fodev.net
Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: O-chan on April 15, 2010, 08:28:18 am
-
There's a cool story first. I came to ncr and try to steal some shit from a random dude. Had no intention to get rich or other related bullshit. Just a tryout. So I failed and got mah ncr's rep drop by 800 pts. I lold srsly. Not that i give a fuck about my rep, i don't go to towns anyway, and my outdoorsman skill does it's trick, but it's kinda stupid. 800 rep equals to 16 shots at caravans as far as i remember. Being a crit master you can mutilate up to 5 caravans and get the same rep penalty.
So what does penalty depend on? The rep of the one you rob and/or the number of guards saw you robbing?
-
It's just that people constantly went (and still do) "WHAAAA?! I SAW HIM STEAL. YES I DID. WHY CAN'T I KILL HIM!!!!!!!!!??!?!!!!!1" so devs gave up. It's an RPG for fuck's sake. If your char didn't spot the thief via game mechanics then you should act as if you didn't as well.
-
Lol, the fact is I was actually spotted, but a 800 rep loss is kinda shitty. That actually makes GrandTheftCrap proffesion obsolete.
-
You were spotted, I know. That's because you need 200+ to steal anything. And if you are successful, you get only -200 rep :D
-
you need 150% steal and 300% sneak, thats all...
-
I got -3000 reputation once for trying to steal an old, rusty lock :P AFAIK so big reputation penalties is a bug.
-
Please, don't change the game to make it easier ... It's enough too easy with new craft and a lot of things for noob ... They have to learn the game by them selv, if they it's too hard, that's not, they are too lazy !
Fallout is game in chaos world ... Their's no place for the loosers.
-
I don't agree that stealing failure should cost you less rep. points.
But I think there shouldn't be decrease of reputation when you success.
-
maybe have a fixed -150 rep f you fail, and a -10 rep if you succeed, even though i'd prefer if there would be more like this:
+20exp -0 rep
-
There can't be minus for success... lmao, that destroys thief profession.
-
there IS no thief proffesion any longer
-
lol, why not? Becouse people like you are too scared to lose their stuff while staying and doing nothing in NCR? It's wasteland - there is not rule and no place for losers
-
i'm not scared of losing my shit, in fact i had a thiefalt, once upon a time, just for the kicks of seeing someone scream, HE STOLE MY MINIGUN; KILLZ HIM
-
Can Devs say their opinion about "thief profession"? It would be nice to know if you will do it or not.
-
It's just that people constantly went (and still do) "WHAAAA?! I SAW HIM STEAL. YES I DID. WHY CAN'T I KILL HIM!!!!!!!!!??!?!!!!!1" so devs gave up. It's an RPG for fuck's sake. If your char didn't spot the thief via game mechanics then you should act as if you didn't as well.
Well then, let's just all make PE10 chars and nobody is never able to steal anything. Thieves must indeed be caught by players themselves. Even steal 15 dude should be allowed to steal if he knows how to do it and his victim is dumb. Besides, it's not rpg, but mmo. In rpg you fight against npc who see and know everything so that you need percentages to fight against them properly. Against players you must use you own mind.
-
yeah current reputation drops for stealing is total crap. I stole 4 stimpacks and i was successful but i still lost 2k reputation in ncr, and because of that guards killed me. So now both successful and unsuccessful stealing attempts are turned into unsuccessful. And as it was mentioned before bursting someone from 1 hex and making him lose all his stuff is -100 reputation drop, suiciding into a crowd and making them lose all shit is -50 reputation drop, and for stealing one shitty item you are ruined.
-
Stealing is a mess, for PVP stealing - if its too good then you essentially stop people being able from trading for extended periods or talking to important NPCs. It, like lockpicking, is a destructive skill, in that it destroys features by allowing players to grief directly onto other players.
I'd prefer too harsh rep drops over guarded cities becoming rife with thieves.
The natural place for these skills is against NPCs, which would require quests/PvE stuff, but these things take time.
-
Stealing is a mess, for PVP stealing - if its too good then you essentially stop people being able from trading for extended periods or talking to important NPCs. It, like lockpicking, is a destructive skill, in that it destroys features by allowing players to grief directly onto other players.
I'd prefer too harsh rep drops over guarded cities becoming rife with thieves.
The natural place for these skills is against NPCs, which would require quests/PvE stuff, but these things take time.
people can hold their important items in hand. People can move when they see someone is stealing from them. They already have many ways to defend from thieves, and this reputation drop is just shit :<
-
people can hold their important items in hand. People can move when they see someone is stealing from them. They already have many ways to defend from thieves, and this reputation drop is just shit :<
Totally agree, where is the climat of wastelands in which you get punished for successed (= not being seen by anybody) cause reputation drop?
