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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => General Game Discussion => Topic started by: Surf on February 07, 2010, 06:03:38 am
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Removed it from an other topic, since it was OT.
It starts with: http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=1564.msg13396#msg13396.
Suggestions: 2782 Posts in 258 Topics
I am saying it not just once, it is NOTHING AGAINST YOU DEVS! It's just a perspective of a few ones are near to give up. Gave up the help, gave up the whole game in itself. But why? Let me explain.
Remember the conversation we had before via PM,Badger? ;)
Before you read that - it isn't meant to be an insult or something. Just a thing some people (including me) noticed during the past time. You devs are - you have to admit - very quiet when it comes to interaction with the players. It's getting better the last few days, you hired more GMs which is good. But there is still the "what the fuck are they doing the whole time" thing.
Of course fixing major bugs ist the thing to go, because I know it for myself - scripting etc. ain't that easy. But as been said - DIRECT communication between you devs and the playerbase is as good as none. We could shit out "omg awesome" suggestions the whole day, only thing devs post there is "thread locked." or nothing.
Then, people are complaining about missing stuff. Of course you have to fiddle around the engine, no doubt. But why are you ignoring people who actually wrote stuff, shared thoughts, made a lot of work in order to help you out? Especially with quests. I know 4 people here on the forum who made quests and dialogues which are really good. I read 2-3 and I liked them, but everyone says "no response from the devs at all, it seems they're ignoring me." Even questions for the dialoguewritertool you use for FOnline are ignored.
I know you guys are really nice and ok, I know at least 3 of you half "personal" and I would always go for a drink with you, but when it comes to FOnline you seem to be a bit , uhm, "excentric". It's more "God, hope I don't say a wrong word, else the dev would ignore me" then "Dang! Gotta help these fellas out!". What I don't understand, why don't recruit more people to the "inner circle of highly appreciated people, others are less than mud"? Even if it is a dumb man's work, there is no way to help you guys out than donating money... And you have to admit - if people who are willing to help get ignored, why should they help? Why should they even help with balancing or beta testing? I don't get the point in "wasting" my money for a game, where everyone gives a shit about things I want to help with. And isn't that sad? Of course I don't expect to "LOL I GAVE MA MONEY NOUW ITS MA GAME!!!!111" - it would just be ok if a person would care, that some people trying to help this "elitist circle of holy devs" out. Don't get me wrong, I like you. And you have to pay for the server. Hell! I would even pay for you if his was a closed beta. But the interaction is shit. It's pure shit and you know that. Now it's up to you, clarify that you're not some egocentric assholes, you're really nice people. And that's also a problem. People think you're shitheads, and it isn't so. They think you don't give a fuck because of the lacking communication. I would highly recommend hiring more GMs ore at least some "autorities" where players can give they're questions to, or for people interested in helping you out with the technical side of the game. But it feels like a system, where you only could say a word when coming upon a "blueblooded" origin...
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GMs don't fix bugs, the new GMs are just noob GMs so they can't go solve people's problems until they're used to it. Give 'em a break. More GMs isn't the way to go until the player-base considerably rises, #2238 is already retarded with so many at the moment.
And damn do I hate to tell the truth at this time.
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Devs have said that they do read the suggestions, maybe not all devs do but some do. Besides, there are suggestions made by players that have been implemented. For example as simple things as "use on" feature in sledge was community based. Radios on caravans and reputation getting lower when you shoot caravans was community based. So was less deadly crit tables. Things do get implemented and if devs read a honestly good suggestion, they are people too and get impressed by other people's visions.
I'd like to see a little more communication between players about work in progress features. If devs told what plans they were going to implement, the playerbase could discuss whether or not it would work. For example devs told us that there is going to be tracking feature and told how it's going to work. It was mainly greeted with acception, it just had some bugs/weirdness and was put to ice to wait re-release. Then there's "parley". It suddenly just came, everyone hated it and was removed pretty quick. If devs had asked community before even scripting the feature, it would have been disliked and thrown to dumpster right away. Asking community can spare devs' time.
