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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Gang Issues => Topic started by: wreese2u on September 16, 2012, 11:02:41 pm

Title: Sandokan proxy
Post by: wreese2u on September 16, 2012, 11:02:41 pm
I wasnt sure where to put this, im guessing gang issues.

Heres the screenshots.

(http://imageshack.us/a/img607/6648/screen20120916165617.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/screen20120916165617.jpg/)

(http://imageshack.us/a/img846/1566/screen20120916165607.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/846/screen20120916165607.jpg/)

And

(http://imageshack.us/a/img526/3601/screen20120916165559.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/526/screen20120916165559.jpg/)

Proof enough?... i think yes.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: falloutdude on September 16, 2012, 11:08:07 pm
you are aware that there are no more rules against dual logging right.   ???
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: JovankaB on September 16, 2012, 11:10:22 pm
you are aware that there are no more rules against dual logging right.   ???

You are wrong, multilog isn't allowed in PvP.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: LittleBoy on September 16, 2012, 11:10:50 pm
its not proxy first ist dual log (tirple log ...). when you never see it http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,23103.240.html  look down :D and look maszrum profile http://clip2net.com/clip/m130446/1347023819-clip-18kb.jpg .... oh you never use it ? then its time ...



dual log is common in pvp like sneakers trolls skauts ... anyway its not possible to play with two characer in same time :D when sandokan have ban i expect ban all characets with dual log in pvp
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: wreese2u on September 16, 2012, 11:18:16 pm
its not proxy first ist dual log (tirple log ...). when you never see it http://fodev.net/forum/index.php/topic,23103.240.html  look down :D and look maszrum profile http://clip2net.com/clip/m130446/1347023819-clip-18kb.jpg .... oh you never use it ? then its time ...



dual log is common in pvp like sneakers trolls skauts ... anyway its not possible to play with two characer in same time :D when sandokan have ban i expect ban all characets with dual log in pvp
And yet, he does not give out his nicks.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Fettel on September 16, 2012, 11:26:28 pm
Buuuusteed!
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: LittleBoy on September 16, 2012, 11:31:49 pm
Buuuusteed!

name does not prove anything, it is only the order of letters :D  .Only IP could and when we use proxy IP also does not prove anything . That called "magic circle" :) welcome to fonline stranger!
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: T-888 on September 16, 2012, 11:35:50 pm
You are wrong, multilog isn't allowed in PvP.

Only problem there is nobody to enforce that rule.

Funny, two troll characters on a dual log, epic shit.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Crazy on September 16, 2012, 11:43:29 pm
He probably didn't even bother to use a proxy. Anyway he could have used fast relog for a similar result.

Welcome in new FOnline.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: wreese2u on September 16, 2012, 11:46:23 pm
name does not prove anything, it is only the order of letters :D  .Only IP could and when we use proxy IP also does not prove anything . That called "magic circle" :) welcome to fonline stranger!
He even said "Im back" so, get out.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: T-888 on September 16, 2012, 11:48:32 pm
Reese why you so stupid? ;D

Sandokan = Littleboy
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: LittleBoy on September 16, 2012, 11:49:43 pm
He even said "Im back" so, get out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPzN916D8D0
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: wreese2u on September 17, 2012, 12:19:16 am
Reese why you so stupid? ;D

Sandokan = Littleboy
:(
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: sigma. on September 17, 2012, 12:26:33 am
What a shame.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: falloutdude on September 17, 2012, 01:10:58 am
You are wrong, multilog isn't allowed in PvP.
then ban all the people fast reloging, its the same thing. also he is at a disadvantage when he is multilogging he can only really be effective on 1 at a time.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: wreese2u on September 17, 2012, 01:22:46 am
then ban all the people fast reloging, its the same thing. also he is at a disadvantage when he is multilogging he can only really be effective on 1 at a time.
Not really, he came with his other character when the first one died, hes not controlling them both at once
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: falloutdude on September 17, 2012, 01:30:37 am
Not really, he came with his other character when the first one died, hes not controlling them both at once

then thats the same as fast reloging not dual logging.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: wreese2u on September 17, 2012, 06:20:20 am
then thats the same as fast reloging not dual logging.
And it's still a banable offence, get over it.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: AtomicWrangler on September 17, 2012, 10:11:08 am
well...troll on dual log...funny.
BUT...if you feel damaged by this...you are cryin´on the wrong place. Its the DEVs,who allowed fast relog,and those bloody trolls. And now there is big surprise,when people are using it.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: JovankaB on September 17, 2012, 10:37:54 am
well...troll on dual log...funny.
BUT...if you feel damaged by this...you are cryin´on the wrong place. Its the DEVs,who allowed fast relog,and those bloody trolls. And now there is big surprise,when people are using it.

Multilogging in PvP was never allowed. The person who does it is a cheater and if I by any chance
I will be on server and see anyone doing this, all dual logging chars of the person will be permabanned.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Kelin on September 17, 2012, 11:48:07 am
Strong words Jovanka. Since the start of the session I've seen many many players using dual or multi log no matter if they are from my or enemy team, yet till now I'm not aware of anyone of them who has been banned for such violation. PvP alt, merc leader and two sneakers of one player that's basically today's standard in PvP battles. I don't say everybody does that but surely it's not only one guy from each faction.