Maybe make also checking if someone got dynamite in eq and kill him instantly or kill people who says vulgarisms... for God's sake - its not Hello Kitty...
Now gaming looks that: you got two options, exp on mobs (still same exp? Woot the fock?) or stay whole day in workbench crafting useless items and later go to kill everything moving.
Where is climat of postapocaliptic world the fock?
-
it is a post apocalyptic utopia, where all who carry a good gun are rich as hell.
-
Utopia? I think you dunno meaning of this word. Are in utopia things like Enclave, raiders, "The Glow" or people killing one another?
-
people can hold their important items in hand. People can move when they see someone is stealing from them. They already have many ways to defend from thieves, and this reputation drop is just shit :<
To sell an item you first have to have it in your inventory - then you have to wait until noone is anywhere near you to sell it. If anyone comes anywhere near you you then have to cancel and run away. Impractical.
To do a quest, you are reading text, you must go through several pages of text in sequence to solve this quest. You must interrupt each time someone comes anywhere near you, run away and then start all over again. Impractical.
Feature destroyer.
Stealing is low risk, high reward and in guarded cities there is nothing the victim can do but keep moving, which is increadibly inconvienient. The point of guarded cities is not to allow players to strip all items off players.
-
Anyway, nowadays that system sucks and not only I think that
-
where do you expect to be stripsearched by a thief then, in them wastelands, eh? The thieves in the wasteland are known as PKs who literally strip you inside out.
-
Anyway, nowadays that system sucks and not only I think that
You're right. But only making it so that you just need to walk next to someone and use high steal% on him, it will just make more people mad than right now.
You have to realize that methods to fool npcs cannot be used to fool players. When you compete against players, you don't compete against their characters but the players' skills to manipulate their characters' abilities.
-
where do you expect to be stripsearched by a thief then, in them wastelands, eh? The thieves in the wasteland are known as PKs who literally strip you inside out.
The natural place for these skills is against NPCs, which would require quests/PvE stuff, but these things take time.
-
Well then, let's just all make PE10 chars and nobody is never able to steal anything. Thieves must indeed be caught by players themselves. Even steal 15 dude should be allowed to steal if he knows how to do it and his victim is dumb. Besides, it's not rpg, but mmo. In rpg you fight against npc who see and know everything so that you need percentages to fight against them properly. Against players you must use you own mind.
Dude you seriously dont't have a clue what an rpg is!
You have to realize that methods to fool npcs cannot be used to fool players. When you compete against players, you don't compete against their characters but the players' skills to manipulate their characters' abilities.
You have to realize that A role-playing game is a games in which players take a roles of characters in a fictional setting. Actions taken within the game succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. So by all means Fonline is an mmorpg and imo should be brought closer to the rpg than mmo.
This is fallout no Hello kitty!
Imo stealth system needs an overhaul but not so that it doesn't need a skill "steal". Skills are the soul and heart of Fallout games, and to achieve what you want needs a proper skill level. This game should be by all means character dependant with a player skill twist. Which only refers to common sense.
-
When you say you can have your important things in hand it's a bit wrong.
Exemple you can't have 2 weapon in hand when in NCR for exemple or you get shot by guards.
When you want to do advanced crafts you can't have your tool, your book and valuable things in hand.
The issue is stealing in Fo was not meant to be PVP and there was some things to rethink. And i'm pretty sure making stats useless under 100% and imba over 150 is another mistake and don't serve the game anyhow.
The repairing system suffer the same lack, you have 60% in repair, you can craft a Desert Eagle or a leather armor MK2 but if you try to repair it, you have 99,99% to cut his lifetime by 25%.
The actual system is too oriented powerbuilds and make frustrations on both side. Guys say "it's too hard to be good so let us lame when we are" like we see with thiefs, but it's the same with snipers and HtH.
I don't think encouraging builds based on screwind the other players will do something positive cause having something with no spare is not making the game hard or interresting, it's pretty the opposite in fact.
I mean if you can't do anything to interract with a situation or can't beat a kind of ennemi no matter what you try, i don't call it (role playing) game but simply a kind of TV :/
Someone said on uppoer post we are in MMO, right, it's players in front of you, not bots. So don't forget certain rules when you speak, others are not shit, they are equals to you, we are not in wastelands, it's only our characters who are, fairplay is not an option in community games.
-
To sell an item you first have to have it in your inventory - then you have to wait until noone is anywhere near you to sell it. If anyone comes anywhere near you you then have to cancel and run away. Impractical.
To do a quest, you are reading text, you must go through several pages of text in sequence to solve this quest. You must interrupt each time someone comes anywhere near you, run away and then start all over again. Impractical.
Feature destroyer.
