful in PvP.
Many ideas were written, many responses too, but there was almost zero output. So i dont want to make only suggestion with another ideas, but whole process with many succesive stages. This will allow to involve many players, their own ideas, also response from community and i hope, from developers. Developers, can, naturaly, but i hope, that they will, watch this process, enter into discussion and at least, give us feedback of possibility of game implementation of our suggested changes.
The result of this process is not only one or two particular ideas, but whole view on the future PvP image and playstyle, with background of many supporting players across Fonline community. So the result of this process cant be basicly implemented in this era, aim is next era. But this should not be barrier for testing of our concrete ideas in Fonline engine this era.
P.S.:
1) I think that until devs and core players will make meeting in some pub in the middle of Europe, this forum and this process is most "democratic" way how to involve players and get response from them. This is beta. Beta means at least little responsibility. Nothing hard, only to tune this forum and read some text, maybe add their comment. If players will not be satisfied, but they will not read this official forum, it is their fault. They will have plenty time to react here. I am little disapointed that many players dont want to add their constructive ideas here. Maybe it is because this stage is very abstract, maybe because they dont care.. But if i compare it to other, very concrete threads, this thread looks abadoned :) But maybe it is better for "constructive ideas creators".
2) I know that there is no duty to realize the results of this process. This is project of devs. But they named it open beta test, so they want respons and new ideas. If they want to make entertaining game, they have no other choice.
3) I am little disapointed, that my old teamates but also old enemie does not care about this project. I heard them every day (on Mumble) complaining about some game mechanism, that is not perfect (not just because we lost in combat, we never lose :) ), and they have no time to put their ideas here.
Boys (girls), until you will fuck Cvet/Lexx/Ghosthack's and other devs sisters (brothers), this is the far best chance how to change something.
The process will have this major stages:
Stage 0) Ideas about process itself, not about the PvP
Stage 1) PvP Constitution - the major ideas, ideas standing over ideas, the basic principles. Supportive question is: "What kind of PvP in fonline we would like to have?"
Stage 2) Ideas concretization - the measures, concrete ideas, changes,.. Supportive question is: "How can we realize the PvP Constitution ideas?" Proposals at stage 2 must be compatible with PvP constitution ideas.
Stage 3) Integrated players idea lists - every player/developer involved into this process could post his own list of changes, compatible with result of stage 1 and stage 2
Stage 4) The winner player list minor changes
Stage 5) Result of process. PvP fonline community integrated ideas suggestion to our mighty, powerfull, almost with god's power disposing developers
Note 1.: After every stage, there should be a vote about stage content. Not every time obligatory (in early stages - democracy has own limits), but we will try to listen to the vote result.
Note 2.: If you dont want to be construtive, please, leave this topic or at least, dont spamm nonseses. You will still have possobility to vote after every stage. Thank you Vedaras :) (actualy, you are welcome).
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Stage 0) If you have any ideas about this process, put it in your post like i did right now
Stage 1) PvP balancing, part 1. PvP Constitution
We need basic principles, so write your ideas. If there is opposite idea to yours, now problem, put your too. After we will collect as many ideas as we can, we will, reduce them by eliminating similar ideas, more concrete ideas, ... and we will post the list of them. Then we can make vote. The idea should be abstract, have a form of question, or answer, we will transfor im to right form in right time (i.e.: i want longer fights, should fights be longer or quicker?, i dont want to die soon is = this is the same abstract idea, about duration of combat).
List of basic ideas:
* Should we create multiplayer PvP system or not?
* Should we balance the current system or desing new (balanced) one?
* Should fights be longer, or quicker?
* Should there exist balance over the weapons or some of them will be better with all (most) of their aspects than others?
* Should economy balance the weapons or not.
* Should there exist a at least 2 kinds of guns in every weapon skill usable in PvP or not?
* Should the future pvp be balanced for "everybody", not just pvp builds?
* Should the result of PvP combat depends on the player skill or avatar skill (stats)?
* Should there exist variety in combat or not?
* Should there exist at least little similarity between real world and game world? ***
* Should we design this system to realtime combat?
* Should there exist a turn based combat?
*** I.e.: if you have pistol, short barreled gun, you expect that the gun will not fire to longer distance than rifle, long barreled gun. Or at night, you perception will be reduced than in day time.
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PvP constitution:
1) Fonline should be a multiplayer game.
2) We should create new PvP system (but use current SPECIAL, guns 3D models, enviroment,...). Because we want to make system, that should not be hard to realize. Only few changes (trait, or some minor perk) should be allowed.
3) The fights should be longer than now. Not quicker but also not neverending story.
4) The combat should be more tactical.
5) There should exist various combat. This will allow to create combat more tactical.