It's impossible that cheaters have been banned already because I still meet their nick., nick-, nick_ and these are often people who would never ever lend their characters to anybody. So either GMs do their work wrong or they don't care. Which is worse? Honestly I don't know. The only thing I'm afraid of is that you will ban this SANDOKAN and after that leave other cheaters alone.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: JovankaB on September 17, 2012, 12:18:18 pm
Strong words Jovanka. Since the start of the session I've seen many many players using dual or multi log no matter if they are from my or enemy team, yet till now I'm not aware of anyone of them who has been banned for such violation. PvP alt, merc leader and two sneakers of one player that's basically today's standard in PvP battles. I don't say everybody does that but surely it's not only one guy from each faction.

It's impossible that cheaters have been banned already because I still meet their nick., nick-, nick_ and these are often people who would never ever lend their characters to anybody. So either GMs do their work wrong or they don't care. Which is worse? Honestly I don't know. The only thing I'm afraid of is that you will ban this SANDOKAN and after that leave other cheaters alone.

I banned a couple chars this session for dual log in PvP.

There is no GM who can watch server 24/7 (or even interested in doing it it seems), true, but it doesn't
change the game rules, and it doesn't mean you are allowed to dual log in PvP. If you cheat, don't cry
if one day a couple of your characters will be lost forever because I will be on server and see this. Most
of you aren't kids anymore, this rule never changed, and I'm not going to repeat the warning again.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Tomowolf on September 17, 2012, 02:02:56 pm
I banned a couple chars this session for dual log in PvP.

There is no GM who can watch server 24/7 (or even interested in doing it it seems), true, but it doesn't
change the game rules, and it doesn't mean you are allowed to dual log in PvP. If you cheat, don't cry
if one day a couple of your characters will be lost forever because I will be on server and see this. Most
of you aren't kids anymore, this rule never changed, and I'm not going to repeat the warning again.

Mooooom, but mom...!

Well you got two ways to do (or just watch)
first one is do mass ban like with using that cheating tool, or second to allow player do that, or you'll get even more topics at forum "why I was banned and xx not?!" or "gm abuse".
Since I know from playing this game for long time, good one would be creating or upgrading those rules or the engine to not allow players to do that AFTER a wipe.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: LeMark on September 17, 2012, 02:32:04 pm
1: You make a statement about dual logging during fight and you hire the man power to support it or
2: You do like it is now, not legal but you watch somewhere else.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: LittleBoy on September 17, 2012, 03:34:55 pm
I agree with all players comments . Do something with all duallogs or leave it and never talk about it.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: maszrum on September 17, 2012, 03:50:52 pm
im not the biggest fan of dualloging but in my option is not the best time to do some crusade against dualog. server is basicly empyt, only old pvp players who dont care,playing this game + somne random guys who leaving fonline after week of playing.

really want to do something with this problem? just block dual log, make statement. however time its not good - maybe try after next season? if you start banning people now server become empty in days.

j
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: -Fojtik- on September 17, 2012, 04:03:10 pm
I think that banning players does not solve anything, there's always someone who breaks the rules, if GM is not online. The only solution is to bring a smart mechanism that prevents it.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Crazy on September 17, 2012, 05:36:39 pm
Right now, it's kinda the same situation as focd long time ago: officially forbidden, but everyone doing it as almost nobody get banned for that, and you just can't compete with an enemy doing it if you don't. I do hope it won't end in the same retarded way...
I think it's better to either leave players alone and not banning anyone, or enforce that rule efficiently enough so you would have a big chance to get caught if you do it. Middle way is just very bad for everyone.


And of course, it doesn't solve the fast relog and OP trolls problem...
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Paladin on September 17, 2012, 06:05:38 pm
I was on Sandokan. problem solved close topic.
thank you for your attention
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: avv on September 17, 2012, 06:06:18 pm
When bans do happen only the most obvious cheaters get banned and the clever ones continue. It's either all or none when it comes to laying justice.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: SSakul on September 17, 2012, 06:07:21 pm
This is funny few weeks ago Kilgore send to irc screen with  AVV and his 3 atl online and nobody care .. now its Hawks and its incredible BAAAD yeah double standarts ...
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: LeMark on September 17, 2012, 06:08:47 pm
This is funny few weeks ago Kilgore send to irc screen with  AVV and his 3 atl online and nobody care .. now its Hawks and its incredible BAAAD yeah double standarts ...

