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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Serey on April 27, 2010, 11:05:23 pm
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Now sneak is useless. Earlier it was overpowered. I think there is a solution for it (it was basicly Ninja's idea but I've changed it and decided to post it on forum). It's just three simple steps to make sneak usefull (as a defensive ability) and not overpowered (5-15 seconds is enough to don't get bursted from behind by sneaking bigguner, I think). So with this 3 steps sneak can be just as like as without FOV working.
1. Can't attack with sneak on.
2. After turning sneak off, cooldown for attack (not much, 5 to 15 seconds)
3. After turning off sneak 1-2 minutes for turning it on again.
Basicly, we don't have defensive skills in the game. The only way to stay alive is kill before got killed. And idea using sneak to avoid zillions of powerbuilds with miniguns/avengers/LSW's will be great feature for players who tries to play looners and have some real RP fun and don't wanna fight with powerbuilds (if you are calling 21lvl powerbuild with avenger vs 5lvl melee fighter a real fight). I hope I've made myself understandable, becouse I'm not native english speaker.
Dev's at least spend a minute of your valuable time and try to imagine that in the game :)
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With your suggestion, theres still place for sneak looting and scouting which is eneligible
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With your suggestion, theres still place for sneak looting and scouting which is eneligible
i think that what sneakers should do. Sneak is thieving skill in first place. When big gunner is using sneak if find it wrong.
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i think that what sneakers should do. Sneak is thieving skill in first plays. When big gunner is using sneak if find it wrong.
Then you again have a build that does not have drawbacks from death (such as unarmed), people will just make sneaker alts and just run around collecting gear of others or their own when they die, basically they don't lose anything.
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Aaaaand thats totally not the way how to develop the game... seriously, hotfix something you dont like with even worse solution never works.
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i think that what sneakers should do. Sneak is thieving skill in first plays. When big gunner is using sneak if find it wrong.
Klingon Warbird De-Cloaking!
Or like the Predator firing while cloaked.
SF/Sci-Fi, but not retro-Fallout.
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Sneak shouldn't be removed if you dealing silent attacks = punching, kicking, cutting, swinging, throwing (knives, spears, rocks), etc.
Sneaker, who attacked you with any way described above (melee/throwing non grenades) must become visible for you.
And also if you once spoted sneaker (he attacked you, or came too close), he must be visible for YOU till he leave your FoV. So to hide again from the person, who has spoted him, he must hide behind wall or other object. *Ghost perk can allow to avoid that at night, so you'll always can be hiden if someone spoted you by walking away from his sneak-visible-view.
Attacking sneaker (if he takes damage by any source except for poison/radiation) must break his sneaking (I'm not sure it's already or not, but I think it is, so nvm)
There's no need bonuses to sneak when you walking near static object like barrels, crates or wall. Opposite make penalty if there's no objects. Make it almost impossible to sneak at day, if there's no any static objects near. It must have low penalty from back view, and like 0% success by sneaking from forward view. At night sneaking will have less penalty from forward view.
Standing at the same place (no move) must give you great bonus to your sneak skill.
Needler pistol and BB gun can be silent weapon too.
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Well I find it quite frustrating that when you win a battle, you realize that theres nothing to loot, because enemy team fast relogged to their sneaky looters and collected all :(.
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bloody cowards
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I think sneak should be HtH-only, like suggested by Silent Death (FO1/2) and Ninja (FO3) perks: the classic "Sneak Attack".
You can do this in a simple way: Sneak is AUTOMATICALLY disable if you have non-melee/unarmed weapon in one of the two slots :)
Have you ever seen a ninja with minigun?
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Like i said before : Sneak is good when is useless!
