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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Floodnik on May 11, 2013, 12:24:44 am

Title: Finesse
Post by: Floodnik on May 11, 2013, 12:24:44 am

the power of finesse

00:19:43 • Marauder was critically hit in the groin for no damage, knocked out and knocked down.
00:19:47 • Marauder was critically hit in the eyes for no damage.
00:19:50 • Marauder was critically hit in the eyes for no damage, knocked out and blinded.
00:19:53 • Marauder was critically hit in the eyes for no damage.
00:19:56 • Marauder was critically hit in the eyes for no damage.
00:20:00 • Marauder was critically hit in the eyes for no damage.
00:20:03 • Marauder was critically hit in the eyes for no damage.
00:20:04 • You were hit for 15 hit points.
00:20:07 • Marauder missed.
00:20:09 • Marauder was critically hit in the eyes for no damage.
00:20:10 • You were hit for 12 hit points.
00:20:12 • You missed.
00:20:14 • You were critically hit for 18 hit points.
00:20:15 • Marauder was critically hit in the eyes for no damage.
00:20:17 • You were hit in the eyes for 12 hit points.
00:20:18 • Marauder was critically hit in the eyes for no damage.
00:20:20 • You were hit for 16 hit points.
00:20:22 • Marauder was critically hit in the eyes for no damage.
00:20:24 • You were hit for 16 hit points.
00:20:25 • Marauder was hit in the eyes for no damage.
00:20:28 • Marauder was critically hit in the eyes for no damage.
00:20:28 • You were hit for 13 hit points.
00:20:31 • Marauder was critically hit in the eyes for no damage.
00:20:31 • You were hit for 10 hit points.
00:20:34 • Marauder was hit in the eyes for no damage.
00:20:35 • You were hit in the groin for 11 hit points.
00:20:38 • Marauder was critically hit in the eyes for no damage.
00:20:39 • Marauder missed.
00:20:41 • Marauder was critically hit in the eyes for no damage.
00:20:42 • You were hit for 9 hit points.
00:20:42 • You were hit for 12 hit points.
00:20:43 • You were hit for 14 hit points and were killed.

RBtE, Better Criticals included.

don't know why I posted that. Good night

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: Rain on May 11, 2013, 12:51:47 am

.44 magnum,no armor piercing bullets,perfect game mechanics.

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: avv on May 11, 2013, 12:57:14 am

Eyecrits aren't what they used to be.

In addition, bypasses are more dependent on crit receiver's luck rather than the abilities of shooter.

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: Raven Crow on May 11, 2013, 10:47:58 am

I also think its exagerated.
You should be able to make some damage since you're aiming in the eye.
I could understand that kind of result in the head with helmet protection, but in the eyes...

Also, Aren't the general damages too much reduced with finesse?

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: Tomowolf on May 11, 2013, 10:51:23 am

Pr0tip for newcomer snipers and ongoing snipers.
Do not try shooting in eyes, better go for head, less crit chance, but bigger chance for more damage/ko/ and not to miss.
Also luck isn't that improtant as Avv said, moreover only critchance is improtnt, there is no basically difference between 6 and 8 luck or 8 and 10.
Better go for more hps, anti other sniper traits/perks and shoot head.
If you want to be pure crippler, just take 10lk and finesse, and aim hands, and thats it.

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: DeputyDope on May 11, 2013, 12:36:36 pm

Quote from: Tomowolf on May 11, 2013, 10:51:23 am

Pr0tip for newcomer snipers and ongoing snipers.
Do not try shooting in eyes, better go for head, less crit chance, but bigger chance for more damage/ko/ and not to miss.
Also luck isn't that improtant as Avv said, moreover only critchance is improtnt, there is no basically difference between 6 and 8 luck or 8 and 10.
Better go for more hps, anti other sniper traits/perks and shoot head.
If you want to be pure crippler, just take 10lk and finesse, and aim hands, and thats it.

take finesse, aim for the hands/legs, then find out your sniper is complete shit.

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: Tomowolf on May 11, 2013, 12:41:00 pm

Quote from: DeputyDope on May 11, 2013, 12:36:36 pm

take finesse, aim for the hands/legs, then find out your sniper is complete shit.