In fact must people (every TC gang member?) are supporting you....
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: SSakul on September 17, 2012, 06:11:12 pm
Every gang use double logs Lemark .. not only Hawks and u know it
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Paladin on September 17, 2012, 06:13:08 pm
When bans do happen only the most obvious cheaters get banned and the clever ones continue. It's either all or none when it comes to laying justice.

truth :)

warning about incoming police action .... this only gives time to switch from dual to proxy so it will solve nothing.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: LeMark on September 17, 2012, 06:15:08 pm
Every gang use double logs Lemark .. not only Hawks and u know it

This is why I support you dude, like close to every one execpt Jovanka and Wresse, don't you see?
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: T-888 on September 17, 2012, 06:43:27 pm
So just cheat, dual log as you wish, who cares how much mercenaries or scouts someone has or troll characters in fact, the only real problem that bothers me is FR and current usage of it. Everyone uses scouts, some slaves on WM or mercenaries, looters and whatever on dual logs, that hasn't bothered me never and ever, i myself use 2 windows of clients constantly and have been using forever. It is so easy to set up that dual log, that i couldn't argue that it somehow gives an advantage since every team use that, if someone don't it's their loss. (i simply don't consider that as cheating how common is that, maybe it's stupid, but not as stupid as 5 combat characters ready on WM)

Stupid game mechanics provokes us to do that (30 man swarm around the corner, impossible to notice them unless someone dies), i had suggestion to even somehow ease up that scout situation, by using motion sensor mark II as static scouts witch reveal area around the map and with right availability it should work just fine, but instead we have some developer saying it's against the rules, maybe do something about it not only declare some lame ass rules that has no real weight behind them because it's impossible to enforce them conventionally.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: SSakul on September 17, 2012, 06:55:37 pm
This is why I support you dude, like close to every one execpt Jovanka and Wresse, don't you see?

Ah i see .. sry i bad translate you before ..
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Sarakin on September 17, 2012, 07:07:48 pm
So just cheat, dual log as you wish, who cares how much mercenaries or scouts someone has or troll characters in fact, the only real problem that bothers me is FR and current usage of it. Everyone uses scouts, some slaves on WM or mercenaries, looters and whatever on dual logs, that hasn't bothered me never and ever, i myself use 2 windows of clients constantly and have been using forever. It is so easy to set up that dual log, that i couldn't argue that it somehow gives an advantage since every team use that, if someone don't it's their loss. (i simply don't consider that as cheating how common is that, maybe it's stupid, but not as stupid as 5 combat characters ready on WM)
How can you be such an ignorant ? As long as YOU are satisfied with current usage of dual and fast relogs ,everyone should be as well.
For you, using scouts, mercs and such on DL/FR is normal, for me, it is not. Who has the right to say what is acceptable and what is considered cheating ?
You might be surprised, but not everyone is using "must-have" DL/FR scouts and such, just because you justify their existence.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Dark Angel on September 17, 2012, 07:57:16 pm
Resse nice crying.
Enjoy it who can't into pvp.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: T-888 on September 17, 2012, 07:58:20 pm
I didn't say it's appropriate, i rather not use dual log, but since it is common and easy to do(i have my role to fill in my team with that, it's fun for me), well let's say it doesn't bother me if someone else uses mercenaries, scouts etc. etc. just like i said, i didn't say it satisfies me somehow of the fact that it is as a requirement actually(just like multiple alts). For an individual it might be inappropriate, but if you look at your team with whom you play, there is always someone filling the roll to play with more than one client in order for you to stand a better chance (to equalize the odds), say thanks to them and just accept it until someone will do something about it. It's your loss if you don't dual log now, if you consider that as cheating and set some hard principles about it (more dots ....) ... it's only my opinion that i don't consider that as cheating, i can have my opinion right? :)

I don't consider FR cheating too no matter that it's worse than dual log, but i don't see it appropriate, i accept it currently so that i can still enjoy this game. I have an advice for you to do the same thing, it's a game after all.

It's not black and white, i'm only partially ignorant. :)
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Sarakin on September 18, 2012, 12:12:52 am
The thing is, some time ago (lets say 2 years), DL & FR was something unacceptable and players didnt consider it as a neccessity and were strictly against it (pvp wise). What will the future bring ? FR to dozen of characters will be a must for all active players and not having several alts on DL would mean an inevitable defeat ? 
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Kilgore on September 18, 2012, 12:21:59 am
2 years ago like 75% of active pvp players (and about 700-800 alts) were banned for using FOCD which was used also for fastrelog timer bypass. Also without autoaim implemented, things like packet filters, fastrelogs from dynamic IPs and duallogs were very common. Now I'm reading that it was unacceptable and players didnt consider it as a necessity, what the fuck am I reading.

Duallog/fastrelog is as old as this game is. 2nd session was also full of this. Maybe on a smaller scale, but remember that large scale pvp started in 3rd session.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Sarakin on September 18, 2012, 01:01:24 am
It was just an example, I could just say in 2009 and no, it wasnt common. Players were banned in summer 2010, which is almost one year after 2238 started.
Also dont forget, that after this banwave, people were cheating less (less than now for sure)
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Paladin on September 18, 2012, 02:16:34 am
2 years ago like 75% of active pvp players (and about 700-800 alts) were banned for using FOCD which was used also for fastrelog timer bypass. Also without autoaim implemented, things like packet filters, fastrelogs from dynamic IPs and duallogs were very common. Now I'm reading that it was unacceptable and players didnt consider it as a necessity, what the fuck am I reading.