Stealing is low risk, high reward and in guarded cities there is nothing the victim can do but keep moving, which is increadibly inconvienient. The point of guarded cities is not to allow players to strip all items off players.
Yeah with vendors, you come to trade, someone tries to steal, you move a little and trade since thief is on cd.
noone steals in northern towns, and quests are kidna shitty in item reward in safe towns, so i do not agree about stealing in quests.
And no stealing is 100% risk (since you will always lose huge amounts of reputation no matter what will be stealing result) and no reward job (since even if you will steal something successfully you will be owned by guards). And is i said before, people can hold items in hands none stands in ncr with 30 ba 5 minuguns 1000 bullets and 50k caps in inventory. And i still see many ways to solve problem, make bigger cooldown for example, stealing with cooldown depending on skill, like former doctor skill, where you could reach something like 200 seconds cooldown with best skill. Then people wouldnt need to keep running from thieves. And its just one example how thievery problem could be easily solved.
-
Imo the whole cooldown system of this game totally bollocks. Cooldown for mining? WTF? Cooldown for Crafting?? Make cooldown for shootin then aswell so it makes PK's life harder lol :D
-
You have to realize that A role-playing game is a games in which players take a roles of characters in a fictional setting. Actions taken within the game succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. So by all means Fonline is an mmorpg and imo should be brought closer to the rpg than mmo.
You play the role of thief but it still doesn't have to mean that the character does all the thinking for you. You succeed if you outsmart your victim, not when your character outsmarts your victim's character. It's the basic of every succesful multiplayer game that more skilled player defeats less skilled player. It shouldn't be surprising at all.
Imo stealth system needs an overhaul but not so that it doesn't need a skill "steal". Skills are the soul and heart of Fallout games, and to achieve what you want needs a proper skill level. This game should be by all means character dependant with a player skill twist. Which only refers to common sense.
High skill levels deciding how succesful you are promote only powerbuilds. It takes about 500 skillpoints to cap a tagged skill. Skills are heart and soul of fallout because they were needed when competing against npc enemies. So by your logic if skills directly measured the effectiveness of a player's char, you could buy and sell items for higher or lower price when bartering with other players. Let's say you want to buy a 10mm pistol and someone asks you to buy 200 for it. But you happen to have low barter and he has high so you end up paying 10k caps for it. That's not even the end of it, someone with ch10, speech 300 and all speech related perks comes to you, says few words and makes you kill yourself because he's so good at convincing that life sucks. This is what happens when player's effectiveness is based purely on skill%.
If you want player skill twist to take place, then skill% cannot have major role in success, they would only decide what you can do, not how well.
-
+1 for idea to make pvp harder. Maybe not that way, but if crafting/mining/healing has cooldown why attacking hasn't?
-
Thief is an hard work :)
I don't have a thief alt, but I agree: the current kill-reputation system is completely senseless. Reduce it.
-
There was cooldown in Fo2 too you only don't have the figures.
Anyway some cooldown are a bit too long yeah and some are a bit ridiculous (when you loot junks or flowers on the ground :/)
shooting have a cooldown too, it's your APs ... So ... cooldown are not stupid, they only need some tweaks like many other things.
Maybe cooldown depending on skills would be great, having high Str/End reduce time for mining. As an exemple.
Put a big cooldown on repair but make that you can use the skill with less than 200 % :/ and diminish the cooldown when you have more than 120% etc
If a bit of cooldown on thief offer an alt to the reputation why not? Not sure it will solve the whome problem but it could be a start.
And if there is one way to make thief have a brain when doing thievery, better than saying you insanities cause you can't do nothing against... i would be the first happy about a lower requirement for them too, cause it would be really fair, and more what some guys call role play.
A thief stealing you and saying "suck my dick" right in front of guard is something that bugs me. Where is the role here?
-
Yeah with vendors, you come to trade, someone tries to steal, you move a little and trade since thief is on cd.
noone steals in northern towns, and quests are kidna shitty in item reward in safe towns, so i do not agree about stealing in quests.
And no stealing is 100% risk (since you will always lose huge amounts of reputation no matter what will be stealing result) and no reward job (since even if you will steal something successfully you will be owned by guards). And is i said before, people can hold items in hands none stands in ncr with 30 ba 5 minuguns 1000 bullets and 50k caps in inventory. And i still see many ways to solve problem, make bigger cooldown for example, stealing with cooldown depending on skill, like former doctor skill, where you could reach something like 200 seconds cooldown with best skill. Then people wouldnt need to keep running from thieves. And its just one example how thievery problem could be easily solved.
