fodev.net
Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Retrogator on April 14, 2010, 01:53:49 am
-
Here are my two cents on shotguns.
The problem with the shotguns in Fonline is their role in combat overlaps with ‘other rifles’. As a result, small gunners who are choosing a weapon lump them in the same category and come to the same conclusion that they are sub-par when compared with other rifles of the same tier. The value of shotguns is essentially deflated because other rifles can do everything a shotgun can, except better. Consider the following issues:
(I) Seeing as the max range of most shotguns is short, approx. 12/14/16, this hardly requires any investment in Small Guns skill points to achieve 95% chance to hit. Thus the +20% bonus to hit from the accurate perk is only a minor advantage at best, beneficial only to low-leveled characters with low SG or to non-combative characters who still want to use a gun. Not nearly an enticing enough bonus for a dedicated small gunner to consider seriously, seeing how in most cases the +20% hit will be redundant. Compared with long ranged rifles, the +% to hit from the long perk becomes an essential bonus, especially in long-distance night encounters.
(II) Even though the high tier shotguns: combat shotgun/CAWS/Pancor do 15-25 dmg single shot, which is a fair bit of dmg, the short range makes it impractical compared to lets say a sniper rifle, which does even more dmg (14-34) at close range with single shot, yet also has the advantage to shoot much farther. If someone does decide to use a shotgun for single-shot, it would have to be an aimed-shot to yield comparable damage as a rifle. Nonetheless, this in itself is a pretty ridiculous concept when you think of the spray in a shotgun shot.
(III) The burst function is also short ranged and far too limited in damage. With a 0%-DR ammo modifier, it will hardly put a scratch on armored targets. But of course, shotguns aren’t supposed to be used against things that are heavily armored because they don’t penetrate well, so changing the %-DR on the ammo would only serve to make them stronger then they practically should be. As it stands, even a basic rifle (like the assault rifle) can burst for better damage than a combat shotgun, let alone has much farther range.
(IV) The high tier shotguns are not cheap either. Compare it to high tier rifles and you’ll see they are similar in cost. If they do less damage and have shorter range, why should anyone pay the same amount of money, or resources, to get one? As it stands, shotguns are more of a vanity and role-playing weapon. That being said, the sawed-off shotgun is a perfect example of this. Put up against the regular shotgun, it sacrifices 5 range for only +2 max damage. But don’t get me wrong, it makes up for its bad combat capabilities by giving me a damn good feeling when I shoot and reload it. It might be the most shafted gun in the entire game, but it’s definitely the most satisfying gun to hold in my hands.
Solutions:
Increase their range? No
Make the ammo better? No
Make them cheaper? No
Change the role it plays as a combat weapon? Yes
Personally I think Fallout Tactics had it right. The shotguns in that game were not able to do aimed shots, only normal single shot and burst. To compensate, normal single shots had the added bonus of having a wide spread (similar to the AoE of bursting), whereas the burst option would be similar, but dish out more damage at the expense of more AP and ammo. This gave shotguns their own unique role – to instigate fights against clusters of enemies in short-mid range. Damage is only maximized when there were at least 2-3 enemies close together, and it would fall short of dealing good damage if it was just one target. When it came down to close-mid range crowd-control, their total DPS would excel. Rifles, on the other hand, would fulfill the role of single target ranged fighting and could not compare in damage to shotguns, even when bursting into groups at close range. Because rifles and shotguns did not overlap in combat function, both were valued weapons to have. Furthermore, the easy access of shotguns made it a cheap alternative to using grenades, rocket launchers, and miniguns in those who lacked the proficiency to use them, or couldn't afford them.
-
i thinkg changing perk from accurate to "knockdown" or something like that would do the trick. I mean if you would have possibility to knock down when bursting then they should be useful, and it would be both realistic and interesting for game :>
-
Knockback, vedaras, not knockdown.
-
yeah, the big difference is that shotguns still have no spread, therefore every one of your shells will hit the designated target in a burst unles there is someone who breaks the line of fire (raider in front or another raider, you're aiming at the one farther away) if i'm not mistaken.
-
Good ideas retrogator. Along with the spread, shotties could also knock people down like vederas said. At least when and if we ever get slug rounds.
If the engine will allow to have 2 perks on a gun or bullets with perks.
-
Knockback, vedaras, not knockdown.
well correct me if im wrong, but knockback doesnt increase chance to be knocked down, just if you are knocked down, you fly away significant distance. And shotguns would need increased chance to knock down.