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actually all i would want is them to share information about how things work in here... they shared some but its lots left that players must just "guess"
quests ? look just recently the slaver q bugged , it was there for long time and suddenly the chat option was mia .. dunno what was wrong and how fixed but quests are waaay off priority. Maybe idd players make nice quest suggestions , maybe they do save them to use it at later time , it would shure be good to hear they liked it but i think they might just ignore quests now with having alot of stuff to work on now . I also belive players ignroe quests - too few , low exp , reawrds easy to lose ... its nothing strange rly in plany of mmo's if you can bear the grind its bette...
and finally i dont belive players rly give up coz devs dont listen - its mainly due to how easy it is to lose stuff and how hard it is to get the higher levels ...
old days i played a game , it had two servers - one soft where players couldnt pvp unless both wanted , and the other one with full pvp and item looting ... soft one had 1000 players and the hard one maybe 200 iwth majority siting at max lv ...
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Before you read that - it isn't meant to be an insult or something. Just a thing some people (including me) noticed during the past time. You devs are - you have to admit - very quiet when it comes to interaction with the players.
I personally don't plan to change this. Interaction is not easy, takes time. I would surely use some community manager - someone that's between lazy devs, and the players, it's hard job, so far no one applied :P
I don't get the point in "wasting" my money for a game, where everyone gives a shit about things I want to help with.
Please, let's not mix donating money for server machine with paying for a game. Money is always delicate matter, nothing good can came from this. And should the ones who donated demand more from devs, now that would be unfair.
Even questions for the dialoguewritertool you use for FOnline are ignored.
Wish I was that easy. Using dialog editor and writing something in it, is only first step in actually making something. It requires few steps to perform some integration, so person working on it would have to become 100% team member. I don't recall anyone applying, rather than saying: "Hey, I can write some dialog. I can make some map. And then I will leave rest for you to integrate" - now that does not sound like real help. Especially where many players just want to use it, as a mean to introduce their content into the game (yes, majority of those maps are bases).
but when it comes to FOnline you seem to be a bit , uhm, "excentric".
I wish I wasn't. But being in such situation changes people. So yes, I'm not denying it really looks like we're excentric.
I'd like to see a little more communication between players about work in progress features. If devs told what plans they were going to implement, the playerbase could discuss whether or not it would work.
Again, I wish it was that simple. Even some suggestions causes flames before I even notice them being posted. Then I see how playerbase reacted to such suggestion, and well...chances for thinking about it are lesser...
Ok, in the same vein you've posted that you've got nothing against us - I'm saying, it's not like I disagree, I wish it was that simple.
PS.
Some small info at the end - from the beginning of the project, there was like 5 scripters who applied for a "job". They resigned before even writing single script. So, if someone by any chance wants to join, consider this - what help is this if we lose time on introducing someone that is gonna vanish soon?
PS2. It's not like I am rejecting any help (especially dialog writing). It's needed. But also small note - best combination is if person not only can write, but also can integrate this stuff, thinks a bit 'technically' (aka 'modder' personality).
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I think you actually get a remarkably high amount of interaction with Devs.
As for discussing up coming features, these things take a long time to get done and have a not insignificant chance of being scrapped. If players are getting frustrated at the current situation they would likely be a lot worse if they saw everything that could be done: "Why aren't you doing X!"
Also, its a lot easier saying "Heres an idea, I'll do it" vs spending the hours and hours (and hours) actually needed to get even a simple thing going. Its the same as being a GM, if people knew what a frustrating job it was I doubt there would be anyone asking about becoming one :P
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Well I always thougth that there should be a list of "FOnline2238 needs YOU. Things you can help in" topic sticked somewhere. Yeah a lot of people think that loosly throwed idea is enough. And some people are the typical hayfire type of helper. They may start something but when they realize the 80-20 rule they just get bored and stop. But there are people that can really contribute but just don't know how. Scripters, 2D artists, 3D artists, writers, and serious testers that may use their time to try and find bugs in things you tell them to look at.