Got to agree with this one. But I still think that 30-60 sec for 1 steal is just enough and imho cooldown should not exceed this scale. Anyway I'll once again remind myself with http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=2860.0 (few changes done) =>
- stealing should be weight/size based so small items like caps or ammo should be easy to steal
- Pickpocket perk should get really nerfed = without it you can steal only smaller stuff (caps/ammo...) and with it big stuff will be still risky even with higher skill (when you want something like CA or rifles then you have to risk getting caught)
- reputation should not decrease when you steal successfully
- reputation should decrease not per item stolen but only per unsuccessfu AND noticed steal
- reputation drop per noticed steal should not cross -100/200 reputation points and this number should decrease with higher CH/speach/steal/sneak skill (just pick one or combine them). I mean it should be possible to "talk your way out of it" even when you get caught. You would still be punished (= flagged and killed) and you would loose reputation just not that much (some -100 to -30 points depending on your speech or something like that).
- stealing should be boosted by sneaking since more "invisible" you are for your victims lesser the chance they will notice
So eventually when you steal, you risk and you risk even more when you try to steal something big and valuable. But in the end you should be able to steal smaller stuff without any problems but when you get caught you still risk getting killed by player or flagged by guard = karma drop. So when you steal too much without keeping an eye on your karma you will soon be disliked at that area making it even more risky to walk around there. But when you are really pro thief some smaller robberies should not be any problem for you if players themselves are not cautious enough to spot you.
-
Actually sneak is useless with steal for the reason if someone see you steal but you are unoticed it change nothing.
But personnaly when i'm stolen by someone sneaking i don't notice anything, me the player and i don't check my inventory.
If there is a report system, you check your inventory, you see something missing you report the thievery, sneaking will be a really good help.
-
You play the role of thief but it still doesn't have to mean that the character does all the thinking for you. You succeed if you outsmart your victim, not when your character outsmarts your victim's character. It's the basic of every succesful multiplayer game that more skilled player defeats less skilled player. It shouldn't be surprising at all.
I can't really agree with you that making fonline a game like counterstrike would be a good thing. Basicly your argument is equal to zero, becouse you are suggesting that game should measure players skill. You want to rehaul the whole combat system? Right now it's all about charcter skill, it doesn't involve any player related skill other than moving around. The shooting itself isn't measured by players skill. Why should steal? And most of all, you need to think about the game engine and whats possible to do with it.
Don't take everything literally and you should try to widen your field of view becouse seems like you are walking eyes closed. This is fallout we are talking about, no counter-strike!
Maybe cooldown depending on skills would be great, having high Str/End reduce time for mining. As an exemple.
Put a big cooldown on repair but make that you can use the skill with less than 200 % :/ and diminish the cooldown when you have more than 120% etc
Yeah I agree on that totally it would make sense.
-
Now after wipe thief sucks, i have thief account-steal over 200, go to ncr, steal from one random guy 3 rippers and my reputation -4300, that totally sucks :o
-
Now after wipe thief sucks, i have thief account-steal over 200, go to ncr, steal from one random guy 3 rippers and my reputation -4300, that totally sucks :o
Its well known and devs want to change it. The point is how do they change it...
-
Its well known and devs want to change it. The point is how do they change it...
To sell an item you first have to have it in your inventory - then you have to wait until noone is anywhere near you to sell it. If anyone comes anywhere near you you then have to cancel and run away. Impractical.
To do a quest, you are reading text, you must go through several pages of text in sequence to solve this quest. You must interrupt each time someone comes anywhere near you, run away and then start all over again. Impractical.
Feature destroyer.
Stealing is low risk, high reward and in guarded cities there is nothing the victim can do but keep moving, which is increadibly inconvienient. The point of guarded cities is not to allow players to strip all items off players.
Are you sure devs want change it...? ::)
-
Stealing is low risk, high reward and in guarded cities there is nothing the victim can do but keep moving, which is increadibly inconvienient. The point of guarded cities is not to allow players to strip all items off players.
If your not in a guarded city how are they supposed to steal? You get shot 23 times first.
Again, a skill is beeing nerfed to the point that its useless, but players that dont read wiki, dont read forums, arent on irc are going to realize that they made a useless character when they allready leveled it up and lost hours/days of gameplay for nothing.
So much effort is beeing put to nerf skills, but it would so much more easyer for devs and players, to just disable the skill alltogether like the sex appeal trait, then this. Like you did with TB FA as a temporary solution untill you find one that good for thiefs and its victims.
In another thread i had an idea, what about this:
How about: Guards will allways see if someone steals, but do nothing unless he succeeds. If they fail, the players can kill them. IF they succeed, he gets a thief "tag", but not the old one. The new thief tag does not let players attack the thief, hower, guards intercept UNARMED(or with http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/Club XD), and chase the thief out of the city shouting "STOP! THIEF!" He loses karma(but only to a certain minimum,like -1200), and when the thief has negativ karma that would otherwise result in instant death, they would rather chase him unarmed the second he steps in the city. He could sneak however, but high enough sneak+steal? Impossible. If the thief attacks anybody in the city, the thief tag is erased, thus guards kill him instantly.