6) There should exist balance. Now, we have various combat classes, weapons.. but without balance, combat is not as much tactical, as it can be.
Requirements of tactical combats, various combat and balance results into this:
a) characters - There should not exist universal soldier class at one side (one char can use sniper riffles and minigun too), and also, there should not exist reduction like this one char = only one weapon = only one fight style. I know that you cant change your char stat and "purpose" (big gun, sg, ew) of your char if you reach level 21, but you can use various weapons
b) weapons - almost every combat char (at level 21), should be able to use more than one weapon with very different kind of effect, that will allow you to choose your fight style. Also most of weapons should have ability to choose at least 2 kinds of their fire ability (single shot, burst,..)
c) fight style - the result of combat should not depend on your character stats, but it should depend on your fight style. Even if enemy has bigger firepower, you should be able to defeat him, if you use your merits and enemy disadvatages
7) The economy. Time the player spend in game.
a) Economy benefits. Benefits from player ingame wealth, plurality of resources, should mean that player has bigger variety of choices, not that he has possibility to get more powerfull gun (in all or major attributes).
b) Economy (the weapons, ammo price, avaiability (of professions/weapons/classes) should be balanced at the end of balance process.
8 ) Everybody, not only power builds, should be able to join PvP combat.
a) Everybody is wide term, in my point of view, it is somebody who has enough hit points, chars skill to use weapon's best effect and brain to use player fight style and maximalize the effect of this gun. Everybody is not nolifers only.
b) This has also economy effect. Not only the expensives weapons and armors should be the neccesary items to join PvP and win. (point 8a)
9) There should exist at least little similarity between game world and real world.
I.e.: if you have pistol, short barreled gun, you expect that the gun will not fire to longer distance than rifle, long barreled gun. Or at night, you perception will be reduced than in day time.
10) We should balance 3 firearms classes and melee and unarmed class together, or at least, we should find the role for melee and unarmed.
11) We should focus on realtime combat, not turn based.
Turnbased is part of the game, we would not disable it, but it is not priority for us. So we will focus our attention to realtime only, if there will be any negative side effect in turnbased PvP, we dont care, but we dont want to intentionaly destroy the TB. Turnbased is good mostly for PvE. We are unable to fix turnbased too.
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Link for voting: http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4257.0
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Let's keep this polite and uh... profesional. Also remain in topic.
Nothing to disasgree with the process itself. Only sidenote is that voting will probably be problematic, not to mention getting enough people involved and stay on subject.
Should we balance the current system or desing new one?
We're talking long term here. So why not design a new one. The current is pretty broken and lacks enough variables, tools and toys to play with.
* Should fights be longer, or quicker?
Longer but not in the way that 2 people spend 2 minutes standing next to each other shooting 2 damage shots.
* Should there exist balance over the weapons or some of them will be better with all (most) of their aspects than others?
Right now there is a certain balance: bigger damage equals bigger price. But guns have to have roles, otherwise we don't have enough tactical possibilities.
* Should economy balance the weapons or not.
Not only economy, because it could mean that richer player is always more powerful than skilled player. Players who play 24/7 are naturally more richer ingame than players who play 2h/d. Skill should be the ultimate judge when it comes to pvp.-
* Should there exist a at least 2 kinds of guns in every weapon skill usable in PvP or not?
I'd go for reducing the weapon skills themselves. For example energy weapons and big guns have much less variety than small guns. If we want to reach the same level of variety, it requires many new guns in EW and BG categories.
I've got something to point out too: the future pvp should be balanced for everybody, not just pvp builds. Every build should be allowed to be able to grab a gun and head to the front without sucking completely because. One important factor should be that skills, perks and stats only determine what you can do, not how effectively you can do. So strong man prefers big guns because he can use them, but it doesn't mean that he always has 95% accuracy with them in every situation.
Otherwise we just continue the era of alts and powerbuilds and that's no way to a good and respected mmo. I wish this could be pretty obvious to everybody or we're going to have to discuss the alt/powerbuild issue again.
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I'm afraid you are wrong avv, a game that makes use of stats that can be chosen by the player will always lead to powerbuilds, even if you put caps then you have to take into account perks and that there are so many perks that are just not good for pvp.
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I'm afraid you are wrong avv, a game that makes use of stats that can be chosen by the player will always lead to powerbuilds, even if you put caps then you have to take into account perks and that there are so many perks that are just not good for pvp.
What I'm talking about is to reduce the effects of passive features like character build on player's success and move more potential to player's skill to use differend game mechanics. Powebuilds will always exists, but they don't have to be omnipotent at what they are doing just because somebody made so good char.