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1) full sneak ability only at night hours, in daytime, the sneak effect should be reduced in daytime
2) set up weight limit for sneakers
3) set up weapons, armors uncompatible with sneak.. (all big guns, metal, kevlar and power armors will disable sneak) - sneak helps to reduce optic, sound and smell percept .. dont make "invisible bigguner tank class" of player. also almost invisible snipers. lets sneak is options for small gunners (not pure snipers)
4) add to some (small) guns ability (perk) to stay in sneak mode after shooting .. set constant propability to this perk effect (50 percent per shot???), allow only to smgs guns to burst with this kind of perk
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ad 1) Sneak should not add benefit for everyone, everywhere, everytime. I suggest one third of night (full sneak) effect when is daytime, one half in day/raining
ad 2) Set up level that sneak attacker should use basic armors and basic weapons, with no chance to loot many stuff and run away hidden => 20 kg?
ad 3) Sneak is very powerfull abilty. Give sneak only to classes, which are not powerfull now. I dont see any sense, if is able to add sneak to big gunners.. They have big firepower now in combination with enough lives and even powerbuilds can still spare their skillpoints in the sneak (if doctor and FA skill is now useless). Also pure snipers, with int 6 needs to use 231 skill points into their skill, so they dont have enough skill points to raise it to the enough level.
Look at the number of unused guns, all biggunner guns are useful in PvP, major of energy guns too, minority of small guns are usable in PvP. So focus the aim on this guns and player "class"
ad 4) This will help small gun players to effectively fight in battlefield. 50 percent per burst means total of 25 percent after second one... and small guns firepower is not too big.
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I don't like that weight limit. I would prefer sneak mechanics as they are in FT. Simply metal armor = noise. Leather/kevlar/environmental stuff = less noise or non. Same for weapons. Huge BGF in hands can make it harder to hide yourself (if you are not hiding behind that BGF) but weight limits really sucks and imho only active slots should count.
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I don't like that weight limit. I would prefer sneak mechanics as they are in FT. Simply metal armor = noise. Leather/kevlar/environmental stuff = less noise or non. Same for weapons. Huge BGF in hands can make it harder to hide yourself (if you are not hiding behind that BGF) but weight limits really sucks and imho only active slots should count.
We have to look to the effect of this change. What kind of player class we will create and think, if we want to support this consequences. I think that any big gunner dont need to raise his fight ability in fight by sneak. So aim sneak ability to small gunners with SMG weapons, maybe with assault riffles. Any biggunner dont want to reduce their firepower, most of them dont want to slow them in the fight, so why add this very usefull ability?? This is totaly nonsese, if someone wants to at least balance the game.
If you allow to sneak only to players using smallguns, with addign special perk to some guns, like i described, you will create new "class" of fighter, usable in the PvP, so now, after 9 months, we will have 3 combat classes, hurray, instead of 2. The fight will be more variable, the sneaker will never do big constant damage like biggunner, but they will be able (in night/day raining) to ambush enemies.
If you dont set weight limit, there will be many player parasites, not fighting bluesuits, stealing the loot on the ground masivelly, with small (smaller than now) posibility to stop them. Is this the purpose of your non weight limit in sneak, Sius?
Devs, please, ask question, what i want, then make decision how to realize it. Not in different way. I suggest reasonable changes.
The problem is balance of snek invisibility range. IMO, set the effective level in comparsion to average big gunners perception (6?).. Snipers are not (usualy) in the first line. Make from sneakers ability to hit enemy bigguners, with 50 percent chance of unseen attack. It will be solid hit and run SMG PvP class.
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Sneak is good at the moment, but needs a real investment into that skill (300% etc.). I tested it a bit and I find it still useful in various situations. Of course no more looting by sneak ninjas just in the middle of a crowd, no more sneaking up to 3 hexes with biggunner (or well, maybe it's possible if someone is really good :) ). I like sneak as it is now, maybe it could use few little fixes but no serious stuff.
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Sneak is good at the moment, but needs a real investment into that skill (300% etc.). I tested it a bit and I find it still useful in various situations. Of course no more looting by sneak ninjas just in the middle of a crowd, no more sneaking up to 3 hexes with biggunner (or well, maybe it's possible if someone is really good :) ). I like sneak as it is now, maybe it could use few little fixes but no serious stuff.
i understand, but my genius ideas are reason why to make changes :DDD
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Perhaps, sneak should work as a counter-measure against snipers in a well-known fantasy trio : fighter (big gunner) beats thief (sneaker), thief beats mage (sniper) and mage beats fighter. So sneakers could be effective against snipers but stand no chance against big gunner ;).