- stealing should be weight/size based so small items like caps or ammo should be easy to steal
500.000 caps / steal? :S
How about if stealing would be skill dependant. You have 100 skill, you can steal a rope, because its worth 100 caps. Or you can steal 100 caps / steal. But with every attempt, you have the chance to be unsuccessful and lose karma :O
-
I can't really agree with you that making fonline a game like counterstrike would be a good thing. Basicly your argument is equal to zero, becouse you are suggesting that game should measure players skill. You want to rehaul the whole combat system? Right now it's all about charcter skill, it doesn't involve any player related skill other than moving around. The shooting itself isn't measured by players skill. Why should steal? And most of all, you need to think about the game engine and whats possible to do with it.
Don't take everything literally and you should try to widen your field of view becouse seems like you are walking eyes closed. This is fallout we are talking about, no counter-strike!
Basically every succesful mmo game is based on players competing against each other, the game mechanics being their tools to victory. It's not only fps games, but also strategy games like starcraft and mmorpg games like wow. The stealing is currently partially skill based because you have to try get a victim that doesn't move around, trying to guess who's not going to move for a while takes skill but only a little. In pvp you have to understand to position and move your character smartly, even though pvp isn't enough skill related yet, it doesn't mean steal shouldn't be.
Besides, by skill I don't mean reflexes and aim, but understanding of game mechanics and trying to predict enemy's actions. This kind of skill can and should be included in fonline more, because it keeps players playing when they notice that their plans start to work and gaming experience is paying off. Otherwise it's just moving your character around and putting it into differend situations and just watching how it fares.
If 300 steal indeed meant that you could steal any item from anyone without much of a risk, people would flee from big cities and wouldn't come there unless with PE10. If players cannot counter something with skill, they counter it with another character. This kind of evolution is always seen in fonline when some build becomes dominant.
-
I think that people are looking at this issue from the wrong viewpoint. People are thinking "what will make my gaming life better and easier" rather than "what would actually happen."
Yes, the wasteland is harsh. But guarded cities on the wasteland do not = the wasteland. If you get caught stealing in one of these cities you should be shot and set to a ridiculous reputation (like -4000) or something to them. If the people living in the town were real they wouldn't just forgive you and let you back in after a few days. They don't have the jailing capabilities or ability to "fine" you. You should just die for your crimes. You should also get a lesser reputation hit at all other "guarded" cities (maybe -100 or so), because, after all, caravans/traders/guards should "talk" to one another to share news.
However, if you get a successful steal, nothing bad should happen to you. A successful steal means that you're able to take something from someone else without anyone noticing. If no one notices, no penalty! Like in real life, you should be wary of thieves if you're in a crowded market or on a busy subway. If someone manages to steal your wallet and no one notices, well then tough shit for you.
-
I think that people are looking at this issue from the wrong viewpoint. People are thinking "what will make my gaming life better and easier" rather than "what would actually happen."
Yes, the wasteland is harsh. But guarded cities on the wasteland do not = the wasteland. If you get caught stealing in one of these cities you should be shot and set to a ridiculous reputation (like -4000) or something to them. If the people living in the town were real they wouldn't just forgive you and let you back in after a few days. They don't have the jailing capabilities or ability to "fine" you. You should just die for your crimes. You should also get a lesser reputation hit at all other "guarded" cities (maybe -100 or so), because, after all, caravans/traders/guards should "talk" to one another to share news.
However, if you get a successful steal, nothing bad should happen to you. A successful steal means that you're able to take something from someone else without anyone noticing. If no one notices, no penalty! Like in real life, you should be wary of thieves if you're in a crowded market or on a busy subway. If someone manages to steal your wallet and no one notices, well then tough shit for you.
This guy has 0% speech, don't listen to him!
Ok now seriously. First of all that "if this was real" is the worst argument ever used to backup your game development suggestions (and I used it too and I feel that eternal pain awaits me for that). Its nice if game copy reality but only there where it serves as a feature that brings fun and opportunities. If it should work as some of you want then we should be making suggestions for "Second Life: The Wasteland" edition and not FOnline. If this was like a real wasteland most people would give a shit about others being robbed even in "guarded" cities. And how the hell they should share such info with other factions? And why on Earth would other factions give a shit about some guy that tried to steal something in city that is half continent away from them? Mainly if this was like a real wasteland you would not respawn and thats it for this "argument".
If game features some skills and abilities then I suppose they are there to be used by players that desire it. And I'm pretty sure that devs are aware of that current stealing is useless. So I think its just a matter of time until we will find some steal boosting changelog.