Duallog/fastrelog is as old as this game is. 2nd session was also full of this. Maybe on a smaller scale, but remember that large scale pvp started in 3rd session.

You say that if someone use cheats then enable all cheats instead of ban or what ?

Sarakin is right

Think why is every town empty.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Kilgore on September 18, 2012, 10:06:20 am
You say that if someone use cheats then enable all cheats instead of ban or what ?
Dunno what you are talking about, especially about "enabling cheats". Rofl :P
If you have problems with understanding what was posted, read it twice.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Nice_Boat on September 18, 2012, 11:08:33 am
I find it funny that people who were banned for FR/dl/FOCD are now against dual logs and are attacking Kilgore who wasn't banned during the 2010 ban wave. Come on, it's the internet, shit posted once stays on forever - nobody forgot what happened back then. The towns aren't empty because of how PvP works, they're empty because of 2 years of tiresome out of combat gameplay (crafting, gathering, farming), bullshit balance changes like Parley or random nerfs/buffs and hilariously broken new TC mechanic every new season.

Now, here's a good reason why the devs shouldn't even read this thread: every single time this community disagrees on something, there's a 99% chance somebody's pushing his faction's politics or even his own personal agenda. It's been that way with weapon balance with people getting raped by a certain weapon crying for a nerf, right now it's the same with fast relogs and dual logs. I guarantee you at least half of the people saying that FR/DL = cheats are hypocrites who simply want to limit access to these features and will start exploiting 3rd party tools and/or dynamic IPs to get an edge once the devs give in. It was the same with the weapon nerf/buff circle - same people complaining first about BGs (because they got killed by BGs), than after a nerf about SGs (because suddenly they still get owned but their opressors had to switch to SGs due to bullshit nerf), than about BGs again... you get the drift.

The message here is simple - stop trying to dick around with game balance, the only things that deserve to be scrapped are things that everyone, even people gaining notoriety in using them complain about - like SD nades or AC trolls. Even then, it should be a last resort, not a knee jerk reaction. You're just wasting the devs' time here, instead of helping you with your petty nerf/buff politics they could be working on stuff that'd make this game more playable for newcomers and smaller factions, which would mean more players and more action in PvP in the future.

And before somebody says that using multiple alts places the entry barrier too high for smaller teams - that's total brahmin crap and you know it. People who can't enter PvP are limited by the numbers of their faction, not by the number of their alts. Most of them actually have enough or more to bring it in, they just lack the organization to make an impact. Besides given the level cap it takes like 2 days to level up a character on 2238, building 6 alts is still less time consuming than finalizing a single build in most other mmos. Domination mode would be a good way of getting rid of that problem, unfortunately we got influence based TC and Reno sewers (which incidentally is probably the best map on the server that will never see a lot of use) instead.

The punchline is simple - if you're losing, it's not due to FR/DL/crit too strong/BG too strong. Actually, the odds are high that you'd still be losing even if you had the monopoly on designing this stuff... so just stop it, it's painful to read this same old shit wrapped in a different paper every other week.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Killer Rabbit on September 18, 2012, 12:55:56 pm
let them cry...everyone use it (i was when i was playing) and every time when someone lost he blame CANADA or other shit. he will never admit i was worst and i need to inprove my PiViPi skrillllllex...
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Shangalar on September 18, 2012, 01:19:42 pm
Goddamn speech.

Amen to everything you've said.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Cyber Jesus on September 18, 2012, 02:52:40 pm
I would also like to report this ''dual log'' user
Pic:
May justice be served!
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: avv on September 18, 2012, 03:37:20 pm
Quote
Now, here's a good reason why the devs shouldn't even read this thread: every single time this community disagrees on something, there's a 99% chance somebody's pushing his faction's politics or even his own personal agenda.

So what if someone is pushing his own agenda if he has a point? When talking about mechanics it's pretty easy to point out flaws if there's something wrong. Things like realism, what makes sense, what's fun and what's reasonable are harder to discuss. Farming volume is a good example of what's reasonable. Instadeaths have to do with what's fun.

Quote
The punchline is simple - if you're losing, it's not due to FR/DL/crit too strong/BG too strong.

But you can't achieve victories with regular rate without them against teams who use them.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Nice_Boat on September 18, 2012, 03:52:49 pm
So what if someone is pushing his own agenda if he has a point? When talking about mechanics it's pretty easy to point out flaws if there's something wrong. Things like realism, what makes sense, what's fun and what's reasonable are harder to discuss. Farming volume is a good example of what's reasonable. Instadeaths have to do with what's fun.

Opinion =/= fact. All I've said was that you people input nothing but heavily biased opinions which is detrimental to the development of this game if taken seriously. Even if your intentions are honest, you still spend most of your gaming time on your faction's voice chat and since factions almost always tend to develop a rather homogenous set of views you still end up being biased and playing faction politics instead of providing objective input.