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Perhaps, sneak should work as a counter-measure against snipers in a well-known fantasy trio : fighter (big gunner) beats thief (sneaker), thief beats mage (sniper) and mage beats fighter. So sneakers could be effective against snipers but stand no chance against big gunner ;).
Then i a want to be Spock :))
I think that stone scissors paper is good way where to start balancing game classes, but how can sneaker could be counter measure against snipers, if snipers have the biggest perception and perception is reducing the sneaker invisibility cloak. In fact, sniper is counter measure for sneaker now.
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http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Silent_Death .
Build around that one. 3 hex rule sucks. Minigunner sneaker sucks. Cannot be used in TB in any way sucks. Silent Weapons FTW. Bonus AC when sneaking FTW.
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Perhaps, sneak should work as a counter-measure against snipers in a well-known fantasy trio : fighter (big gunner) beats thief (sneaker), thief beats mage (sniper) and mage beats fighter. So sneakers could be effective against snipers but stand no chance against big gunner ;).
I see you have great plans for HtH :(
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Then i a want to be Spock :))
I think that stone scissors paper is good way where to start balancing game classes, but how can sneaker could be counter measure against snipers, if snipers have the biggest perception and perception is reducing the sneaker invisibility cloak. In fact, sniper is counter measure for sneaker now.
snipers are the best sacrifice for sneakers with grenades (which are the only weapons little usefull with sneak). they see you on more hexes from front but i think its easier to come to their back, and then you have no chance agaist bursters (they deal big dmg and wear good armors which have big protection agaist plasma) , but , when you come near sniper, he will loose his distance advantage, he cant shoot at you so much like bigguner, you have chance to alive more shoots and average sniper wears just weak armors so you deal big dmgs agaist them with grenades.
I think sneak is ok for now, i dont know if some of penalties works but its ok, i must test it more but it is usable ability if you reach it on 300.
and please dont reduce sneak ability during day, it will make it unusable.
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first of all sneak is combat avoiding skill not a bonus to you in combat. I would make sneak skill damn powerful for looters, thieves, scouts, and useless for those who handle any gun or armor (or maybe anything in inventory at all, so in this way looters, thieves will get detected once they loot, and in this way 3 hexes rule could be disabled (for 1 PE not ten of course :D)).
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first of all sneak is combat avoiding skill not a bonus to you in combat. I would make sneak skill damn powerful for looters, thieves, scouts, and useless for those who handle any gun or armor (or maybe anything in inventory at all, so in this way looters, thieves will get detected once they loot, and in this way 3 hexes rule could be disabled (for 1 PE not ten of course :D)).
so you wanna make sneak ability usefull just for bastards which wanna loot (steal) items.and unusable for normal players.
you better want to turn this ability completely off.
Nobody, will have main character for stealing and looting stuff , nobody will want to have character which is usable just for staying in city and waiting for fight to loot items which he cant use because he dont have weapon skill, so as was said there befor.there will be a lot of alts with sneak which people will turn on just when they will see that somebody fights in town and he will go there and parasite on normal good people.
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Perhaps, sneak should work as a counter-measure against snipers in a well-known fantasy trio : fighter (big gunner) beats thief (sneaker), thief beats mage (sniper) and mage beats fighter. So sneakers could be effective against snipers but stand no chance against big gunner ;).
Not bad idea, but it would make majority of small guns useless because if only class for small guns was sniper what to do with shotguns, smg, assault rifles and pistols?
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first of all sneak is combat avoiding skill not a bonus to you in combat. I would make sneak skill damn powerful for looters, thieves, scouts, and useless for those who handle any gun or armor (or maybe anything in inventory at all, so in this way looters, thieves will get detected once they loot, and in this way 3 hexes rule could be disabled (for 1 PE not ten of course :D)).