-
If it should work as some of you want then we should be making suggestions for "Second Life: The Wasteland" edition and not FOnline
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ct6csLNpmgM
-
At first I want to share a story.
Long time ago ... ( about 1-2 wipes ago )
I've been making some shopping in hub. I actually wanted to sell some weapons so I went to south of hub and started trading. Everything was perfect - merchant had some caps, he gave me a good price ... and then I see weapons disappearing from my backpack ( actually from trade window ). So I turned back thinking "What the hell?" and I saw some stranger running out of shop. I started to chase him, ignoring everything else. He went to a hotel where he had room reserved. He entered room and then locked himself. I was really furious ... shouted to him to come out ... so I won't hurt him when he gives my stuff back etc. nothing worked - he just laughed ... so I asked some of my mates if they know a good lockpicker - luckily one of them was a thief/burglar so I gathered a party behind his door - all of them ready for execution - lockpicker arrived and opened the door ... I don't have to tell you end of this story ... but this was fucking most satisfying thing that happened to me in fonline.
Yes ... vengance is sweetest thing.
I always was concerned about details, RP, plot in all games ... actually only games I really enjoyed were cRPGs. So I find that these little things like stealing really needed despite it makes people mad/angry/furious when they get robbed. After that particular situation nobody ever succesfully stealed from me - because I was really paranoid when I had lot's of caps with me - trading only with window at top - while seeing my character - running away when someone entered shop etc ... then flags were introduced so it was even easier - because if someone really managed to steal from me - he got bullet between his eyes. So it depended on player's perception and caution if he got robbed or not and I believe that should stay that way. Of course many people were robbed and discussion started upon forums ... present situation is result of these negotiations ... which is really really bad - making game easier ( step towards casual players ) doesn't mean making game better.
PS: And I personally dislike such solutions. Similar is guards with 5000hp etc. there is always a better way than pure power/strenght solutions. This is field for roleplayers to fill ( with help from gm's ) - for example instead of spawning 10 more guards just make a NPC who survived massacre who will tell everybody what happened - make a prize for killing those vigilants, or if junktown got raided - they sent help for BOS so if one of their patrols spot them they'll execute them, make whole wasteland know that people responsible for massacre would be punished - make THEIR karma -5000 at all except of raiders INSTEAD of making little robbers karma -4000 after taking few caps.
PS2: I've never had thief and never wanted to play as one, but I realise that even if I got robbed - fonline will be more interesting game to play ( even if somebody plays as a crafter/trader etc. )
-
Wrong Viewpoint? lol
The only real viewpoint for a game is making it balanced, fun and if possible hve diversity allowing to play many different ways because it's your style not because it's the only way to success.
Fallout2 was the perfect exemple for monoplayer.
Now Fallout2 is the same as realty? don't think so.
For stealing, the fact is not making it easier or harder it's to make it more interresting and balanced were you are not face to situation you have simply no option.
You can't steal if you have not at least 200% cause it would screw completly the game if you can steal with 100% and the actual though is almost no one will play Thief cause of this. I can't understand guys who find this good. On the other hand 200% stealing and you can do what you want no one can do anything against you, and again, be cautious is not enough, moving do not interrupt thief and so you simply stop speaking to NPC, crafting or else cause you have no option.
-
I completely agree with everything Neuromancer just said.It used to be a part of the world and I miss players like Lutik and Jasin even if they were annoying as hell.If a player cant be bothered to pay attention to his surroundings then he is responsible for what he lost almost as much as the thief who took it.Receiving negetive karma for a succussfull theft is also strange because if its successfull then how the hell does anyone know about it?I can kill and murder players all day long and suffer little for it but taking a few stims will ruin a man?We talk about lack of variety in the wastelands characters and I think this is a good example of something we should add back into it the world for a little extra flavor.
For the record Ive never had nor will I ever have a thief character because I despise them and will always kill one whenever I have the chance.
-
Generally speaking - forcing people not to steal or raiding towns makes game flat. Those situations ( stealing, raiding etc. ) are some kind of player involved, self inducting events - which shouldn't stay unpunished but should be allowed. Please keep in mind when developing - make this game more complex not flat.
-
This guy has 0% speech, don't listen to him!
Ok now seriously. First of all that "if this was real" is the worst argument ever used to backup your game development suggestions (and I used it too and I feel that eternal pain awaits me for that). Its nice if game copy reality but only there where it serves as a feature that brings fun and opportunities. If it should work as some of you want then we should be making suggestions for "Second Life: The Wasteland" edition and not FOnline. If this was like a real wasteland most people would give a shit about others being robbed even in "guarded" cities. And how the hell they should share such info with other factions? And why on Earth would other factions give a shit about some guy that tried to steal something in city that is half continent away from them? Mainly if this was like a real wasteland you would not respawn and thats it for this "argument".
