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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: Josh on September 30, 2011, 04:59:21 am

Title: New Skill System
Post by: Josh on September 30, 2011, 04:59:21 am
[Backstory] So I was bored in class and wishing I could play fonline, so I decided to think about more multipurpose builds when it dawned on me that I couldn't even remember half the skills available due to uselessness. And then I remembered a compliment I received from a moderator on a suggestion about fusing some skills together. The gears started turning and by next block I had made a very rough draft of a possible alternative skill section. [/Backstory]

NOTE: Stats would remain the same in this system, however they would affect skills differently in some cases.


Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: Jotisz on September 30, 2011, 10:14:28 am
Personally I don't really like the suggestion if the system must change I would much rather see it like this.
For ranged weapons
Handguns (all one handed gun laser pistol too)
Rifles (all rifle be it fn fall or sniper I would add the laser rifle here too)
Heavy weapons (plasma and the bigguns)
Close combat
Brawling (all hand to hand fight include throwing of knives and spears)
Martial art (to unlock the other punch and kick types)
Other skill merges
Demolation (granades bombs traps etc)
Survival (outdoorsman and some minor healing)
Medical (first aid and doctor skill)

Still even though this above one is my idea I still prefer the existing system and I think others do too.
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: OskaRus on September 30, 2011, 11:08:44 am
And one more skill
Demotivation - skill to ruin others game, troll, make them cry and ragequit. xD


Otherwise we dont need to change SPECIAL at all. It works fine. If some skills are not used at all? Remove them or let them there and never look at them.
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: kraskish on September 30, 2011, 11:31:45 am
so intelligence trait would be useless? More powerbuilds here we go!
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: Josh on September 30, 2011, 12:38:14 pm
@Jotisz, the point of merging is too make fewer options so people spend it on more then one area of skills...

@OskaRus, yes this is why I said the stat system would remain the same but have skills like unarmed and such tied directly in it.

@krashkishm I only gave unarmed as an example because its easy to make a formula for that people won't argue over. Intelligence helps determine speech/barter, SP gain, and the base stats of basically all the non-combat skills.

@Rat, first note how you only mention guns in there since unarmed/melee just isn't useful to invest in either as separate options or lumped in one. Second, more versatile use just requires a non-specialized build, you can use both sniping and burst mode as long as you don't get fast shot, you might not be successful against specialized power builds but you can do it. Repair has a use now, while speech and barter will never be of high enough priority to dedicate points to. Whether or not sneak needs to be reworked isn't being discussed in this thread. Right now the reason people are so different is because it is better to have a char with a build dedicated to each activity then to have a mixture. If you believe people becoming more generalized a bad thing think of how it would reduce the need for alting.
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: RavenousRat on September 30, 2011, 12:50:37 pm
Instead of merging skills, you could suggest new ways how to use all of them. All combat skills can be versatile, simply need more balancing, adding pulse weapons to ignore laser/plasma resistance, but of course they should be much weaker than now, making bozar non-rare weapon to see BG snipers, make turbo-plasma weaker but do bursts instead of more range + less AP per shot, etc. This way any SGer/BGer/EWer could be sniper, single fast shoter or burster. About repair/science/lockpick/speech/gambling, it can't be used now properly because of lack of content yet, not because there's no way for imagination how to make them work. Reworking sneak skill to make it useful on 100%, 150% and 200%, not only on 300%+ghost by adding new factors affecting success like shadows/obstacles. And there are much more ways.
Merging skills will only make all players more similar to each other.
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: Reiniat on September 30, 2011, 09:37:30 pm
Instead of merging skills, you could suggest new ways how to use all of them. All combat skills can be versatile, simply need more balancing, adding pulse weapons to ignore laser/plasma resistance, but of course they should be much weaker than now, making bozar non-rare weapon to see BG snipers, make turbo-plasma weaker but do bursts instead of more range + less AP per shot, etc. This way any SGer/BGer/EWer could be sniper, single fast shoter or burster. About repair/science/lockpick/speech/gambling, it can't be used now properly because of lack of content yet, not because there's no way for imagination how to make them work. Reworking sneak skill to make it useful on 100%, 150% and 200%, not only on 300%+ghost by adding new factors affecting success like shadows/obstacles. And there are much more ways.
Merging skills will only make all players more similar to each other.
I wanted to write almost ecxactly the same stuff  :)
Also, please reconsider my old suggestion about:
--change name of Traps to Explosives and include all types of Grenades, Rocket Launcher and Dynamite, and Molotov.
--Kill the Throwing skill, all thrownable (but not blownable) guns will go to Melee Weapons
--Add the goddamned pulse guns!!!