-
I don't think increasing Shotgun's chance to knock down would make the PvP battles any better. But that's imo.
-
Rocket has knockdown and knockback, there you go...
-
That's a very good idea Retrogator. I remebre using shoties till the end of Fo:T. It was soooo satysifing to rip a cluster of raiders/mutants/ghuls to shreds with a double barel shot of your trusted Shotgun. But still I'dont belive that people would suddely change their snipers to to shoties.
-
As i said before, the problem is, that in wasteland after nuclear war, there are many hi tech guns like miniguns, rocket launchers, sniper rfiles laser rifles.. I would rahter see mad max guns, that this.
Shotgun will be always useless, because this is short range weapon. I can imagine, that victim of robbery run tu the house, wait near corner, and when attacker enters the room, you will burst him by SG. But this is utopia, because he will have LSW/minigun with 3 bursts and zero penalty for using (speed, reloading,...) so you will die.
-
As i said before, the problem is, that in wasteland after nuclear war, there are many hi tech guns like miniguns, rocket launchers, sniper rfiles laser rifles.. I would rahter see mad max guns, that this.
Seconded. Top tier weapons should remain rare. But that's also devs vision, I think, so stay tuned. This kind of things is hard to balance.
-
Seconded. Top tier weapons should remain rare. But that's also devs vision, I think, so stay tuned. This kind of things is hard to balance.
But basically every big gun and energy weapon does terrible damage except some 1st level guns. Every big gun after flamer is able to deliver huge ammount of damage from close range, whereas energy weapons cause hideous critical hits. You cannot balance the guns mad max style as long as there are 3 differend gun builds, unless you want that big guns use 90% of their time with flamer because other guns are considered rare due to their damage. Energy weapons would have to stick with laser pistol for same ammount of time for the same reasons, while small gunners would have lots of fun because of the great variety of differend low level weapons.
-
As i said before, the problem is, that in wasteland after nuclear war, there are many hi tech guns like miniguns, rocket launchers, sniper rfiles laser rifles.. I would rahter see mad max guns, that this.
Shotgun will be always useless, because this is short range weapon. I can imagine, that victim of robbery run tu the house, wait near corner, and when attacker enters the room, you will burst him by SG. But this is utopia, because he will have LSW/minigun with 3 bursts and zero penalty for using (speed, reloading,...) so you will die.
or you will hit him to eyes for instant or knock
btw i think this is Fallout not mad max
-
or you will hit him to eyes for instant or knock
btw i think this is Fallout not mad max
Dont worry Johnny, they were not able to balance guns in past 8 months, they are not able to do it in next year.
-
Seconded. Top tier weapons should remain rare. But that's also devs vision, I think, so stay tuned. This kind of things is hard to balance.
OFF: Increasing crafting times/more resources wont help, as people wont stop crafting untill they get that item. Increasing the gun/ammo value only makes mines more crowded.
All weapon categories need unique advantages, over one another so they are desirable. And im talking about same tier weapons obviously... Pistols, shotguns, snipers, miniguns, grenades, melee etc. Well melee is dead as long as you cant run to target, and fast shot doesnt affect it(unarmed has higher chance to crit)
Pistols? Hmm if a crippled arm would prevent using 2h weapons then im sure more people would carry sidearms :S
Shotguns? What the others said, a knockback perk would be fine, BUT only for high tier weapons, so basic shotguns would still be a good choice for starting players
-
Wh not to make one big group: fireweapons (SG, BG, EW), like in Van Buren project?
-
I love the idea of shotguns having spread damage for normal shots. I don't care if the range is crap as long as I can hit every of those 5 mantis with each shot. Small guns could use an AOE damage type weapon. Right now grenades were the alternative, and with no skill invested in Throw, it's not too useful.
fireweapons
Firearms.
-
Dont worry Johnny, they were not able to balance guns in past 8 months, they are not able to do it in next year.
you are right :D
-
(http://sleekupload.com/uploads_jpg/20/facepalm_4.jpg)
No, we dont need firearms skill, just...no.
-
I vote to buff the sawnoff shotgun damage to something absolutely brutal, like 30-40 and keeping its very short range.
The regular shotgun keeps its current damage but has its range increased to something like 25.
Boom. They're no longer basically identical guns. One is a short range beast, the other is a more versatile respectable midrange gun.
I'd also like to have the sawnoff shotguns animation be switched from shotgun to pistol. I just think it'd be cool.