If game features some skills and abilities then I suppose they are there to be used by players that desire it. And I'm pretty sure that devs are aware of that current stealing is useless. So I think its just a matter of time until we will find some steal boosting changelog.
Alright, just because I tried to use a "real life" example doesn't make the statement untrue. No, I'm not trying to make this a Second Life clone. Where there are cities with laws, the people (or at least the guards) should give a shit about someone not following the rules. And they should share info with other factions the exact way I said so in my post. Obviously caravans and traders travel from city to city and patrols must overlap sometimes.
You're also wrong on your Fallout lore on a couple areas on your post. Fallout 1/2 took place within the state of California, so nowhere on the whole map is "half continent away" from anywhere else. Factions would give a shit about helping out eachother when they depend on eachother for survival in terms of trading for goods that they can't product themselves. As the world is pretty small news would travel fast, especially with working radios and constant travelers. Also, according to the lore of 2238 there are the resurrection hubs which end up bringing us back. So no, not everything has to be exactly realistic, but it would be stupid to ignore a good idea just because it would have relevance in the real world.
-
Wrong Viewpoint? lol
The only real viewpoint for a game is making it balanced, fun and if possible hve diversity allowing to play many different ways because it's your style not because it's the only way to success.
By "wrong viewpoint", I mean that things are being changed just because people perceive them to be unfair or imbalanced. However, these quick fixes have a tendency to make a skill go from overpowered to useless. All I wanted was to show an argument that made sense, didn't gimp the steal skill, and allowed for a fairer gameplay.
People could choose to take risks with stealing and either have no penalty when succeeding or a great penalty when failing. This would leave stealing a viable "career" but still keep the general public relatively safe, as if the thief fails even once he has to avoid that city for a long time until the npcs forget about his crime.
-
By "wrong viewpoint", I mean that things are being changed just because people perceive them to be unfair or imbalanced. However, these quick fixes have a tendency to make a skill go from overpowered to useless. All I wanted was to show an argument that made sense, didn't gimp the steal skill, and allowed for a fairer gameplay.
People could choose to take risks with stealing and either have no penalty when succeeding or a great penalty when failing. This would leave stealing a viable "career" but still keep the general public relatively safe, as if the thief fails even once he has to avoid that city for a long time until the npcs forget about his crime.
Yeah but how often do you get lucky enough to steal something valuable so you can live without stealing for days? I mean people don't wear CA in inventory and same goes for caps or weapons and I'm not talking about shitload of skill % and perks that you have to sacrifice in order to be successful. And also you can always fail at small robberies too and getting banished for 1 week (currently with -4k reputation for like 5 items its more like a month than a week) is just not something you could as a thief suffer. Also the problem is you can steal only in NCR since people are paranoid everywhere else.
-
Well sure you wouldn't likely get something great all that often, but that's part of the game. How often do you find combat armours laying around in random encounters? And you sure as hell are in risk of dying in those. A game mechanic being fair doesn't mean the game should be made easy.
-
Also the problem is you can steal only in NCR since people are paranoid everywhere else.
All is tie together. People are paranoid everywhere cause wastelands are safer than town cause of bombing, PKs, thief. I'm in this case i'm paranoide the only area i'm a bit home is my tent, i think it's pretty a nonsense.
I never go in NRC too cause there is too much people you can't check everyone.
And in encounters what i really fear is another player joinning :/
The start point is situation where you can do nothing. Attacks you have no chance even the weaker to fight back, thiefs you can't attack the list is really long, what goes around comes around.
The fact is if everyone agree this is getting wrong, devs will have to start changing things somewhere, but noone will ever accepte to loose their little avantages even on a short perdiode time all come in order.
It s a fact on running games you can't really make something else than quick fixe or everyone cry about it :/
The only way would be to make a place to think about all things going wrong and posting what will be the outcome so no one would cry before all is ok.
-
Well sure you wouldn't likely get something great all that often, but that's part of the game. How often do you find combat armours laying around in random encounters? And you sure as hell are in risk of dying in those. A game mechanic being fair doesn't mean the game should be made easy.
Making ANY game aspect based on waiting is just ridiculous no matter what you say about it. It already gets boring if wait time is counted in minutes or hours but days and weeks? What am I supposed to do in meantime? Steal stuff from Lone wanderer encounters? Remember even if the thieves would be overpowered as hell such as 1 steal = empty inventory no matter what, then you can't do it endlessly. Namecolorizing will make your char useless in less then a weak even if there is 0 reputation drop. Until there is something like disguise and such stealing will be always short term profession. Just look at this topic. People already remember some well known kleptomaniacs. We can defend our property but we are lazy - its more comfortable without the need of looking after our stuff so why not make it that way right?