Right now the game lacks tools and strategic components to be used for player's advantage. Too much is reliant on player's character. Your chance to hit depends on you weapon skill. Your damage depends on your weapon and perks. Your resistance depends on your armor, perks and stats. Your ability to dodge depends on your ac, but that's basically non existing. Only thing remaining how you can get the best of your enemy is movement and positioning. Your character does everything else for you. Because character build decides so many factors, a better char wins very likely when encountering a weaker char, even if the weaker char happens to have better positioning. When two equally skilled players meet, the one with better char automatically wins. Passive features being dominant is bad game design, kills creativity and strategy and encourages grind.
To change this, chars must have less hitpoints, damage output, accuracy and resistances but receive bonuses to all of them when player uses various features for his advantage. For this we need more active factors. For example enviroment, movement and fields of view are good sources to create active factors from. You can increase your ac by standing behind a window or barrel or by running. You can increase your accuracy by spending action points to aim an enemy, or deploy an overwach field in front of you. You can increase your damage by choosing the right weapon and ammo for right situation. Quick weapon switching might be necessary when situations change.
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Good idea lordus, and also avv.
To all others - make yourself an example of those both and try to argue without any flames and use valid criticsm.
This thread could be really good, so I don't want to see any spam in here.
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in my opinion most people play this game because they like it no matter their shitloads of whining and complains. So if im right, we cant just destroy the system, if you want that wait for cvet TLA sdk files release this year and then create your game filling all your ideas :>
For now this game is still in developing stage, so improving in everything not remaking is needed. Its difficult to do that once most players are willing to ask devs increase strenght in the way they like to play instead of increasing/changing their gameplay to be stronger.
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in my opinion most people play this game because they like it no matter their shitloads of whining and complains. So if im right, we cant just destroy the system, if you want that wait for cvet TLA sdk files release this year and then create your game filling all your ideas :>
For now this game is still in developing stage, so improving in everything not remaking is needed. Its difficult to do that once most players are willing to ask devs increase strenght in the way they like to play instead of increasing/changing their gameplay to be stronger.
I see you did not get the point here. No its not trolling but simple fact. FOnline needs shitload of radical changes if it ever wants to be balanced since current system is designed for single player but it does not work in MMO. As it was said in topic in my signature current 7/5 step char development can't satisfy anyone. Same goes for PvP/PvE that are kinda flat compared to any other game (not in matter of content but in possibilities that used mechanics offer). Just try to imagine some PvE dungeon. Lets say toxic caves from F2. How should it be designed? Only get in, kill everything in your path, get out? No real need for medic/1st line "tank"/engineer/support dps etc? Just take some 3-4 maniacs with enough ammo and lets rock? Sorry but I believe that FOnline can offer much more than that.
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i'd also vote for real time only. However it should be less hectic, more strategic so that it's not crawl but slow enough that you can coordinate with your teammates even when shit hits the fan. Heh, why not add some quickmessages like "retreat" "attack" "wait" "medic". People will script them anyway.
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i can voicemodel for it :D
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I like some of your ideas Lordus, I hope to see each tier weapons usable (one more one less, but almost all - usable). ;)
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i like the pvp system lol i get my ass kicked everytime but its still fun
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Armors need to be enchanced. killing someone in 1-2 hits shoudl be possible only if he is not wearing any armor. Increase armor strenght so the fights lasts longer and are not just a who shots first/bypass armor fest. While making fights last longer= ammo should weight less and be cheaper and easier to make
also i vote for disabled turn based. or creating full TB/ RT SEPARATE servers.
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Armors need to be enchanced. killing someone in 1-2 hits shoudl be possible only if he is not wearing any armor. Increase armor strenght so the fights lasts longer and are not just a who shots first/bypass armor fest. While making fights last longer= ammo should weight less and be cheaper and easier to make
also i vote for disabled turn based. or creating full TB/ RT SEPARATE servers.
''Separate servers for...''
Have you ever noticed how many people play and are simulanteously online? 200 to 400. More servers? For splitting the community into different servers? Damn, i already want 2238 server have 600 people online, i rarely meet someone in places aside PvP (and all of them are known) and NCR (and thoes guys never leave NCR, cause ''wasteland iz harzh''). Also, separate servers just for combat mode? You could aswell make another server just for the heck of it...
Only-RT server wouldnt be that good, and only TB server would be fail for sanity, time and humanity.
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I tried to reduce the ideas into one complex list. If you want to add something, if you have any notes or you disagree with the list, now is your turn. After this sub stage (suggestions to the final view of basic ideas list) we can make a vote.
IMO:
1) Fonline should be a multiplayer game.
2) We should create new PvP system (but use current SPECIAL, guns 3D models, enviroment,...). Because we want to make system, that should not be hard to realize. Only few changes (trait, or some minor perk) should be allowed.
3) The fights should be longer than now. Not quicker but also not neverending story.
4) The combat should be more tactical.