I also suggest that burst gets removed from one of the CAWS/Combat Shotgun/Pancor and the crafting requirements/price is reduced so one of them functions as a mid tier 'pump action shotgun'. I'd suggest that it be the combat shotgun, as it is the best looking gun out of the three and the one I'd most like to see around the game a lot more.
I'm not sure if it'd be possible to make every shotgun blast function as a 'burst', that strikes me as an engine-side thing.
I know weapon balance will be looked at, but we have to start somewhere.
-
No, we dont need firearms skill, just...no.
Seriously, what's wrong with it? Just make it so that big guns demand high strength and there's no way around it. When there's no big guns around, big gunners would prefer other burst weapons and shotguns. Energy weapons wouldn't even have to have a class dedicated for them because energy weps would be top tier weapons which everyone would want. This would demand overhaul of profesions and how guns were available, but hell, it would definitely bring cool benefits.
I made this kind of modification in fallout tactics and it effing rocked.
-
Seriously, what's wrong with it? Just make it so that big guns demand high strength and there's no way around it. When there's no big guns around, big gunners would prefer other burst weapons and shotguns. Energy weapons wouldn't even have to have a class dedicated for them because energy weps would be top tier weapons which everyone would want. This would demand overhaul of profesions and how guns were available, but hell, it would definitely bring cool benefits.
I made this kind of modification in fallout tactics and it effing rocked.
This idea actually requires a lot less tinkering than I thought it did. All weapon protos or whatever would just be changed to use 'Small Guns' for their skill rolls instead of Big Guns, but Small Guns would be renamed 'Firearms' in all the menus, etc.
Holy shit, and melee weapons/unarmed weapons/throwing could all use the same skill to determine to hit chance as well. They could just be registered ingame as using the melee skill, and that gets renamed 'Low Tech'.
I don't think it'd be possible to combine lockpick/traps, but at least the weapon system could be improved.
It would, at the very least, make the game more 'fun'. If you find a gun, any gun, you can start blasting away. And if melee and unarmed were the same skill, people would be a lot more likely to invest a couple skills points in it.
-
I vote for Combat(Firearms+HtH+throwing), Craft(doc+fa+traps+science+repair+outdoorsmen(because of survival)), and Needs-Moar-Work(speech+barter+gambling+sneak+steal+lockpicking) skills then. All 3 could be tagged! \o/
-
Holy shit, and melee weapons/unarmed weapons/throwing could all use the same skill to determine to hit chance as well. They could just be registered ingame as using the melee skill, and that gets renamed 'Low Tech'.
Yeh and then just make some rolls dependent on stats. For example heavy close range weapons would mainly depend on strength, knives on agility and throwing on perception to prevent players from mastering everything.
I vote for Combat(Firearms+HtH+throwing), Craft(doc+fa+traps+science+repair+outdoorsmen(because of survival)), and Needs-Moar-Work(speech+barter+gambling+sneak+steal+lockpicking) skills then. All 3 could be tagged! \o/
This isn't appropriate remark from my part but your signature says it all.
-
I just don't get it, what's the point of knockback??? Shotguns range is really low, so in your opinion if you knock back the target out of your shotgun range, u will benefit? Or do you imagine switching to a sniper rifle and taking the target out or what? Knockback is not the solution, since this weapon has such a low range, it should have a higher damage output(compared to todays damage)
-
In my Huge weapon's changes thread, i suggested that long barreled weapons should have AP penalty in interiors. Like in real world, imagine situation that you are attacking inside the family house and you have to use long sniper riffle, or assault riffle.. All police commandos across the world use submachine guns and shotguns for that reason.
-
add solid slug ammuniton, increases range slightly and gives KD chance, because buckshot wouldn't knock you down or go through metal armour.
-
I just don't get it, what's the point of knockback??? Shotguns range is really low, so in your opinion if you knock back the target out of your shotgun range, u will benefit? Or do you imagine switching to a sniper rifle and taking the target out or what? Knockback is not the solution, since this weapon has such a low range, it should have a higher damage output(compared to todays damage)
Afaik knockback happens only on certain crits, at least, the SuperSledge doesnt knockback on every hit..In fact its pretty rare, too rare if you ask me. When it does happen however, the opponent is knocked down, and unable to move for a while, leaving space for the attacker to either run away, or get in close range again, or switch weapons like you said it. If a sniper build has low health, it would be quite beneficial to knockback a bigguner. But since knockback is unreliable(low chance) it would be just a fun factor :P
@avv: Its offtopic to begin with.