Oh, and I'm mercifully not even going to elaborate on the fact that every second person on these boards is pushing for shit that'd seriously impact basic game design, as if 2238 was still at the drawing board.

And no, I'm not at fault here because all I've been saying for those 3 long years was "if it works, leave it the hell alone".

But you can't achieve victories with regular rate without them against teams who use them.

These claims are always hilarious because we've never had more than a single session to play with a specific set of settings and rules. Basically, this game has never "matured" enough to show what's balanced and what isn't because it's been completely overhauled before it had a chance to develop like that every single time due to bitches who can't handle a few defeats whining about this and that or the devs deciding to randomly toss things around out of the blue.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: avv on September 18, 2012, 04:16:28 pm
Opinion =/= fact. All I've said that you people input nothing but heavily biased opinions which is detrimental to the development of this game if taken seriously. Even if your intentions are honest, you still spend most of your gaming time on your faction's voice chat and since factions almost always tend to develop a rather homogenous set of views you still end up being biased and playing faction politics instead of providing objective input.

So nobody is allowed to say anything regarding to balance and gameplay changes because they always have a biased agenda? Wouldn't it be easier for everyone to stop assuming what agenda people are hiding and concentrate what they actually say. False claims concerning gameplay mechanics are easy to point out anyway.

Quote
These claims are always hilarious because we've never had more than 6 months to play with a specific set of settings and rules. Basically, this game has never "matured" enough to show what's balanced and what isn't because it's been completely overhauled before it had a chance to develop like that every single time due to bitches who can't handle a few defeats whining about this and that or the devs deciding to randomly toss things around out of the blue.

But it has matured to a point where it can be said what players like and what they don't.
Could roughly say it like this: pvp is good or isn't at least worse when it doesn't have the following
- Second window
- Fast relog
- Hours of farming to get gear
- Npcs (mercs, slaves)
- Troll characters

Players who complain about these features often actually mean: "I want to play with a single character without any tryhard methods and have fair chances to win If I do my best and am willing to learn from mistakes. If not, I'll gtfo."
Then we can answer to the guy that he is just whining which results in him shrugging and leaving. We get to be right once again in the forums but end up wondering where the new and eager pvp teams are.




Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Nice_Boat on September 18, 2012, 04:35:09 pm
So nobody is allowed to say anything regarding to balance and gameplay changes because they always have a biased agenda? Wouldn't it be easier for everyone to stop assuming what agenda people are hiding and concentrate what they actually say. False claims concerning gameplay mechanics are easy to point out anyway.
If they were easy to point out there wouldn't be so many failed updates.

But it has matured to a point where it can be said what players like and what they don't.
Could roughly say it like this: pvp is good or isn't at least worse when it doesn't have the following
- Second window
- Fast relog
- Hours of farming to get gear
- Npcs (mercs, slaves)
- Troll characters
That's an opinion, not a fact. Besides second window and fast relog are parts of basic design of this game, doesn't matter whether intentionally or not. You'd have to scrap this entire server and start from scratch to get rid of them.

And that part about NPCs and troll chars... christ, man. That's what I'm talking about. You're sneaking in your personal opinion to get the game adjusted to your personal taste because you don't like them. Breaking news: some people do enjoy playing them. Removing this part of the game will likely make them quit, just like the countless people before them who threw in the towel due to this kind of shit you post. And if you were right and these characters were upsetting the game balance, everyone would be playing exclusively troll chars and merc commanders. Somehow this is not the case - and actually never was when all the previous forum witch hunts were in progress.

Players who complain about these features often actually mean: "I want to play with a single character without any tryhard methods and have fair chances to win If I do my best and am willing to learn from mistakes. If not, I'll gtfo."
Then we can answer to the guy that he is just whining which results in him shrugging and leaving. We get to be right once again in the forums but end up wondering where the new and eager pvp teams are.
No, what those people say is "I want a different game with a different set of rules. Give it to me now or else I gtfo." So yeah, the answer to that should always be "you don't like the game as it is, gtfo" with the exception being 90% of the community bitching at something (see the issue of Parley and how boring farming and crafting is). If you were listening to every dude who is like that you'd end up with a permanent state of instability, characters that took some time to level up going from viable to garbage mid-session etc... basically, you'd be where we are now and were before. Not that many of us left, bro. Somehow back in 2009 when things were more stable and the game was easier as far as getting gear is concerned there was more of us, bro.


Anyway, imagine being back in 2009 settings with your 2012 knowledge of the game, alliances etc. Which balance changes (which were deemed "absolutely necessary" at the time by the whiners) would be appropriate with this hindsight? Sneak nerf? But we've almost come full circle with that feature. BG nerf? But hey, people have learned that SG are the only viable weapon in some situations and despite all this time consuming tweaking the game hasn't really changed that much. And so on and so worth. Basically every time a large shift in tactics occurred it was due to players noticing something new, not due to those so-called tweaks. And some of those tweaks created problems that weren't there before because knee-jerk reactions tend to yield results like that. A large segment of 3 years of development effort wasted on bullshit to cater to a group of people who by definition will never be pleased... was it really worth it?
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: avv on September 18, 2012, 05:39:11 pm
If they were easy to point out there wouldn't be so many failed updates.