5) There should exist various combat. This will allow to create combat more tactical.
6) There should exist balance. Now, we have various combat classes, weapons.. but without balance, combat is not as much tactical, as it can be.
IMO, in requirements of tactical combats, various combat and balance results into this:
a) characters - There should not exist universal soldier class at one side (one char can use sniper riffles and minigun too), and also, there should not exist reduction like this one char = only one weapon = only one fight style. I know that you cant change your char stat and "purpose" (big gun, sg, ew) of your char if you reach level 21, but you can use various weapons
b) weapons - almost every combat char (at level 21), should be able to use more than one weapon with very different kind of effect, that will allow you to choose your fight style. Also most of weapons should have ability to choose at least 2 kinds of their fire ability (single shot, burst,..)
c) fight style - the result of combat should not depend on your character stats, but it should depend on your fight style. Even if enemy has bigger firepower, you should be able to defeat him, if you use your merits and enemy disadvatages
7) The economy. Time the player spend in game.
a) Economy benefits. Benefits from player ingame wealth, plurality of resources, should mean that player has bigger variety of choices, not that he has possibility to get more powerfull gun (in all or major attributes).
b) Economy (the weapons, ammo price, avaiability (of professions/weapons/classes) should be balanced at the end of balance process.
8 ) Everybody, not only power builds, should be able to join PvP combat.
a) Everybody is wide term, in my point of view, it is somebody who has enough hit points, chars skill to use weapon's best effect and brain to use player fight style and maximalize the effect of this gun. Everybody is not nolifers only.
b) This has also economy effect. Not only the expensives weapons and armors should be the neccesary items to join PvP and win. (point 8a)
9) There should exist at least little similarity between game world and real world.
I.e.: if you have pistol, short barreled gun, you expect that the gun will not fire to longer distance than rifle, long barreled gun. Or at night, you perception will be reduced than in day time.
10) We are unable to balance 3 firearms classes and melee and unarmed class together. Lets focus on firearms and throwing.
11) We should focus on realtime combat, not turn based.
IMO turnbased is part of the game, i would not disable it, but i dont like it (you know, neverending combats, 4 hours long, when only player with no life wins). So we will focus or attention to realtime only, if there will be any negative side effect on turnbased PvP, we dont care. Turnbased is good mostly for PvE. We are unable to fix turnbased too.
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I tried to reduce the ideas into one complex list. If you want to add something, if you have any notes or you disagree with the list, now is your turn. After this sub stage (suggestions to the final view of basic ideas list) we can make a vote.
IMO:
1) Fonline should be a multiplayer game.
2) We should create new PvP system (but use current SPECIAL, guns 3D models, enviroment,...). Because we want to make system, that should not be hard to realize. Only few changes (trait, or some minor perk) should be allowed.
3) The fights should be longer than now. Not quicker but also not neverending story.
4) The combat should be more tactical.
5) There should exist various combat. This will allow to create combat more tactical.
6) There should exist balance. Now, we have various combat classes, weapons.. but without balance, combat is not as much tactical, as it can be.
IMO, in requirements of tactical combats, various combat and balance results into this:
a) characters - There should not exist universal soldier class at one side (one char can use sniper riffles and minigun too), and also, there should not exist reduction like this one char = only one weapon = only one fight style. I know that you cant change your char stat and "purpose" (big gun, sg, ew) of your char if you reach level 21, but you can use various weapons
b) weapons - almost every combat char (at level 21), should be able to use more than one weapon with very different kind of effect, that will allow you to choose your fight style. Also most of weapons should have ability to choose at least 2 kinds of their fire ability (single shot, burst,..)
c) fight style - the result of combat should not depend on your character stats, but it should depend on your fight style. Even if enemy has bigger firepower, you should be able to defeat him, if you use your merits and enemy disadvatages
7) The economy. Time the player spend in game.
a) Economy benefits. Benefits from player ingame wealth, plurality of resources, should mean that player has bigger variety of choices, not that he has possibility to get more powerfull gun (in all or major attributes).
b) Economy (the weapons, ammo price, avaiability (of professions/weapons/classes) should be balanced at the end of balance process.
8 ) Everybody, not only power builds, should be able to join PvP combat.
a) Everybody is wide term, in my point of view, it is somebody who has enough hit points, chars skill to use weapon's best effect and brain to use player fight style and maximalize the effect of this gun. Everybody is not nolifers only.
b) This has also economy effect. Not only the expensives weapons and armors should be the neccesary items to join PvP and win. (point 8a)
9) There should exist at least little similarity between game world and real world.
I.e.: if you have pistol, short barreled gun, you expect that the gun will not fire to longer distance than rifle, long barreled gun. Or at night, you perception will be reduced than in day time.