How can people know if they have sufficient knowledge to help in scripting if they didn't ever see any part of the code used. If it's possible to paste even a simple quest like the "bring Buster a pack of cigarettes" quest code people may see if they can understand how it works and know if they can write their own. My english is really shitty. And my writing skills are crap too, even in polish. But I guess I could take a well written quest design with dialogs done and code it. Yet I never used Angel Script. It would take some time to know it. Like you said, a modder's personality is needed. But it's way easier to creativly copy someone else work then to learn from scratch. To make a quest I need to know how to use npc's dialogue and make checks of diffrent things here and there. And after some time working on an example you got the knowledge to make your own.
To know if I can contribute significantly I lack is an example of the code used and means to test my own work. Is there a possibility to provide that? If you waste an afternoon on this little thing you may notice that it will sort out the men from the boys without any more time of your own wasted.
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But there is still the "what the fuck are they doing the whole time" thing.
Posting lolcats in chat and eating savoy cabbage.
/Edit: About discussing stuff, I always have that TLA-picture in my head. Discussing and arguing days and weeks and pages over pages about one single idea. You can kill even the best thing in this way.
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I don't know what to say here. The players aren't exactly unified in what they want. But even if they were, I couldn't see it having any effect on what the devs are working on. The devs are a pretty closed bunch. A thread with a huge amount of player activity won't see devs do much more than correcting facts. It'd be interesting to actually hear what their attitude or vision about things like PvP. But we don't. You don't need a community manager to say, "I think PvP should be dominated by high levels, not everyone is meant to have a chance" or "We're not interested in adding PvE, we'd like most combat to involve players".
I'd argue that the game is stagnating. We've got players, we've got features, but there hasn't been anything to get excited about in a long while. The game isn't going anywhere new, nor has anything different been tried in a long while. Most of the changes are bug-fixes or brahmin based, and the changes that aren't don't have any real impact on the average game experience. And I don't think anything as significant or game-changing as the 'Create your own faction' feature was, is in the works.
The game isn't going to die, no. There's plenty of die-hard fans that'll keep FOnline populated. The same people that just were grinding cash and xp over and over in closed even though they knew it was going to be wiped over and over. They'll play the game no matter what.
You need fresh blood, a new vision, a new team leader, or something. Because at the moment, what I can see is a group of skilled and capable people, who are clearly committed to their project, just tinkering because they've got nothing else to do and no clear direction.
Just take combat, or PvP, or quests, or PvE and run with it. Find one particular aspect of gameplay that's important but neglected, and focus on it as a team. Work out how you can make PvP accessible and fun for more players, and start experimenting. Start messing with melee and unarmed, see what works. There's a whole bunch of stuff that has barely been touched. We're still pretty close to vanilla F2 combat in a multiplayer game.
I don't know. Take this guy. (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=1564.0) He was a capable coder, with both interesting and relevant ideas. He had vision, and obviously cared about the game enough to write a damn novel about how it could be worked on. But the dev response was to just go through each point he made and tell him why he's wrong. Nothing was of interest or taken onboard. The poor guy may as well have been arguing with a dining room table. The devs have already decided they know what's best, because they're the devs. If that guy knew what he was talking about, he'd be a dev. Obviously.
It's nothing personal. Like he said, it's your game and it's your rules. You've built a game you like and that's about all you're going to do. I can't fault you, but I'm just sad you've put so much effort into something and aren't taking it as far as you can go with it.
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In my opinion, players should stop wating for the devs to find some ways to have fun, they have too much bugfix to focus on one particular aspect like quests, for instance. Create your own quests, your own events, I'm pretty sure we have enough role-players/PvP players here to have fun.
Maybe the server needs more players. Maybe people shouldn't spend all their time in NCR... I don't know.
I know what you mean, Badger, but I think it's just a beta, there're too many things to fix before we could really enjoy this game, we have to be patient and find some ways to have fun by ourselves.
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Now it's up to you, clarify that you're not some egocentric assholes, you're really nice people. And that's also a problem. People think you're shitheads, and it isn't so.
Maybe we could organise a small party for everyone somewhere in Europe, so we can meet in personal and truly get to know each other?
On a more serious note, as scypior said - it's not that simple. As always, the devs are just human beings, prone to mistakes, real-life obligations and lack of time. Still, I'm quite amazed the group like this one celebrated their first anniversary a while ago and being able to keep working on a stuff as complicated as this game right now is, yet to keep their sanity.