But rejecting something based on your personal assumption won't help either.

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That's an opinion, not a fact. Besides second window and fast relog are parts of basic design of this game, doesn't matter whether intentionally or not.

This is also just an opinion. I would say unintentional activity is always caused by failed or lacking features.

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You'd have to scrap this entire server and start from scratch to get rid of them.

I think this is because from the early beginning players who used to do this (years ago) didn't recognize how serious matter it is to fastrelog and dual log and kept doing it without reporting... I mean whining. So no chances to hinder the benefits were made. Of course it's too late now to do much without total overhauls.
And I bet when the issue was raised, if it was, it was suppressed as whining.

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And that part about NPCs and troll chars... christ, man. That's what I'm talking about. You're sneaking in your personal opinion to get the game adjusted to your personal taste because you don't like them.

Ye I don't like them. But there's a reason based on mechanics and balance behind this dislike. Trollcharacters are effective without gear, npc assistance takes a lot of time to prepare and is doomed to revolve around dual/fastrelog due to slow regear time. You don't just buy or enslave a pack of npcs in 2 minutes after death, like you regear a pvp char.

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Breaking news: some people do enjoy playing them.

That's likely because of using trollchars is free and fun, but wasteland is supposed to be harsh you remember. Free and fun isn't harsh.
Npc assistance gives victories, who wouldn't like that?

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Removing this part of the game will likely make them quit

Oh no. No more troll characters and mercpacks. Would it be a big impact if those never appeared again?
Plus think about how many players would start to play and participate when they didn't have to deal with those builds.

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And if you were right and these characters were upsetting the game balance, everyone would be playing exclusively troll chars and merc commanders.


Nope. And that's because playing these kind of builds is considered cheap by many. Even though it's effective, many players refuse to do it. It's about being ready to do what it takes for victory no matter the methods. There are many things that are doable and help to win but players simply don't want to do them and can only complain if someone else does and wins because of that. What would you do if some other team simply used ten packs of mercs per fight and had endless amount of fastrelogs and bombers? Would you try to outfarm them or simply state that "This is isn't worth it"?

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No, what those people say is "I want a different game with a different set of rules. Give it to me now or else I gtfo." So yeah, the answer to that should always be "you don't like the game as it is, gtfo" with the exception being 90% of the community bitching at something (see the issue of Parley and how boring farming and crafting is). If you were listening to every dude who is like that you'd end up with a permanent state of instability, characters that took some time to level up going from viable to garbage mid-session etc... basically, you'd be where we are now and were before. Not that many of us left, bro. Somehow back in 2009 when things were more stable and the game was easier as far as getting gear is concerned there was more of us, bro.

Players have expectations based on previous experiences and refuse to adapt or do it involuntarily. Others adapt to the changes fluently and community splits in terms of opinions.
So you're saying farming is the core evil? Remember that leveling alts, building bases, maintaining logistics and buying mercs is farming too. Guess all this should be faster then. But what's there to live for if nothing has a price?
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: T-888 on September 18, 2012, 05:40:44 pm
And that part about NPCs and troll chars... christ, man. That's what I'm talking about. You're sneaking in your personal opinion to get the game adjusted to your personal taste because you don't like them. Breaking news: some people do enjoy playing them. Removing this part of the game will likely make them quit, just like the countless people before them who threw in the towel due to this kind of shit you post. And if you were right and these characters were upsetting the game balance, everyone would be playing exclusively troll chars and merc commanders. Somehow this is not the case - and actually never was when all the previous forum witch hunts were in progress.

Your talking like you can measure likeness, i know for a fact that some players just quit because of these stupid AC trolls, it's my word against yours.

Current AC never should have been implemented in the first place, players said from the very beginning that it is a bad idea of the consequences not that their personal preference would be not to play them (it's been discussed so many times that these gearless players are no good for general gameplay and balance, a character witch doesn't have to loose anything, but cause problem to everyone else), if someone will quit because he leveled some character witch is unreasonable, OP etc. etc. it's his choice, i never did level up a sneaker SD burster/nader, you don't have to be a genius to put together two simple things that those features are just not worth it for a character to become useless mid session.

But rejecting something based on your personal assumption won't help either.

Yes, this is very funny, so by Boats logic we should never provide our opinion on game mechanics and try to build some general consensus, because everything is always fine and we shouldn't do something because some players might not like it and it's selfish, despite a large part might approve.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Nice_Boat on September 18, 2012, 06:07:52 pm
But rejecting something based on your personal assumption won't help either.
It's not an assumption, there is hard data behind what I've said - there was a fair number of updates the devs backtracked on, ergo they were failed. If there was a large number of failed updates, pointing out flawed mechanics isn't easy, or at least you weren't there to point the devs in the right direction. Oh wait, you actually were, but it still happened.

