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[Lordus]

Sneak is good at the moment, but needs a real investment into that skill (300% etc.). I tested it a bit and I find it still useful in various situations. Of course no more looting by sneak ninjas just in the middle of a crowd, no more sneaking up to 3 hexes with biggunner (or well, maybe it's possible if someone is really good ). I like sneak as it is now, maybe it could use few little fixes but no serious stuff.

 i understand, but my genius ideas are reason why to make changes :DDD

[Sarakin]

Perhaps, sneak should work as a counter-measure against snipers in a well-known fantasy trio : fighter (big gunner) beats thief (sneaker), thief beats mage (sniper) and mage beats fighter. So sneakers could be effective against snipers but stand no chance against big gunner  .

[Lordus]

Perhaps, sneak should work as a counter-measure against snipers in a well-known fantasy trio : fighter (big gunner) beats thief (sneaker), thief beats mage (sniper) and mage beats fighter. So sneakers could be effective against snipers but stand no chance against big gunner  .

 Then i a want to be Spock

 I think that stone scissors paper is good way where to start balancing game classes, but how can sneaker could be counter measure against snipers, if snipers have the biggest perception and perception is reducing the sneaker invisibility cloak. In fact, sniper is counter measure for sneaker now.

[FischiPiSti]

http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Silent_Death .
Build around that one. 3 hex rule sucks. Minigunner sneaker sucks. Cannot be used in TB in any way sucks. Silent Weapons FTW. Bonus AC when sneaking FTW.

[Ombra]

Perhaps, sneak should work as a counter-measure against snipers in a well-known fantasy trio : fighter (big gunner) beats thief (sneaker), thief beats mage (sniper) and mage beats fighter. So sneakers could be effective against snipers but stand no chance against big gunner  .

I see you have great plans for HtH 

[Magor]

Then i a want to be Spock

 I think that stone scissors paper is good way where to start balancing game classes, but how can sneaker could be counter measure against snipers, if snipers have the biggest perception and perception is reducing the sneaker invisibility cloak. In fact, sniper is counter measure for sneaker now.

snipers are the best sacrifice for sneakers with grenades (which are the only weapons little usefull with sneak). they see you on more hexes from front but i think its easier to come to their back, and then you have no chance agaist bursters (they deal big dmg and wear good armors which have big protection agaist plasma) , but , when you come near sniper, he will loose his distance advantage, he cant shoot at you so much like bigguner, you have chance to alive more shoots and average sniper wears just weak armors so you deal big dmgs agaist them with grenades.

I think sneak is ok for now, i dont know if some of penalties works but its ok, i must test it more but it is usable ability if you reach it on 300.

and please dont reduce sneak ability during day, it will make it unusable.

[vedaras]

first of all sneak is combat avoiding skill not a bonus to you in combat. I would make sneak skill damn powerful for looters, thieves, scouts, and useless for those who handle any gun or armor (or maybe anything in inventory at all, so in this way looters, thieves will get detected once they loot, and in this way 3 hexes rule could be disabled (for 1 PE not ten of course )).

[Magor]

first of all sneak is combat avoiding skill not a bonus to you in combat. I would make sneak skill damn powerful for looters, thieves, scouts, and useless for those who handle any gun or armor (or maybe anything in inventory at all, so in this way looters, thieves will get detected once they loot, and in this way 3 hexes rule could be disabled (for 1 PE not ten of course )).

so you wanna make sneak ability usefull just for bastards which wanna loot (steal) items.and unusable for normal players.
you better want to turn this ability completely off.
Nobody, will have main character for stealing and looting stuff , nobody will want to have character which is usable just for staying in city and waiting for fight to loot items which he cant use because he dont have weapon skill, so as was said there befor.there will be a lot of alts with sneak which people will turn on just when they will see that somebody fights in town and he will go there and parasite on normal good people.

[avv]

Perhaps, sneak should work as a counter-measure against snipers in a well-known fantasy trio : fighter (big gunner) beats thief (sneaker), thief beats mage (sniper) and mage beats fighter. So sneakers could be effective against snipers but stand no chance against big gunner  .

Not bad idea, but it would make majority of small guns useless because if only class for small guns was sniper what to do with shotguns, smg, assault rifles and pistols?

[Ombra]

first of all sneak is combat avoiding skill not a bonus to you in combat. I would make sneak skill damn powerful for looters, thieves, scouts, and useless for those who handle any gun or armor (or maybe anything in inventory at all, so in this way looters, thieves will get detected once they loot, and in this way 3 hexes rule could be disabled (for 1 PE not ten of course )).

Usually, Sneak is ALSO a combat ability, like the already said Sneak Attack, the "hit from shadow", the surprise attack...
But should be HtH only. Or it makes a sense if is also usable by Snipers, but if you do so they need a nerf in something else (range or crits chance or damage...).

so you wanna make sneak ability usefull just for bastards which wanna loot (steal) items.and unusable for normal players.
you better want to turn this ability completely off.
Nobody, will have main character for stealing and looting stuff , nobody will want to have character which is usable just for staying in city and waiting for fight to loot items which he cant use because he dont have weapon skill, so as was said there befor.there will be a lot of alts with sneak which people will turn on just when they will see that somebody fights in town and he will go there and parasite on normal good people.