10) We are unable to balance 3 firearms classes and melee and unarmed class together. Lets focus on firearms and throwing.
11) We should focus on realtime combat, not turn based.
IMO turnbased is part of the game, i would not disable it, but i dont like it (you know, neverending combats, 4 hours long, when only player with no life wins). So we will focus or attention to realtime only, if there will be any negative side effect on turnbased PvP, we dont care. Turnbased is good mostly for PvE. We are unable to fix turnbased too.
Only way to make it possible is to rework leveling/advancement system completly. Skill % should raise within skill usage.
You fire up some mantis with flamer? your bigguns will slighty advance.
After that you decide to switch back to your favourite(tagged) kind of weapons which is small guns and shot some mantis with a .223 pistol? Your small guns exp will raise(but better than in case of bigguns, since it was not your tagged skills).
After that you notice you are wounded because 1 of the mantis hve bitten you in your middle finger so you First Aid yourself. Your FA exp raise a bit(since its non tagged).
Oh look your weapon detoriated during the fight: you repair them and get some repair descent repair exp since it's your tagged skill.
(I allready suggested it somehere. also there should be % limit for tagged: 300% and for non tagged: 150% MAX. Of course reaching MAX in ANY skill should take WEEKS OF REAL TIME INGAME PLAYING. Imagine 2238 liveliness with such system oh btw. alts would be gone.)
Perk could be gained from quests that you meet requirements to make. Perks should be nerfed a lot(some) since it's just passive way to make a good character/
Overall lvl could stay and raise HP with each level. but still NOT MUCH. diffrence between a starting character HP and a END GAME character HP should be NOT THAT BIG: the biggest diffrence in how many hits you can survive should depend on your armor.
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Only way to make it possible is to rework leveling/advancement system completly.
Stage 1) PvP Constitution - the major ideas, ideas standing over ideas, the basic principles. Supportive question is: "What kind of PvP in fonline we would like to have?"
Stage 2) Ideas concretization - the measures, concrete ideas, changes,.. Supportive question is: "How can we realize the PvP Constitution ideas?" Proposals at stage 2 must be compatible with PvP constitution ideas.
We are not at stage two (part 2). Dont hurry :)
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Stage 1) PvP Constitution - the major ideas, ideas standing over ideas, the basic principles. Supportive question is: "What kind of PvP in fonline we would like to have?"
Stage 2) Ideas concretization - the measures, concrete ideas, changes,.. Supportive question is: "How can we realize the PvP Constitution ideas?" Proposals at stage 2 must be compatible with PvP constitution ideas.
We are not at stage two (part 2). Dont hurry :)
thread name got me confused. it says part not stage
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Lordus I pretty much agree with your basic constitution. If nobody has anything to add here we could slowly move to stage 2 and start discussing ways and measures to reach our constitution. Change the stage when you feel like it.
10) We are unable to balance 3 firearms classes and melee and unarmed class together. Lets focus on firearms and throwing.
Actually it is possible. Melee chars could be sneaky sneakers who take out invidual enemies. Much in the same way as predator or some horror movie knife murderer does. Predicts his enemies perfectly, appears from nowhere and disappears when least expected.
And if the player can afford it, he can become an armored tank with super sledge, taking out people with ambush attacks. Nothing like power armored dudes beating each other with powerfists and super sledges.
So let's just take a little freedom to bend reality when finding ways to mend it along with other fighting styles.
Besides, many npc encounters use melee so we gotta find a way how they are handled in our future fighting system.
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thread name got me confused. it says part not stage
I am sorry, i invented the names after i created the topic..
Actually it is possible. Melee chars could be sneaky sneakers who take out invidual enemies. Much in the same way as predator or some horror movie knife murderer does. Predicts his enemies perfectly, appears from nowhere and disappears when least expected.
Ok, it will be harder.. Actualy, i think that melee and unarmed skills should be used in different occasions than real PvP fight, but we can discus it at stage 2.
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c) fight style - the result of combat should not depend on your character stats, but it should depend on your fight style. Even if enemy has bigger firepower, you should be able to defeat him, if you use your merits and enemy disadvatages
fallout was originally a turn based RPG. Isn't the whole point about character build and stats? If i wanted a game where it was based on skill of aiming and reaction times then I would play an FPS. I'm here because I enjoy the tactical and role playing aspect. I like carefully planning out my character build and thinking of the various intricacies that are a part of it. Not simply "lol lets just pump some random skills here and i should be able to contend with someone who carefully planned out his build for a couple of hours" Don't get me wrong i don't care much for the current system of "put everything into big guns and simply make a crafting alt" but i don't like the idea of "everyone is equal" also.