This is also just an opinion. I would say unintentional activity is always caused by failed or lacking features.
No, this is a fact. Basic design by definition is basic, ie. determining how the details look like. 2238 is a game designed around extremely specialized characters, so basically it forces players to have numerous alts to be effective. If you remove alting and dual logs, the rest of the game stops being playable. I mean yeah, you could argue that this "stops being playable" part is an opinion, but then again the nature of players has proven me right when they dual logged and fast relogged en masse back when it was punishable by ban.

I think this is because from the early beginning players who used to do this (years ago) didn't recognize how serious matter it is to fastrelog and dual log and kept doing it without reporting... I mean whining. So no chances to hinder the benefits were made. Of course it's too late now to do much without total overhauls.
And I bet when the issue was raised, if it was, it was suppressed as whining.
The issue was raised numerous times and the devs always got the same reply - it's the most effective way of playing the game for a player who wants to win (ie. survive longer than other players, especially in confrontational scenarios). The devs chose to manhandle players creating a rather arbitrary set of rules enforced by GMs instead of altering the game design to facilitate other styles of play. Personally, I think that allowing FR/DL is their way of saying that they were sort of wrong back then.

Ye I don't like them. But there's a reason based on mechanics and balance behind this dislike. Trollcharacters are effective without gear, npc assistance takes a lot of time to prepare and is doomed to revolve around dual/fastrelog due to slow regear time. You don't just buy or enslave a pack of npcs in 2 minutes after death, like you regear a pvp char.

That's likely because of using trollchars is free and fun, but wasteland is supposed to be harsh you remember. Free and fun isn't harsh.
Npc assistance gives victories, who wouldn't like that?
So yeah, shit probably requires some balancing. But hey, no balancing is possible because everything is changing on a monthly basis because the devs are making twitch changes to cater to hysterical player outbursts. Going at it one thing at a time would be a good start, instead we've got an angry mob screaming about FR, DL, critchance, AC trolls etc. Guess what happens when they try to tackle all this stuff at once? Yeah, another clusterfuck.

Oh no. No more troll characters and mercpacks. Would it be a big impact if those never appeared again?
Plus think about how many players would start to play and participate when they didn't have to deal with those builds.
If you believe these builds are so strong, why don't you play them exclusively yourself?
 
Nope. And that's because playing these kind of builds is considered cheap by many. Even though it's effective, many players refuse to do it. It's about being ready to do what it takes for victory no matter the methods. There are many things that are doable and help to win but players simply don't want to do them and can only complain if someone else does and wins because of that. What would you do if some other team simply used ten packs of mercs per fight and had endless amount of fastrelogs and bombers? Would you try to outfarm them or simply state that "This is isn't worth it"?
Wait, so you're saying that in a highly competitive community people aren't playing with what they consider maximum effectiveness because of some unwritten code of chivalry? That's quite a stretch there given how assholish people can get in their choice of tactics here. The fact is nobody plays exclusively merc commanders, while back when militia was OP everyone was exploiting the militia system. That's the key difference between a broken mechanic and a mechanic that requires some fine-tuning perhaps. Otherwise you're just talking about your personal preferences.

Players have expectations based on previous experiences and refuse to adapt or do it involuntarily. Others adapt to the changes fluently and community splits in terms of opinions.
So you're saying farming is the core evil? Remember that leveling alts, building bases, maintaining logistics and buying mercs is farming too. Guess all this should be faster then. But what's there to live for if nothing has a price?
I think that this issue is beyond the scope of this discussion. Do note the key difference between farming for gear and farming for alts, bases and cars. Bases, alts and cars stay and striving to get them is part of the early/mid game during every session - you get your setup, you focus on endgame - ie. the town control, roleplay or whatever else it is you seek. Meanwhile, farming for gear is a constant - you have to get your gear first to do anything else, creating an unhealthy (yeah, that's an opinion, albeit a common one) ratio of work:fun in game that is by definition supposed to be fun.






Your talking like you can measure likeness, i know for a fact that some players just quit because of these stupid AC trolls, it's my word against yours.

Current AC never should have been implemented in the first place, players said from the very beginning that it is a bad idea of the consequences not that their personal preference would be not to play them (it's been discussed so many times that these gearless players are no good for general gameplay and balance, a character witch doesn't have to loose anything, but cause problem to everyone else), if someone will quit because he leveled some character witch is unreasonable, OP etc. etc. it's his choice, i never did level up a sneaker SD burster/nader, you don't have to be a genius to put together two simple things that those features are just not worth it for a character to become useless mid session.

You, sir, fail at reading comprehension. If you look hard enough at what I posted you'll find a reason why your reply is completely redundant.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: avv on September 18, 2012, 07:20:48 pm
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If you believe these builds are so strong, why don't you play them exclusively yourself?

Because I don't want to. That's why.

About everything else: looks like we're fucked - as always.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: naossano on September 18, 2012, 08:27:21 pm
Fast relog/dual log is a feature on this new cession. there is no point banning people who use it.