If you know what I mean, then not.
Sniper's role has changed, he's now more support, than a main battle alt.
Used before to do instakills, now to KO/KD enemy + cripple/drop guns.

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: Floodnik on May 11, 2013, 12:53:36 pm

Quote from: Tomowolf on May 11, 2013, 10:51:23 am

only critchance is improtnt, there is no basically difference between 6 and 8 luck or 8 and 10.

Critical chance bonus received from aiming the eyes at 6: 50,4%; 8: 55,2%; 10: 60%.
Aiming at head at 6: 33,6%; 8: 36,8%; 10: 40%.
Groin at 6: 25,2%; 8: 27,6%; 10: 30%. Arms are the same story.
You could say it makes quite a difference(in critical chance) when you're going to aim for eyes. It's getting lower with the other body parts though.

Well, anyway, I owe you some explanations.
Firstly, I think Solar messed something up... I didn't test it before, since I didn't try a sniper this session yet. Now I'm trying.
Must read 1. (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,21937.msg181742.html#msg181742), must read 2 (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,21937.msg182067.html#msg182067). Changes done to snipers after those 2 Solar's posts: RBtE buff(25%->50%); helmet anti crit modifiers doubled(could it make such significance?); "adjusted critical hit tables"(another nerf? or buff? who knows?); "slightly adjusted critical hit tables"(again).

Those shots were a laser pistol versus a metal mask with finesse! Metal mask has 75DR against laser, finesse gives another 30DR, does it mean it should deal 0 damage? Maybe, but...
First: isn't DR capped at 95? Well, doesn't matter, the damage would be still shit. We still have DT so it really could fall down to 0.
Second: would I do ANY damage, if I didn't take finesse? Probably yes. There's the part where Solar could have messed up.

Quote

So Finesse is about an 11-14% increase in damage ... and better crit effects on top of course.

Quote

As for Finesse being OP. First of all, it would only be a good/great choice when targetting head/eyes.

Quote

Both of these have the same crit chance targetting CA Helmets, but the afterwipe version takes an extra trait slot and has the -crit roll effect of the helmet and the 30% DR for the 5-10% shots that aren't criticals.

Why am I quoting Solar? He is responsible for the sniper changes and the involved maths(probably).
According to him, finesse should be actually increase in overall damage. But the test says otherwise. If I didn't have finesse, I most probably would do ANY damage. With finesse, I did 0. Now notice the bold part in my last quote. "30% DR for the 5-10% shots that aren't criticals". Does it mean the DR bonus should be mitigated every time a critical is applied? According to Solar, yes. That would mean there's a bug in the system's implementation.
It could also mean that armor bypasses are way too rare.

It's possible there's an error in my thinking and I'm totally wrong. But if you see my point, you could conclude the same thing I have... snipers were overnerfed and it wasn't meant to be like that.

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: Tomowolf on May 11, 2013, 01:00:52 pm

If It wasn't meant to be like that, look at it from the PVPers point of view:
- They can shoot from the biggest range, doing KO's - that's pretty neat
- They can go back easily, because of lower range of other enemy's weapons
- They do not use TONs of ammo and superstims during battles, so they're much cheaper than other builds, still being good.

I think, bypasses for snipers are doing too much damage, one shoot deciding about if a 285 hp tank gonna die or not is pretty not cool.

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: avv on May 11, 2013, 01:20:10 pm

Quote from: Floodnik on May 11, 2013, 12:53:36 pm

It could also mean that armor bypasses are way too rare.

Like it was said, bypasses depend on receiver's luck.

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: Dark. on May 11, 2013, 02:49:53 pm

Quote from: Tomowolf on May 11, 2013, 01:00:52 pm

- They do not use TONs of ammo and superstims during battles, so they're much cheaper than other builds, still being good.

Sniper without 12 SS or more is dead on sight, at least in crowded actions.

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: Tomowolf on May 11, 2013, 02:52:07 pm

Quote from: Dark. on May 11, 2013, 02:49:53 pm

Sniper without 12 SS or more is dead on sight, at least in crowded actions.

So you use to it as tank or as sniper  ;D ;D?