-
Who would want to have "a fading chance of knocking down the oponent at close range with a shot gun, when you could just pull out a mouser and cripple him or insta kill/knockout/blind/break a limb or smth else? (in case of a sniper build)
-
Knockbacks, not knockdowns. It's a very different things. Knockback actually make you feel the power of your weapon, and are not that powerful. But still, they are useful.
-
I don't see much point in making your opponent waste a couple of seconds unless a town NPC abuse by a gang of shotgunners is planned, if you are fighting a player without any sniper covering your back it's useless, you just won't kill a player, he'll stand up and nail you if it's a BG or run away/cripple you with a mouser(to embarass) if you've managed to get at a shotgun range to a sniper build
-
The advantage is simple : Your enemy gets pushed back a few hexes and has to stand up - and to recover all his AP. Meanwhile, you got a few seconds to reload, gather AP to shoot him again, or simply run away !
-
Or simply u'll have to run after him sliding so that you would be able to reach him with your shotgun range, besides, who would use shotguns with this perk? A burst weapon will outdamage it, outrange and won't knock the target out of your crappy range.
-
I mean, seriously. Who uses any of the weapons? The game should just have a minigun and a sniper rifle. All the others don't deal maximum damage so there is no point in having them in game.
Also, what use are all those perks? Just leave the critical ones, toughness and lifegiver. Nothing else is ever going to be used by real gamers so it should be deleted.
@Below:
I was being sarcastic. It annoys me when people say a weapon is useless just because you can't slaughter everyone with it.
-
I mean, seriously. Who uses any of the weapons? The game should just have a minigun and a sniper rifle. All the others don't deal maximum damage so there is no point in having them in game.
Also, what use are all those perks? Just leave the critical ones, toughness and lifegiver. Nothing else is ever going to be used by real gamers so it should be deleted.
Remember about players who are non-pvp type. In my opinion shotgun is a very useful weapon for slaving purposes. I think shotgun with knock-back should get a chance to be tested.
-
Or simply u'll have to run after him sliding so that you would be able to reach him with your shotgun range, besides, who would use shotguns with this perk? A burst weapon will outdamage it, outrange and won't knock the target out of your crappy range.
yeah thats why i suggested only knockdown not knockback :D
-
A shotgun with a tough chance of knockdown the target ? Seems abusable. =|
-
A shotgun with a tough chance of knockdown the target ? Seems abusable. =|
nah, shotgun could sitll have "accurate". But since H&K CAWS and pancor jackhammer are in the most expensive weapons list, i would see nothing wrong making them much more stronger in close range then they are now. Fast shot + sg build would look cool, as now people only make snipers :>
-
A shotgun with a tough chance of knockdown the target ? Seems abusable. =|
And a shotgun with a tough chance of knockback seems like a worthless investment, on the other hand, if you want to leave them as "popular" as they are now, you could also add something like a "adds a chance to grow a fruit on the oponents head, that you could gather with a science of 301". It won't make this guns worth it if you add some useless or even an unbeneficial perk to it.(such as a knockback)
-
Did you ever test knockbacks ? I did, and that's why I wouldn't call them "useless".
-
Did you ever test knockbacks ? I did, and that's why I wouldn't call them "useless".
man i played hth with ss hammer, when you knockback you knockback like 8-10 hexes. Jackhammer range is 16, so if you shoot someone from 8 hexes for example, enemy just runs away, simple as that.
-
Knockback can be capped, when I talk about a knockback, I'm not talking about a 16 hexes distance (It would be really fancy, but not that helpful nor realistic). I'm talking about a max. 4 hexes knockback.
-
Knockback can be capped, when I talk about a knockback, I'm not talking about a 16 hexes distance (It would be really fancy, but not that helpful nor realistic). I'm talking about a max. 4 hexes knockback.
still knockback, is not criticaly hit and was knocked down. It wont take ap away from enemy, he will just get up and run away, so pretty much no use of the perkand still no use of the most expensive gun in wasteland :>
-
You can't expect a shotgun to be as good as a minigun. Expensive doesn't mean everything. And yes, knockback takes AP (afair). And seriously, knockdown equals to instant kill, above all if the shotguns do good damage.
I'd prefer good damage + knockback rather than low damage + knockdown.
-
You can't expect a shotgun to be as good as a minigun. Expensive doesn't mean everything. And yes, knockback takes AP (afair). And seriously, knockdown equals to instant kill, above all if the shotguns do good damage.
I'd prefer good damage + knockback rather than low damage + knockdown.
well then make it cheap simple if it cant be as good as its price :> that would work also, and probably would increase usage of it.
-
Well I guess you just want to make it stay as "popular" as it is now.