7) The economy. Time the player spend in game.
a) Economy benefits. Benefits from player ingame wealth, plurality of resources, should mean that player has bigger variety of choices, not that he has possibility to get more powerfull gun (in all or major attributes)
As it is now the extremely rich do have options. Having multiple bases with multiple stockpiles of supplies means they can jump into the action whenever, or at least very quickly if they die in combat. To me thats where the economic bonus comes in. Unless you're working completely solo it isn't hard at all to accumulate the "top tier" weapons/armor. Its simply a matter of getting a stockpile of the stuff so that i can jump into the action again right away.
8 ) Everybody, not only power builds, should be able to join PvP combat.
This is the most perplexing comment. I don't know how to view it exactly. I have 2 characters, with my main being a doctor who is built for bursting with small guns. I have only 5st, 6pe, 4en, 5ch, 7in, 8ag, 6lk. Maybe i've just had a long streak of being lucky, but i've always fared well enough in a firefight. Granted I know i'm not suited for combat 1v1, but many builds aren't meant for 1v1. Are we trying to balance it so that its setup that way? I've always viewed my build far from being "power build" if i was power build I would drop 1st (p90's only require 4) drop all my CH, get more endurance, etc. But i don't, and i do just fine without toughness even. I'm not running around combat armor all the time, i generally go with the metal armor my faction makes. (the perks i've grabbed certainly aren't required, awareness, double bonus damage, lifegiver, brof, and 2 more left, i figured either double action boy or the doctor perk with something else)
11) We should focus on realtime combat, not turn based.
Why can't we have a healthy mixture of both?.
a) Everybody is wide term, in my point of view, it is somebody who has enough hit points, chars skill to use weapon's best effect and brain to use player fight style and maximalize the effect of this gun. Everybody is not nolifers only.
What does this mean because have no idea what you're trying to say here.
Please note: Don't necessarily think i'm simply out to stop what you're doing. To me the best means of achieving a working system is to question the ones being suggested. They need to stand up on their own. I'm simply pointing out my experiences and thoughts/questions, but I do wholeheartedly agree that some changes are necessary.
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* Should we create multiplayer PvP system or not?
Yeah i think a Fallout game without being able to attack a critter PC or not is not really a Fallout.
* Should we balance the current system or desing new (balanced) one?
I think we should balance the actual system, maybe tweaking some parts, but for a RPG Video game, the system is not that bad, it's even pretty good.
* Should fights be longer, or quicker?
Can't really awnser to that, i think sniper combat insta kill or so (knockout) are too short, for the other combat it was ok, i think if powerbuild are not in game, they are ok.
* Should there exist balance over the weapons or some of them will be better with all (most) of their aspects than others?
I think there should be a balance between weapon of the same tier. For exemple a XL70E3 and a P90c should be 2 different ways to play the game, but not one stronger or weaker.
* Should economy balance the weapons or not? They should but not on a linear scale.
If you have a weapon doing 12-16 and cost 500 the one doing 24-32 can't cost 1000 but really more ...
* Should there exist a at least 2 kinds of guns in every weapon skill usable in PvP or not?
If possible but it will be hard to do so for throwing.
* Should the future pvp be balanced for "everybody", not just pvp builds?
PVP power build should still have a little advantage, they are made for that, but powerbuild should not be the only way to go, letting player make more creatives build and still do it in PVP. Anyway i think that when you have "powerbuild" in a game you have great balancing issues (yeah it's almost the definition).
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* Should the result of PvP combat depends on the player skill or avatar skill (stats)?
Both? I mean avatar is designed to give oppotunities to the player. So some avatar skills should allow new options others should be unavaible. Then the player should do at best using his skills and those of his avatar, basically it's tactic.
* Should there exist variety in combat or not?
Yeah i awnser right before i think. There should be opportunities to do different things, and not simple, kill be killed or runaway.
* Should there exist at least little similarity between real world and game world? Why not, there are similarities with Fallout 2 and our world, but seriously, the most important is gameplay, no matter if this is not the same as our world. But yeah if we have the choice, why not?
* Should we design this system to realtime combat?
Real time is actually a big problem, a build can be godlike in TB and suck in RT, the 2 should be more alike. There are too many disresemblance between the two mods and actually TB is the one using the more possibility of the game and offering the more tactic.
* Should there exist a turn based combat?
Hell of course, this question should be for realtime :D
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I see you did not get the point here. No its not trolling but simple fact. FOnline needs shitload of radical changes if it ever wants to be balanced since current system is designed for single player but it does not work in MMO. As it was said in topic in my signature current 7/5 step char development can't satisfy anyone. Same goes for PvP/PvE that are kinda flat compared to any other game (not in matter of content but in possibilities that used mechanics offer). Just try to imagine some PvE dungeon. Lets say toxic caves from F2. How should it be designed? Only get in, kill everything in your path, get out? No real need for medic/1st line "tank"/engineer/support dps etc? Just take some 3-4 maniacs with enough ammo and lets rock? Sorry but I believe that FOnline can offer much more than that.