Offering help is a noble deed, and I personally want to express my gratitude to everyone willing to do / have done so. However, implementing even the smallest bit of work to the current clockwork may have effects like tornado on a card castle. Since we're in this together for ~1 year, it's easier to prevent this happenening when we try to add something new, but it happens occasionally nonetheless. Then you can see 10 new bug reports in the "Bugs" section. You don't wanna know how time-consuming fixing those bugs may be.
It's just a small part of the global picture, read scypior's post for a few more. Eventually, if I may add my personal opinion: this team evolved. People joined, left, stayed, gone for a month then got back... All of the current members were forced to take a certain role (or more roles) in the team and change their way of working to suit the development in general. The team reached a certain point of balance, which is a product of hard work over a period of time and can be ruined quite easily. So - no - there is no developer's eliticism. It's just the way it works, and it becomes more clear once you jump into those shoes. You may say it is somewhat excentric, but it's just another attribute among many others one can use to describe the whole thing.
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If we had to revise our opinions every time some random person signed up to the forum to offer his opinions we would be redoing everything every other day. Players suggestions have been included in the past, they will be included in the future, but the only practical way of operating is Dev knows best (and it always will be, on any game).
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So it's a "No, we don't want your help" ? :(
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There are plenty of people who help, what were you thinking of in particular?
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Anything really. Currently I try to learn a little about 3d modelling but I am not a talented artist. I'm a much better programer then an artist. So thus I wanted to know if you need help in implementation of easy tasks that you can drop on someone and concentrate on core stuff like game mechanics.
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(Do excuse my complete disregard for the ongoing discussion, at least for the moment)
slaver q bugged
Post in Bugs about whatever you think is wrong with this quest - I've seen some reports about problems, I've seen others that were saying everything's just fine. I checked several slavery-related things recently, and it worked for me except for the slave runs.
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Anything really. Currently I try to learn a little about 3d modelling but I am not a talented artist. I'm a much better programer then an artist. So thus I wanted to know if you need help in implementation of easy tasks that you can drop on someone and concentrate on core stuff like game mechanics.
Well, there are always things to do, you just have to get past the natural cautiousness from the scripters about new people, given the 100% desertion rate of the people that have gone before you.
You're better off PMing one of the scripters about it.
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Well, there are always things to do, you just have to get past the natural cautiousness from the scripters about new people, given the 100% desertion rate of the people that have gone before you.
Hmm. Maybe there's something worth considering there. If every single person who's signed up has since left the project, maybe every single new recruit isn't to blame. I know it's always a problem with video game mods, people dropping out. Did they say why? Roughly how many ex-team members are there? Ones that have actually contributed something used ingame.
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Roughly how many ex-team members are there? Ones that have actually contributed something used ingame.
One. Not counting Slim Charles, for his absence is caused by real life obligations, and who is still considered a member of the team. I do recall few people that applied, came to the channel, hanged around for a while, and simply vanished.
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One. Not counting Slim Charles, for his absence is caused by real life obligations, and who is still considered a member of the team. I do recall few people that applied, came to the channel, hanged around for a while, and simply vanished.
Oh man, Slim was hilarious. I hope you get him back. I didn't realise you only had one ex-dev. The phrase '100% desertion rate' is a little extravagant to describe one ex-member.
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The phrase '100% desertion rate' is a little extravagant to describe one ex-member.
I am pretty sure it was meant to encompass those nothing-doers I was talking about. I am also pretty sure that in at least one instance the hasty departure was caused by realization of how big this project had become (just the scripting documentation wiki can look intimidating for some).
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Ok - that topic is the perfect evidence that people are wrong saying you are ignorant bastards and it already clarified a lot of things - that was my intention for this thread and I find it pretty good. :)
Now I don't want to quote everything - don't want to write a whole novel.