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: Dark. on May 11, 2013, 02:55:30 pm

Quote from: Tomowolf on May 11, 2013, 02:52:07 pm

So you use to it as tank or as sniper  ;D ;D?

Tank takes less damage than any other build. It doesn't need as many SS as a sniper. If you want to last enough in big actions with a sniper, only way out is to bring such amount of SS.

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: Tomowolf on May 11, 2013, 02:56:34 pm

Quote from: Dark. on May 11, 2013, 02:55:30 pm

Tank takes less damage than any other build. It doesn't need as many SS as a sniper. If you want to last enough in big actions with a sniper, only way out is to bring such amount of SS.

Oh so?
Tanky means having lot of hps, not Having 5x toughness and adrealine rush  ;D ;D (In this game, because you cannot just stack lot of resistances).

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: Dark. on May 11, 2013, 03:00:26 pm

Quote from: Tomowolf on May 11, 2013, 02:56:34 pm

Oh so?
Tanky means having lot of hps, not Having 5x toughness and adrealine rush  ;D ;D (In this game, because you cannot just stack lot of resistances).

Aha, point still stands.

Back to topic, Finesse on a sniper isn't the best choice, just take Sharpshooter and RBtE. Also, be sure to have enough INT, since if you're planning to get 1 ST Sniper you'll find out that around 240~% SG skill is required.

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: DeputyDope on May 11, 2013, 03:25:57 pm

Quote from: Dark. on May 11, 2013, 03:00:26 pm

Aha, point still stands.

Finesse on a sniper isn't the best choice

agreed. sniper cripplers are rubbish this session.

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: Floodnik on May 11, 2013, 04:31:56 pm

That's the point - they shouldn't be. Finesse was meant to be taken by certain characters, e. g. Solar's post - those that aim eyes/head. Finesse should increase overall damage. Snipers were meant to be nerfed in another way: reduced rolls, defense through higher luck and anti-crit perks, extra trait spot that is a must-take. Browse carefully through Solar's post to see what his vision was.

I think there's a bug in the implementation somewhere. Or maybe Solar left his work half-done... In fact, he hasn't been active for a while.

Basically:

Quote

Before the Wipe:
3 MC, 10 Luck, Better Criticals, Targetting Eyes

After Wipe:
2 MC, 10 Luck, Better Criticals, RBtE, Targetting Eyes, Finesse

Unchanged: critical chance.
Pros: Higher damage. Only 5-10% shots that aren't criticals have reduced damage, but overall the dmg is ~10% bigger.
Cons: extra trait slot taken away(finesse is a must take). Worse crit rolls(+20 before wipe, potentially -10 after) = worse effects - less KOs, KDs, no insta kills(sic!), so everything BG users were bitching about.

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: Tomowolf on May 11, 2013, 04:35:09 pm

Quote from: Floodnik on May 11, 2013, 04:31:56 pm

That's the point - they shouldn't be. Finesse was meant to be taken by certain characters, e. g. Solar's post - those that aim eyes/head. Finesse should increase overall damage. Snipers were meant to be nerfed in another way: reduced rolls, defense through higher luck and anti-crit perks, extra trait spot that is a must-take. Browse carefully through Solar's post to see what his vision was.

I think there's a bug in the implementation somewhere. Or maybe Solar left his work half-done... In fact, he hasn't been active for a while.

You don't have a place for anti crit perk, you just take bonehead to anti crit other snipers, because most snipers have less than 200 hps, and will get killed in 2 bursts by non crit bursters.

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: Floodnik on May 11, 2013, 04:38:57 pm

So that's another argument for buffing snipers, Tomowolf - BG builds don't even have to take MoS or TTT :/ They just go damage, yay.
Small edit in my previous post for you guys to see how it should work.

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: Edik on May 11, 2013, 07:59:44 pm

Bypass should ignore DR and should happen more often when aiming eyes (you don't have much eyeprotection, even while wearing helmet, don't you?)

Title: Re: Finesse
Post by: Raven Crow on May 17, 2013, 02:06:22 pm

DR and DT should depend on armor's condition.
As for the damages taken in any circonstances in my opinion.

And I agree with Edik, there shouldnt be any protection in the eyes, supposed to be the most sensitive part, also harder to hit.