Usually, Sneak is ALSO a combat ability, like the already said Sneak Attack, the "hit from shadow", the surprise attack...
But should be HtH only. Or it makes a sense if is also usable by Snipers, but if you do so they need a nerf in something else (range or crits chance or damage...).
so you wanna make sneak ability usefull just for bastards which wanna loot (steal) items.and unusable for normal players.
you better want to turn this ability completely off.
Nobody, will have main character for stealing and looting stuff , nobody will want to have character which is usable just for staying in city and waiting for fight to loot items which he cant use because he dont have weapon skill, so as was said there befor.there will be a lot of alts with sneak which people will turn on just when they will see that somebody fights in town and he will go there and parasite on normal good people.
Why? Jackals and Scavenger definitely make a sense in a post-nuclear world.
And personally I respect more a Thief than a lvl 21 PK killing blusuits and workers...
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Ability against sneak is perception. Every sniper has very big perception (10, or less but perk). So sneaker as a counter sniper measure is totaly nonsense.
What is the current situation? Every biggunner can sneak or what? Damn, why devs dont want to balance this game using their brains.. I think that we should made a real good suggestion about PvP combat, with players with brain and then hope the devs will find that there can exist role for 10 fighter class in the game, instead of 2 (Team Fortress 2)
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Ability against sneak is perception. Every sniper has very big perception (10, or less but perk). So sneaker as a counter sniper measure is totaly nonsense.
What is the current situation? Every biggunner can sneak or what? Damn, why devs dont want to balance this game using their brains.. I think that we should made a real good suggestion about PvP combat, with players with brain and then hope the devs will find that there can exist role for 10 fighter class in the game, instead of 2 (Team Fortress 2)
I think after they turned fov on there are less bursters/sneakers .Today i will test grenader/sneaker in pvp so i hope it will be usefull.
Now (but before i test it) i think sneak is good now, just need to add some penalties, idk if there are penalties for wearing armors and for stuff in inventory, These are needed.
Lordus just think about it, PE is that ability which helps you to detect sneaker earlier but i calculated that if you have 300 sneak , and opponent has 10 PE he can see you from 12 hexes from front (without penalties which idk if they are turned on).
And its good to throw grenades from something about 10 hexes so i think it is rly usefull if you use it agaist snipers and you are thrower...
I just need to test it because i dont thrust anything what is wroten in afterwipe changelog, so i will see.
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so you wanna make sneak ability usefull just for bastards which wanna loot (steal) items.and unusable for normal players.
you better want to turn this ability completely off.
Nobody, will have main character for stealing and looting stuff , nobody will want to have character which is usable just for staying in city and waiting for fight to loot items which he cant use because he dont have weapon skill, so as was said there befor.there will be a lot of alts with sneak which people will turn on just when they will see that somebody fights in town and he will go there and parasite on normal good people.
this ability is for that kinda bastards, watch perks like "thief" sneaking and stealing is very related. And you are very wrong, sneak scouts would be very useful for gangs, as they were when fov was turned off, sneak looters would be very useful for loners, who would want to grab this new lsw without any difficulty. And i will repeat myself by saying this is the way how this skill suppose to work in first place.
Usually, Sneak is ALSO a combat ability, like the already said Sneak Attack, the "hit from shadow", the surprise attack...
But should be HtH only. Or it makes a sense if is also usable by Snipers, but if you do so they need a nerf in something else (range or crits chance or damage...).
Yes i agree that sneak should be combat ability for HTH characters, while for those you really would need to sneak to your target.
And i am 100% against sneaking for snipers. Look how snipers snipe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsofAdHC5Wo&feature=related they lay down, deploy their gun and aim through scope. Tell me you can sneak in these conditions.