Original treath here:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=17215.msg142081#msg142081
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: Johnnybravo on September 30, 2011, 10:55:28 pm
Quote
. About repair/science/lockpick/speech/gambling, it can't be used now properly because of lack of content yet, not because there's no way for imagination how to make them work.
Not true, some are already well used, others will never fit mmo game.
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: RavenousRat on September 30, 2011, 11:10:18 pm
others will never fit mmo game.
It can fit mmo, if it'll affect only user or can be used in some instances/quests which have fixed number of players. This way alting for those skill will be useless, like making repair skill passive and affect speed of deterioration and active only to remove force fields and do other things in some events where your pure-repair alt will be useless as you'll need to do many things there and you can't leave/enter location at any time. The same can be done with any other skills.
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: Johnnybravo on October 01, 2011, 01:56:29 am
But repair is cool, speech or gambling is not.
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: kraskish on October 01, 2011, 03:14:35 am

@krashkishm I only gave unarmed as an example because its easy to make a formula for that people won't argue over. Intelligence helps determine speech/barter, SP gain, and the base stats of basically all the non-combat skills.

So basically INTELLIGENCE will become obsolete skill IF I can put ALL to COMBAT SKILLS (because as u say INT wont affect combat skills) = ultra powerbuilds
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: Eternauta on October 01, 2011, 03:44:56 am
I don't think I'd support changing the Skill system unless it's something like what they've done in New Vegas or what Surf's gonna do in What Remains.

I kinda agree with what RavenousRat said... Maybe some skills will always be a lot more useful than others but that's what happened in the original games, too. A completely balanced system where all skills are equally important and useful sounds rather impossible and, in this particular game, would probably encourage alting anyway.
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: Josh on October 01, 2011, 05:37:28 am
So basically INTELLIGENCE will become obsolete skill IF I can put ALL to COMBAT SKILLS (because as u say INT wont affect combat skills) = ultra powerbuilds
ffs read the post then try to comprehend!
"I only gave unarmed as an example because its easy to make a formula for that people won't argue over. Intelligence helps determine speech/barter, SP gain, and the base stats of basically all the non-combat skills."
I said that INT wouldn't be a factor in the independently increasing Unarmed Skill, and that it would be useful in almost all the Non-combat Skills. Not that the Non-Combat Skills would be the only skills using it. :P Energy would definitely rely on it and the others might too to a lesser degree.
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: kraskish on October 02, 2011, 01:26:34 am
ffs read the post then try to comprehend!

I read lol

I said that INT wouldn't be a factor in the independently increasing Unarmed Skill, and that it would be useful in almost all the Non-combat Skills. Not that the Non-Combat Skills would be the only skills using it. :P Energy would definitely rely on it and the others might too to a lesser degree.

this equals

So basically INTELLIGENCE will become obsolete skill IF I can put ALL to COMBAT SKILLS (because as u say INT wont affect combat skills) = ultra powerbuilds

Youre saying INT wont be needed for COMBAT skills. So Ill make 10 PE 10 AGI 10 ST and 10 Luck character - Heavy guns or Sniper (more or less). It would make the game unbalanced.
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: Josh on October 02, 2011, 05:24:04 am
Look here,  INTELLIGENCE WILL AFFECT ENERGY WEAPONS! IT WILL ALSO HAVE A PART IN THE OTHER COMBAT SKILLS JUST NOT AS BIG OF ONE!! do you get it now?
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: kraskish on October 02, 2011, 03:03:29 pm
Look here,  INTELLIGENCE WILL AFFECT ENERGY WEAPONS! IT WILL ALSO HAVE A PART IN THE OTHER COMBAT SKILLS JUST NOT AS BIG OF ONE!! do you get it now?

Yes I get it. I read the part about energy weapons. Dude, chill down. Either way your suggestion would make this game more unbalanced. The way it is now you need to sacrifice some points in SPECIAL and its hard to make ultimate killing machine (not speaking of drug chars). With your suggestion "Lesser role of INT in combat skill" People would run with BG and SG killing machines more often.

UNDERSTAND? NO? Ill give u an example:

Its impossible to do a powerbuild like this "10 PE 10 AGI 10 ST and 10 Luck" NOW - why? INT would be 1 or little and not enough for getting high % of skill

WITH YOUR SUGGESTION you would be (to a higher degree) able to achieve the build above. SG and BG would pwn EW chars cuz they dont need as much INT (so they can spend it on PE to give range, ST for carry weight, etc)...
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: Josh on October 02, 2011, 05:32:18 pm
Its impossible to do a powerbuild like this "10 PE 10 AGI 10 ST and 10 Luck" NOW - why? INT would be 1 or little and not enough for getting high % of skill
Why would it be any different with this system? Int will still make skill points for the all the combat/non-combat skills. Only the base value would be higher with the build you described. Lets say you make the build above, big guns will increase naturally to a set value just through leveling up. However, if you lack intelligence you would only be getting 80% of whatever that value is, AND you would not have the skill points to raise it very high.
Maybe we should use examples for these situations as "INT DON'T MATTER" just sounds like you're selectively reading the post...
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: kraskish on October 03, 2011, 12:48:31 am
Id read the 1st post and further posts and havent found the answer until the very last one. 1st post was more about classification and merging/discarding/rebranding skills. Then u mentioned Unarmed formula, briefly mentioned SG, BG and EW, where u mentioned INT. So I drew the conclusion INT is not as needed in SG and BG...