It's like banning people who levelled a thief....
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: T-888 on September 18, 2012, 08:42:47 pm
You, sir, fail at reading comprehension. If you look hard enough at what I posted you'll find a reason why your reply is completely redundant.

Your right, i did miss some points, but still defending those trolls is not someone should do. :)

I don't play those builds because i just don't see the point, it's the ultimate scout, ultimate bomber, ultimate looter, where is the fun in that?
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Nice_Boat on September 18, 2012, 08:54:38 pm
Your right, i did miss some points, but still defending those trolls is not someone should do. :)

I don't play those builds because i just don't see the point, it's the ultimate scout, ultimate bomber, ultimate looter, where is the fun in that?

I'm not really defending the AC trolls, I'm just bashing the attitude some players seem to have. I think people should stop being so pushy about controversial issues and the devs should stop getting pushed around when there's a split in the community and start listening when the community speaks more or less as one. But to be perfectly honest, I'd be happy if they just nerfed the AC builds and left the PvP alone like forever (or at least until some really game ruining build/glitch gets discovered). I mean a lot of people would probably disagree, but even those heavyhanded bullshit builds have some charm to them when they aren't so hard to hit, they tend to create hilarious situations when you're rushing to the help of a comrade who's getting his ass kicked in some dark alley by a jumpsuit wearing gentleman... I mean it's almost like the usual evening in the Bronx ;D

Anyhow, the way things are right now the economy is broken, there are few quests, leveling up and getting gear is all about boring grind while it should be about dynamically generated quests and soloing encounters later on... the list goes on and on, PvP really is fine as it is and the TC system is back to what made everyone more or less happy or at least didn't make anyone too angry. Imagine all the stuff we could have by now if the devs focused on adding to the game instead of playing one step forward two steps back with all the PvP mechanics... pretty saddening, really.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Flick on September 19, 2012, 02:40:23 am
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If you remove alting and dual logs, the rest of the game stops being playable
I ever played without fast relog and dual logs and it was fun. Lately, 'cause withdrawal symptoms from Fonline, I tried to persuade some friends to come back but none of them wanted try a game where you need at least 5 alt for fight ...
I fear that this will end with hamper the chance of new players ( oh I nearly forgot, this is not a problem, it is a feature).
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: Nice_Boat on September 19, 2012, 05:16:16 pm
So yeah, I've played PvP in Dark Souls with a naked build using only a dagger and it was fun too, doesn't mean it makes you effective. Basically, you misunderstood the argument.

Besides you don't even need 5 alts, most people use about 3 and the time it takes to level them up is considerably less than reaching endgame in basically every other commercial mmorpg that's currently on the market. Anyway unless you've got 10+ friends or good alliance capability you'd ragequit anyway because the TC design allows only for the top dogs to have a shot at winning - best you could do with less would be an occasional backstab or hunting bluesuits around NCR. Another reason why this game desperately needs an arena style PvP mode with players/characters-per-side cap. And no, I'm not talking Hinkley because the risk/reward factor is nonexistant making it detached from the rest of the game. I don't know, maybe implement another Hinkley where you bring your own gear and fight gang-on-gang Thunderdome style? Wouldn't even be that hard to make a backstory and you could always repurpose the Ares interior map at first if you don't have a free mapper at hand.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: T-888 on September 19, 2012, 05:36:24 pm
Nice_Boat, we both know you can never have enough alts(the more the better, it only further increases the gap between those who spend more time on this game), i do agree that the endgame is reachable much more faster than in other games when it comes to leveling characters, but the logistics behind them, ugh ... that is worth to talk about. Example, i liked when armors didn't get useless after fixing them 2 times, after that usually it is another repairing material, but then again Solar was talking about armors not dropping resistances till 50% deterioration witch would be pretty fine on current system. Nobody will work on that except Solar, who knows when he gets back.

There was this domination mode mentioned somewhere by the developers(Solar?), well just some dream currently as it seems. Same principle applies what you are pointing out, somewhat balanced in terms of players from both sides, own gear, well objectives speak for themselves since it is domination.

Bottom line, there is nobody motivated enough to do this from 2238 team, roughly quoting one of the developers, "it takes shitload of organization, stop."
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: brad smalls on October 15, 2012, 05:01:23 am
Maybe the solution is to let us have more then one client open? other servers like Goon-Haven allow it.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: T-888 on October 15, 2012, 08:57:12 am
Nothing worse can happen ( we already have PvP like on Requiem with multiple alts per multiple windows, here it is doable by one client ), it seems we will pretty much never see something to prevent FR, until then i don't see how that will make a difference, some players will not be able use the word "cheaters" as excuse and maybe suddenly change their opinion about it all by start using multiple clients themselves like someone offered them a bag of candy to do so.
Title: Re: Sandokan proxy
Post by: brad smalls on October 15, 2012, 11:55:20 pm
well there is not much harm it can do in PvP i mean it saves the few seconds it takes to relogg but it can be alot easier to taxi and farm with this feature and most gangs do it anyway so i don't see the point in leaving it on.