I think that thieves are way too nerfed when it comes to active playing for the whole season. Even without reputation drops you can pretty much steal only in NCR, you can get always shot and loose everything and you can get marked right away someone sees you with hands aimed towards someone else's back. Some serious boosts AND nerfs should be considered here. As for boosts its mainly reducing reputation drop to reasonable and revertible counts and also possibility not to perform stealing animation from certain skill upwards. Like from 110% and above you would get 0.5% chance not to trigger stealing animation per skillpoint raised. So 110 skill=0% chance not to trigger animation, 150=20% chance to avoid animation, 200=45%, 250=70%, 300=95%.
And as for the nerfs: Steal skill should determine what we can steal and also how much we can steal. So with higher skill we should be able to steal bigger/heavier stuff and in greater amounts. Right now its just check, if you succeed then it does not matter if you are taking 1 or 10 minerals same goes fo 5 or 50 000 caps. So imho 300 skill should be considered as an ultimate point where you can steal anything "regular" with no restrictions in amounts what so ever. And from this point downwards amount and stealing possibilities should decay in reasonable rate. Some of you might say how do you want to steal 50k caps or 2k ammo from inventory but I believe if it can be placed into inventory in such amounts then it can be stolen from there. Also i used word "regular" back there. It because of Pickpocket perk. Right now perk is a must for any decent thief. Without it even desert eagle will be problem for you. But I think our ability to steal such small things like pistols/ammo/caps/drugs and such should depend also on skill and perk would only add possibility to steal bigger and more expensive stuff.
So I think combos could be like this:
Small skill (around 140%) without pickpocket perk = small time robber, easy to get caught if he reaches out for something more than 300 caps or pack of stimpacks.
Small skill with pickpocket perk = more dangerous one, small or mid sized items are not such a problem here but amounts will not get sky high.
High skill (220% and more) without pickpocket perk= can take pretty much anything from 10mm pistol to leather armor or high amounts of caps or ammo. But he will succeed in like 1 out of 2 tries when it comes down to shotguns, rifles, metal and better armors or anything larger (larger and more expensive thing=lesser chance to steal it).
High skill with pickpocket perk = you won't even notice, possibility to steal small or mid sized items with no problems, amount is not an issue here, big and expensive gear stealing chance is somewhere around 2 successful tries out of 3.
300 skill with pickpocket = where is your blue suit?
Also I've suggested that sneaking should affect stealing too so numbers would alter a lot if something like this should be considered but I think you got the idea.
-
Im with you on almost all points except no animation for stealing.Go back to NMA and look up the posts made by Jassin about all the things he stole.A good thief is successful enough without making it so we cant see him.
-
how about instead of losing a shit load of rep why not have to spend time in JAIL ?! time a crafting countdown but you still get to access the town to a certain extent... its more RPGish ....
-
Jail? Disguise? Hmm... I smell another brainstorm approaching..
What if... There was a command(as WIP, like: '~namechange name') to change your name temporarily. Name = appearance(imagination, rp stuff.), like in the hitman games, or the spy class from team fortress 2. The higher the steal skill, the more time you could be your alterego. Like 1 steal skill =1 second(useless). 300 steal = 300 seconds. Add a high CD ofc, and cannot be done while beeing seen->high sneak.
Effects: Picked name colored from namecolorizing for that period. Neutral NPCs(like guards) would ignore you for that period. The thief can go into low rep towns this way, for a maximum of 300 seconds, to well..steal stuff, before he is discovered and hunted down. zOMG just think of teh possibilitys PvP wise, teh chaos :O Factions need a password because nobody could be trusted. With high sneak, it would mean the perfect scout.
As for jailing: Based on the idea i brought up a few posts ago, when guards chase the thief unarmed shouting stop thief, if they catch and kill them, they would respawn in a jail area.
Whaddayathink?
I should have been a game designer.. XD
-
Whaddayathink?
Skill% determining cooldown instead of pure success rate sounds much more feasible in this case.
-
There is a pattern here: hardcore games like this start out great, but then the devs start listening to suggestions like, "Oh just put a little bit more restriction on PVP", or "Oh, just give us a little more of a tutorial", or "Just make thieving a little bit harder, just this once".
"Dumbing down" comes in small bite-sized pieces, that don't seem to harm anything at first, then 5 years later you realize your game has morphed into care-bear land, and the excitement is gone. Remember how you boil a frog alive? Try to throw it in boiling water and it will jump out. Turn up the heat slowly, degree by degree, and the frog will never notice until its dead.
That's ... about stealing ... about nerfing big guns ... about sneaking ... about ... first aid etc. etc. etc. ...