Well after polishing your idea... I must say... EW would be too strong then. What would change is that EW players would get a bonus for being EW, skill points so they could spend it on FA/OutD, which is easy for them to achieve anyway (need INT for specs)

1. Whats the point of changing balance (sort of) we got now to what you propose? Less alting? Or more rampage?

2. Number of skills is hardcoded AFAIK. You proposed so many megers and no new skills (you can rename skills to introduce new in their place so the number is OK) which makes this suggestion useless.
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: Johnnybravo on October 03, 2011, 02:10:39 am
Look here,  INTELLIGENCE WILL AFFECT ENERGY WEAPONS! IT WILL ALSO HAVE A PART IN THE OTHER COMBAT SKILLS JUST NOT AS BIG OF ONE!! do you get it now?
Wait like make energy weapon base value increased by int?
Well not that it gonna change anything but first few levels.
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: Josh on October 03, 2011, 04:08:52 am
Wait like make energy weapon base value increased by int?
Well not that it gonna change anything but first few levels.
Kind of...
Right now the base values you get at starting are the base values you have at finish if you don't invest anything. With this system the base values would grow as you level to a set value, say 100, reaching the value only if you had 10 in all the component pieces if the formula. If a formula for say Medicine was based on PE and IN like so:
Medicine=(LEVEL)*[2(PE)/10+2(IN)/10]+16
 and you had 7 PE and 4 IN, then you you would get ~50 outdoorsman when you are level 21.

Even with non-optimal stats you still get decent results for the different skills. I feel that this would reduce alting and make all the skills useful.
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: Eternauta on October 03, 2011, 04:31:14 am
Instead of such a thing, I'd support something like capping all skills at 200% and reworking the formulae to make 100% work like current 150%, more or less. This is very similar to what RavenousRat said anyway.
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: kraskish on October 03, 2011, 02:38:10 pm
To discuss this thread youd need to present more formulas. I still do think its impossible to implement (number of skills that you proposed is less than original)
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: Cold_Fusion on October 03, 2011, 03:58:43 pm
No to any new skill systems.

Current one is good and was working since almost 15 years now. Problem is with skills having no implemented USE for them.

If you want to simplify it, then remove charisma and luck because these are useless for powerbuilds, then remove non-combat perks, then remove chat coz "wasteland is harsh" and people shoo each-other on sight anyway, finally get rid of all distractions and just leave a huge "BURST" button in the middle of the screen. Whoever pushes it first wins anyway.
Only valid means of communications would be leaving corpses arranged into offensive symbols.

 ::)
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: Johnnybravo on October 03, 2011, 04:38:26 pm
Removing charisma is not that bad idea as it appears, but on other hand it was in original game.

Adding some more base points to certain skills is definitely good idea (eg. repair could be as high as unarmed for average character or even higher, and nobody would still care, because increasing it a little further wouldn't be that painful.

Limiting skills to 200% while still requiring high amount of skill points won't achieve much, you will have to redo everything in process (like with 200 skill it won't be possible to hit with sniper rifle at range, even with max perception).

I think if the most important thing would really be making low investments in skills effective (already made a post about it, and as the example of the best designed skill in terms of progression I've chosen First Aid) and as well removing or changing skills that will not ever do something meaningful (barter, speech, gamble) to make the game more user friendly.
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: Josh on October 03, 2011, 09:16:18 pm
To discuss this thread you'd need to present more formulas. I still do think its impossible to implement (number of skills that you proposed is less than original)
I was kind of hoping someone else would pick up on this and start adding formulas that they think of so we could discuss those...
Anyhow I'd rather play the game with friends rather than work on perfecting a skill system that probably won't get adopted.
Title: Re: New Skill System
Post by: Josh on October 29, 2011, 12:40:31 am
I spent some of my limited free time to make this interactive skill system. While it isn't exactly Opera's FCP, it gets the job done. Feel privileged  8)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au3uyZ3bCPXzdHRUN0w5UEN2ZEZNWGhsQlZjNjBrSmc (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Au3uyZ3bCPXzdHRUN0w5UEN2ZEZNWGhsQlZjNjBrSmc)
Please do not mess up formulas for others, only change the non-gray boxes.