It wasn't designed for singleplayer, it was designed for pen and paper RPG game system called GURPS. GURPS' creators didn't want their system to be associated with graphically depicted violence, so Black Isle didn't get the license for Fallout and came up with SPECIAL - but basically SPECIAL and GURPS are to each other like 2nd and 3rd editions of D&D. If you talk simple facts, at least get your info straight.
Anyway - you're talking "tank"/engineer/support in a game that has combat involving firearms. Sorry, you won't get the fantasy/medieval character classes for the same reason a spear isn't a popular choice for PvP. What you get are more or less realistic tactics and emphasis on teamplay - and it's already there. And while the game could use some sort of added cover and suppression mechanic, the way combat works is determined by a) high lethality and b) human psychology. It's just funny how many real military tactics apply to FOnline combat with its quite arbitrary system, really. The only thing that's missing is fire and movement, but then again even if their characters can't be suppressed players still can - seeing entire gangs getting pinned because they lost a man is a common occurence in bigger TC battles. Same with cover - yeah, you can't really lean "vertically" over a window, but smart people are still taking cover behind walls and pop out only to discharge their firearms. I mean everybody is moaning that the system is too simple and offers little choice in terms of strategy forgetting about the wonderfully complex group apect - the difference is there and it's as large as between a defence shooting in a mugging gone wrong scenario and squad tactics used in Afghanistan. 1v1 in FOnline is as simple as draw-> shoot, which is exactly how it is in real life and how it should be when modern firearms are being modelled. The only problem is the consistently high hit rate resulting in relatively small ammunition expenditure, but then again it really helps with eliminating the luck factor and fits well with the lack of partial cover.
If anything, the low tier of weaponry should be somewhat improved to make stuff like pistols actually usable for anything other than trolling. I mean yeah, you can instakill with a 10mm pistol, but when it doesn't crit it's not really doing much - and that's just wrong. Every weapon should be capable of killing a player in a full-AP attack, they should just differ when it comes to details like range or accuracy. If we had a damage overhaul that's in line with what weapons realistically do, we'd have the Assault Rifle being the assault rifle, and not a toy useful only for plinking at rats. That's like the only thing that feels wrong about fighting in this game - and it's practically nullified by players using the top tier stuff only. Another nice thing that's in line with such damage change would be increasing the rate of injury related incapacitation to death - it'd be nice if being taken out in combat didn't necesarily mean being killed - increasing the number o -HP you could be on while staying alive and increasing the replication time would mean more realism (and probably cause a massive amount of whine from permanoobs that can't move from one end of the NCR to another without risking being killed, lol).
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Theres a squad based tactical mmofps called planetside out there. With firearms. They have medics, engineers, hackers, they dont have "tanks" but there are different kinds of armor thats made to fit that role, and -get this-, even sneakers wearing no armor, but are invisible, and... *gasp*, they are HtH armed with nothing but a knife. Everybody has their own role.
Just watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Twyfcncurg&feature=related, stop at 1:51, there are the character roles/classes.
Something like fo:tactics...Sorta.
Another game, anarchy online, is an mmorpg, and has medics, engineers, hackers, heavy armored "tanks", and even - get this -, even sneakers wearing no armor, but are invisible, and... *gasp*, they are HtH armed with nothing but a knife. Everybody has their own role.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6sa3c75kJk
Like a traditional mmorpg...
It seems to me, that special, with its arsenal of skills could feature these roles, but currently, cant. So whats the difference? Well...To me, and sius, and a few others, FOnline refers to an mmorpg. To you, it refers to fo:tactics. Problem is, that FOnline is NEITHER. It seems that not even the devs know what they want with this game, make it an mmo, or fo:tactics. Crafting system is allmost mmo-ish, combat system is allmost tactics-ish.
Bottom line: Both views are valid, so dont bash. Its politics. But if you want FOnline:Tactics, the game still needs some standard mmo cliches.
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Theres a squad based tactical mmofps called planetside out there. With firearms. They have medics, engineers, hackers, they dont have "tanks" but there are different kinds of armor thats made to fit that role, and -get this-, even sneakers wearing no armor, but are invisible, and... *gasp*, they are HtH armed with nothing but a knife. Everybody has their own role.
Just watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Twyfcncurg&feature=related, stop at 1:51, there are the character roles/classes.
Something like fo:tactics...Sorta.
Another game, anarchy online, is an mmorpg, and has medics, engineers, hackers, heavy armored "tanks", and even - get this -, even sneakers wearing no armor, but are invisible, and... *gasp*, they are HtH armed with nothing but a knife. Everybody has their own role.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6sa3c75kJk
Like a traditional mmorpg...