I actually didn't know the whole process (obviously) in developing a game. I will never be as good as you, not only in programing, scripting, no more staying at the game and don't leave the project (I've got issues at motivation/awareness). But I deciphered it a bit out of your posts and the posts of the users here - what is needed is a clarification. A clarification, which shows, what EXACTLY is needed and how to fiddle around of this. Not just "We need a map." more "We need a map for XY - the fonline engine features XYZ critters and animations attached - it needs script ABC for doing things like FLG etc). Or for instance the quests, dialogues. Not just "Yeah, for sure we need your help!" - more "Download program XY - watch the scripts attached to blabla - convert it to XYZ - or whatever is needed. We just don't know the fonline engine, which limitations it has, which things are currently buggy etc.
I don't want you to write manuals for every fucking program you use or how to fiddle around with the engine. But it would be nice to write down the requirements you need for quests e.g to make people actually work on stuff and to get as small as possible amounts of work to integrate that into the game.
Of course it'll need a bit work, writing down the requirements. But soon as you post something, players will get motivation and will send you things. And no, not everyone who has done a map is a "omfg I created a new awesome base for ma gang, please insert it!111" ;)
I (and many other people) don't want to be a "dev" or something. This is your game , you create it and there will always be a base of players who will follow you. We just want to help - and that is why I started that thread. :)
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So I have look at the AngelScript wiki.
Very nice done.
Have you any news about the FO sdk planned for end 2009 ?
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Have you any news about the FO sdk planned for end 2009 ?
I've heard that Cvet, the creator, is prepared to give out the development environment before the public release if you're prepared to write a design document for what game you're going to create.
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hehe... Thx for the tip Badger.
But beginning to design a project without know what interface you can hope is just a crazy thing ^^
I know the work needed, and dont have in mind to launch alone in such Adventure.
I am just looking to have more info on the engine with the purpose to help in this one.
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If you know how to create a Fallout 2 mod, you will have a easy start with the FOnline engine. It works in most cases the same, is just more simple and flexible here and there.
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I have had a look at the Mapper and scripting a few year ago. Just a look, no real work with it.
But I know the work needed, as I work on some personal c++ project since a few year.
I would be happy to have a look at your AngelScript interface after the wipe.
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A lot of people want to help, but they don't have experience with such mods and that makes them pretty much useless. I know that most of these people are just enthusiasts but if they had some quick stepbystep guide what is needed, where to learn that and how to get started, they can easily start on their own. If they keep up, they will eventually share their work with you and if they will not, they will drop out of this without you ever noticed they were interested in it. Its just "raise your own modder" thing that I have in mind...
I was trying to help in past with player skins at NMA forums (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52508&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) and it evolved into 3d->2d conversion (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52667&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) that Eazy-O created. But I was trying to help with something, that I knew a bit and I've started working on gun models. But after a while Eazy-O couldn't find himself a time for this or something so I also stopped. Anyway I tried to make 3d model of vulcan minigun and here it is 3/4 done: 1 (http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5259/minigun2.png), 2 (http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/4096/minigun.png), 3 (http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/4637/minigun4.png). Dunno if I can help with anything now when its going to be whole new 3D era, but certainly I would love to help everywhere where I'm able to.
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1 (http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/5259/minigun2.png), 2 (http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/4096/minigun.png), 3 (http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/4637/minigun4.png). Dunno if I can help with anything now when its going to be whole new 3D era, but certainly I would love to help everywhere where I'm able to.
It's an extremely detailed model, 20k poly ::)?
As far as I know some help may be needed with making items in 3d. A vew people even started making models, you can see the progress here (http://www.fo2238.fodev.net/wiki/3d_graphics_development_tracker). Unfortunatelly the inicjative has stopped recently due to lack of official outlines from the devs :P.
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Its just "raise your own modder" thing that I have in mind...
For sure, enthusiast is not enough to be usefull.
But beginning your own mod can just learn you some basic technics (essentialy).
A mod like it is a whole project, not an addition of code.
Here is all the interest, working on team.
Your algo itself dont have any interest if dont match to a need in the project.
It is maybe different for graphics work, where each one can work easiest separetly after standart fixed.
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As soon as we can (most likely with the next big update), we will release some model packages. Players can check it out then and create new models based on this or edit the textures, etc. With 3d, everything is possible and it doesn't need 10 years of work just to change the hair color.