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Damn, why devs dont want to balance this game using their brains.. I think that we should made a real good suggestion about PvP combat, with players with brain and then hope the devs will find that there can exist role for 10 fighter class in the game, instead of 2 (Team Fortress 2)
Don't blame the devs on this one. The real reason is the lack of good feedback. Many of our "playtesters" don't give a damn about the testing part, many of them have no clue about good game balance. The real reason why devs haven't put real preissure on pvp development was the lack of good feedback. It's so far mostly been about going back and forth with big guns and snipers dominating. There's rarely any serious talk about more in-dept combat changes. For example crafting underwent some serious testing, we had all kinds of cooldowns and gathering methdos and now it's actually pretty good, due to good developing but hell, we players did our part by giving feedback.
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this ability is for that kinda bastards, watch perks like "thief" sneaking and stealing is very related. And you are very wrong, sneak scouts would be very useful for gangs, as they were when fov was turned off, sneak looters would be very useful for loners, who would want to grab this new lsw without any difficulty.
I made my sneaker because i wanted scout , but scout should fight too, or we will just have scout which will just use fast relog to another pvp char.
Perks dont matter,you just want to make this ability for thieves and these kind of bastards which dont want craft anything, I wanna make another usefull skill for team PVP and make another kind of fighter.I know, you are loner and you dont do PVP but a lot of people plays this game for PVP so think on them too.
And i will repeat myself by saying this is the way how this skill suppose to work in first place.
and who told you that? you had dream where Jesus told you that or its just your invention?just tell me some good reasons for that and without talking about how it works in real life . because this is online game.
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Lordus just think about it, PE is that ability which helps you to detect sneaker earlier but i calculated that if you have 300 sneak , and opponent has 10 PE he can see you from 12 hexes from front (without penalties which idk if they are turned on).
And its good to throw grenades from something about 10 hexes so i think it is rly usefull if you use it agaist snipers and you are thrower...
I just need to test it because i dont thrust anything what is wroten in afterwipe changelog, so i will see.
Now, you have 2 basic PvP build, snipers with 10 perception (or little less but perk) and biggunenners with PE cca 6?? So if you want to create anti sniper PvP class (=sneaker), you have to set the PE x Sneak limit to correct level. But if you will do that, every biggunner, with smaller perception (naturaly) than sniper, will be in huge disadvantege against sneaker. So your sniper will see sneaker in some 12 hexes, but your bigguner will not. So this is the major nonsesne i see in this idea.
This changes should be complex, not particular, with need of good judgment consequesces.
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Yes i agree that sneak should be combat ability for HTH characters, while for those you really would need to sneak to your target.
And i am 100% against sneaking for snipers. Look how snipers snipe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsofAdHC5Wo&feature=related they lay down, deploy their gun and aim through scope. Tell me you can sneak in these conditions.
Maybe some sort of "stationary sneak"... You know, snipers are usually "hidden" and you get shoot but you don't know from where.
All that just for realism, I don't think Sniper need another boost :)
Instead, since HtH need a serious boost, I think a working and good Sneak can help the situation.
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I made my sneaker because i wanted scout , but scout should fight too, or we will just have scout which will just use fast relog to another pvp char.
Well doctors heal people, repairmen fix stuff, scout scouts, fighter fights. If you can do some jobs at same time, well congratulations. If you cant dont blame system for working how it should.
Perks dont matter,you just want to make this ability for thieves and these kind of bastards which dont want craft anything, I wanna make another usefull skill for team PVP and make another kind of fighter.I know, you are loner and you dont do PVP but a lot of people plays this game for PVP so think on them too.
I dont imagine dude with minigun and hundred ammo clinging on his shoulder coming close to person who is watching "well who to shoot in here", neither i would find this feature fun in game if we wouldnt look in reality.
and who told you that? you had dream where Jesus told you that or its just your invention?just tell me some good reasons for that and without talking about how it works in real life . because this is online game.
fallout 1 and 2 told me that, this game is a copy of them after all.
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And what if there were perks added to to melee weapons? if HtH chars are supposed to be a countermeasure against snipers- give them knuckles, knives and other HtH weapons a perk that will make them invisible at...lets say...12hex range? When that sneaker comes closer, he will be seen by a bg and get wasted, but the sniper will have some difficulty shooting him becouse of the scope penality for close range. What do you think about that?