It seems to me, that special, with its arsenal of skills could feature these roles, but currently, cant. So whats the difference? Well...To me, and sius, and a few others, FOnline refers to an mmorpg. To you, it refers to fo:tactics. Problem is, that FOnline is NEITHER. It seems that not even the devs know what they want with this game, make it an mmo, or fo:tactics. Crafting system is allmost mmo-ish, combat system is allmost tactics-ish.
Bottom line: Both views are valid, so dont bash. Its politics. But if you want FOnline:Tactics, the game still needs some standard mmo cliches.
I'm not saying that having different classes is bad, I'm just saying you won't get too much variety if you keep combat lethal - at the end of the day it's various kinds of "riflemen" (because that's what a powerbuild really is) duking it out using a more or less bastardized version of military tactics - which for me is fine because it's interesting and deep. You just won't have it any other way without decreasing the damage considerably and getting boring run and gun instead. Introducing crew served weapons or vehicles would add another layer and change things a bit, but I don't think this game would profit from further "militarization" as it'd just increase the distance between the leading gangs and your typical crafter.
Basically, it's weapon capabilities (specifically, their lethality) determining the way combat unfolds. In such environment the character classes will always be determined by weapons they're going to deploy, and not by some arbitrary cliche. You could increase the usefulness of some weapons that currently are not receiving the love they should (like explosives), but the core won't change a lot even if you switch SPECIAL for something else - at the end of the day it's still going to be about small unit tactics, proper positioning and coordination.
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4) The combat should be more tactical.
Do you remember Fallout: Tactics BoS? Terrible, ain't it? But it had a certain grace to it. The stance swiching system. You know, your character could lay on the ground, crouch or stand up straight, these different postures would have an influence over your characters basic attributes.That's kindo neat, iseth?
You say our game could be a little more tactic? Maybe they could do something like the aforemention'd system that doesn't totally suck?
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First step in tacticalishness™ is AP regeneration. Switching weapons->Big penalty leading to death in RT.
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=4416.0
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Yeah and in tactics, changing stance cost APs and take time, that would simply lead to snipers crouching and killing from long range everybody trying to change stance. (that was the case in tactics)
Combat are too short against powerbuild to let this be of any use and in the case of hard balanced combat, don't think you can afford to loose 2 AP to change stance.
In tactics not everyone add 150% like it's the case in FOnline, that would be really terrible to balance this, and could lead to nonsense like someone unable to shoot a guy crouching sneaking right next to him :/
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Yeah and in tactics, changing stance cost APs and take time, that would simply lead to snipers crouching and killing from long range everybody trying to change stance. (that was the case in tactics)
Combat are too short against powerbuild to let this be of any use and in the case of hard balanced combat, don't think you can afford to loose 2 AP to change stance.
In tactics not everyone add 150% like it's the case in FOnline, that would be really terrible to balance this, and could lead to nonsense like someone unable to shoot a guy crouching sneaking right next to him :/
Yeah in tactics snipers were pretty strong. But that was because every char had 360 degree vision and instantaneous reaction in overwatch mode.
Besides, stances aren't absolutely must if more strategy ir required.
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It seems to me like classes already do exist in FOnline, in terms of combat specific classes. You have disablers (snipers, missile launchers) and damage dealing characters (Mini-Guns). The disablers try to knock other characters down, cripple them, or deal critical damage, and in essence, play on chance.
Perhaps trying to differentiate the different weapons classes to play to strengths already inherent in these classes, and also trying to work within the two naturally occurring combat classes (disabler/damage dealer) would make it much easier to balance the game.
For instance, big guns have always had good area of effect. Perhaps their current problem is that mini-guns don't have enough spread to play to this strength, and instead deal such concentrated damage that they become the end all and be all of damage dealing weapons. Then, small guns can compete with mini-guns not by doing comparable total damage, but instead allowing a more concentrated application of damage. This would also make battles last longer, because as is, the reason they're short is insta-kills from mini-gunners.
I don't know where energy weapons would play into all of this, though. Melee and unarmed are a challenge because of the limitations of the game's engine, from what I can tell (no running to perform an action, etc.), but they're actually fairly well defined in terms of the two natural weapons classes (melee more easily deals damage, unarmed is better for crits).
Also, perhaps part of the answer to reducing the amount of alt-ing that occurs is to more substantially limit the benefit of pumping all of your points into your weapons skill. This might make the game more chance based by doing things like increasing the importance of AC (just an example, since it depends on how you enforce the limit), but that wouldn't effect big gunners if they're more splashy.
I'm not trying to make specific suggestions though. I guess I'm trying to point out what classes already exist, but need more definition, and how you could play off of mechanics that people are already trying to use in order to re-balance things.