Why? Jackals and Scavenger definitely make a sense in a post-nuclear world.
And personally I respect more a Thief than a lvl 21 PK killing blusuits and workers...

[Lordus]

Ability against sneak is perception. Every sniper has very big perception (10, or less but perk). So sneaker as a counter sniper measure is totaly nonsense.

 What is the current situation? Every biggunner can sneak or what? Damn, why devs dont want to balance this game using their brains.. I think that we should made a real good suggestion about PvP combat, with players with brain and then hope the devs will find that there can exist role for 10 fighter class in the game, instead of 2 (Team Fortress 2)

[Magor]

Ability against sneak is perception. Every sniper has very big perception (10, or less but perk). So sneaker as a counter sniper measure is totaly nonsense.

 What is the current situation? Every biggunner can sneak or what? Damn, why devs dont want to balance this game using their brains.. I think that we should made a real good suggestion about PvP combat, with players with brain and then hope the devs will find that there can exist role for 10 fighter class in the game, instead of 2 (Team Fortress 2)

I think after they turned fov on there are less bursters/sneakers .Today i will test grenader/sneaker in pvp so i hope it will be usefull.
Now (but before i test it) i think sneak is good now, just need to add some penalties, idk if there are penalties for wearing armors and for stuff in inventory, These are needed.

Lordus just think about it, PE is that ability which helps you to detect sneaker earlier but i calculated that if you have 300 sneak , and opponent has 10 PE he can see you from 12 hexes from front (without penalties which idk if they are turned on).
And its good to throw grenades from something about 10 hexes so i think it is rly usefull if you use it agaist snipers and you are thrower...

I just need to test it because i dont thrust anything what is wroten in afterwipe changelog, so i will see.

[vedaras]

so you wanna make sneak ability usefull just for bastards which wanna loot (steal) items.and unusable for normal players.
you better want to turn this ability completely off.
Nobody, will have main character for stealing and looting stuff , nobody will want to have character which is usable just for staying in city and waiting for fight to loot items which he cant use because he dont have weapon skill, so as was said there befor.there will be a lot of alts with sneak which people will turn on just when they will see that somebody fights in town and he will go there and parasite on normal good people.

this ability is for that kinda bastards, watch perks like "thief" sneaking and stealing is very related. And you are very wrong, sneak scouts would be very useful for gangs, as they were when fov was turned off, sneak looters would be very useful for loners, who would want to grab this new lsw without any difficulty. And i will repeat myself by saying this is the way how this skill suppose to work in first place.

Usually, Sneak is ALSO a combat ability, like the already said Sneak Attack, the "hit from shadow", the surprise attack...
But should be HtH only. Or it makes a sense if is also usable by Snipers, but if you do so they need a nerf in something else (range or crits chance or damage...).

Yes i agree that sneak should be combat ability for HTH characters, while for those you really would need to sneak to your target.

And i am 100% against sneaking for snipers. Look how snipers snipe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsofAdHC5Wo&feature=related they lay down, deploy their gun and aim through scope. Tell me you can sneak in these conditions.

[avv]

Damn, why devs dont want to balance this game using their brains.. I think that we should made a real good suggestion about PvP combat, with players with brain and then hope the devs will find that there can exist role for 10 fighter class in the game, instead of 2 (Team Fortress 2)

Don't blame the devs on this one. The real reason is the lack of good feedback. Many of our "playtesters" don't give a damn about the testing part, many of them have no clue about good game balance. The real reason why devs haven't put real preissure on pvp development was the lack of good feedback. It's so far mostly been about going back and forth with big guns and snipers dominating. There's rarely any serious talk about more in-dept combat changes. For example crafting underwent some serious testing, we had all kinds of cooldowns and gathering methdos and now it's actually pretty good, due to good developing but hell, we players did our part by giving feedback.

[Magor]

this ability is for that kinda bastards, watch perks like "thief" sneaking and stealing is very related. And you are very wrong, sneak scouts would be very useful for gangs, as they were when fov was turned off, sneak looters would be very useful for loners, who would want to grab this new lsw without any difficulty.

I made my sneaker because i wanted scout , but scout should fight too, or we will just have scout which will just use fast relog to another pvp char.

Perks dont matter,you just want to make this ability for thieves and these kind of bastards which dont want craft anything, I wanna make another usefull skill for team PVP and make another kind of fighter.I know, you are loner and you dont do PVP but a lot of people plays this game for PVP so think on them too.

And i will repeat myself by saying this is the way how this skill suppose to work in first place.

and who told you that? you had dream where Jesus told you that or its just your invention?just tell me some good reasons for that and without talking about how it works in real life . because this is online game.