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won't matter too much since the snipers spend so many skillpoints into their combat skill that they will have a 95% to hit eyeshots at ANY range
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And what if there were perks added to to melee weapons? if HtH chars are supposed to be a countermeasure against snipers- give them knuckles, knives and other HtH weapons a perk that will make them invisible at...lets say...12hex range? When that sneaker comes closer, he will be seen by a bg and get wasted, but the sniper will have some difficulty shooting him becouse of the scope penality for close range. What do you think about that?
this scope penality works just for hunting rifle or not?
Well doctors heal people, repairmen fix stuff, scout scouts, fighter fights. If you can do some jobs at same time, well congratulations. If you cant dont blame system for working how it should.
Well doctors are unusable for PVP, repairmen too, only two classes which are usefull for pvp fights are scouts and fighters.and of course every good pvp build has tagged doctor and FA or repair(but from your theory they arent doctors and repairman,they are fighters with these skills) , because its usefull in fight but now there arent "Just" doctors usefull in pvp , no repairmens too, people have these skills on usefull price , but firstly they have weapon skill.I cant understand why you dont awnt there scouts which will be usefull more then just for scouting/fast reloging to fighter.
If we wanna here more usefull PVP professions like Medic we must remake FA system again, and of course make possible to use some weaker weapons for medics, and scouts too.
This system isnt best , i wanna see in fights medics in every team but first there must be something like profession with that you cant have big weapon skill and which gives you benefits for waiting time and how much HP you will heal, i mean if you will choose to be medic , you have to raise FA and doc to 200 and then HP healed will not depent too much on luck, waiting time will be smaller (like 30 sec?). and allow these medics to have some kind of weapon which are weaker , like grenades , small guns (smgs etc.) (that was example).
fallout 1 and 2 told me that, this game is a copy of them after all.
Fallout 1,2 are single player games , and rly good games but , there is too much diferencees between Fonline and fallouts that i dont see why is problem to make this diferently too.
this game must be balanced first must be build like mmo not like fallout, but of course fallout games are good start and template.
And now something about sneak, i tried sneak yesterday with my 297 sneaker and ,its bad now , i think its because of changes in FOV but you can be seen from front from 9PE char to 27 hexes (its too much and makes it unusable) but from other sides he saw me from 5 hexes so there is it ok , i think it will be good if it will be reworked on something about 15 hexes on 10PE char from front because now in battles you are everytime seen by somebody... and its bad if you spend so many points to that skill and it gives you just this...
But on the other side , there are no penalties, i wear Metal armor and there is no diference between hexes.So it makes sneak better (and still usefull for BG sneakers) so i think the best way to change it is to lower distance on which you are seen from front and give back penalties for armor wearing(its understandable that scout dont wear heavy armor)
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this scope penality works just for hunting rifle or not?
Scope penality work only for weapons that have... "Scope perk"
Scoped Hunting Rifle is the only one at this time, Sniper Rifle has "Long Range perk" (as in F1 & F2).
A no-sense, I agree.
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won't matter too much since the snipers spend so many skillpoints into their combat skill that they will have a 95% to hit eyeshots at ANY range
you still need 250% or more skill and like 9 pe to eyeshot at max range, and they have to be facing you.
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won't matter too much since the snipers spend so many skillpoints into their combat skill that they will have a 95% to hit eyeshots at ANY range
Well i guess your right there..
So changing the longrange and scoped perk would solve the problem, then? I know its a job around the problem, but it seems a solution to the current problem that does not change THAT much..
Prove me wrong :)
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Well i guess your right there..
So changing the longrange and scoped perk would solve the problem, then? I know its a job around the problem, but it seems a solution to the current problem that does not change THAT much..
Prove me wrong :)
snipers don't need nerfing, big gunners are effective up close and at long range, why should snipers be crippled in close range?
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i heartuly agree with roachor
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snipers don't need nerfing, big gunners are effective up close and at long range, why should snipers be crippled in close range?
Well snipers and big gunners are both dominating the pvp. Playing something that isn't big gunner or sniper doesn't provide very good results.