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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: 5me0 on December 09, 2010, 08:32:24 am
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So, stealing is out kf control, and you can barely talk to an npc without someone jacking your crap and running to the nearest red zone to gtfo.
First, make "steal" timer appear only on the person who steals, end thus makes him unable to leare the avea (like a combat timer) for 2 minutes ? .
The person who got stolen will have kill rights (1 kill) for 24 hours. Also you see a red timer (in hours) above the head of the person who stole from you. This also makes it harder for a person to steal you and run into a crowd, and easier for you to identify him if he comes back again.
This will make stealing have bigger consequences while keeping the system use-able. A jackass cant be able to steal the whohe area,$run away, and waltz in a minute later ajd have every1 powerless to do shit to him.
Ofcourse, all of this only applies to protected towns.
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There is many choices that you can prevent to be robbed.
1. If you go selling something stuff, then take only these stuff along with you and leave anything else to tent.
2. Put items to hands to prevent those items robbed from you.
3. If someone fail to steal from you and guard see him then you can shoot thief and you help others.
4. Use you mind.
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There is many choices that you can prevent to be robbed.
Oh ?
1. If you go selling something stuff, then take only these stuff along with you and leave anything else to tent.
I get some money, i goto an npc to buy shit. someone is waiting near the npc for me to come and talk to the npc. I come to the npc, i get my shit jacked, stealer runs into a crowd and u can barely distinguish shitheads from each other, he goes straight to the red zone and comes back in a minute to taunt you and steal you again.
2. Put items to hands to prevent those items robbed from you.
Yeah thank god this works or else you wouldn't be able to carry shit.
3. If someone fail to steal from you and guard see him then you can shoot thief and you help others.
There al teast needs to be some sort of visual guidance system to aid you, like a red timer over the head.
Although, I think that the stricter measure of not allowing him to leave the area like a combat timer also need to be applied, so you atleast have a fair chance to try to get ur stuff back thru fighting him.
4. Use you mind.
Thanks for the friendly suggestion. (Ironic that your grammar sucks)
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I realize that turning on the player names can act like a visual aid, but a signal that someone is engage-able in general would be useful I think. Maybe a color overlay instead of a timer above the head. Make them shine/flicker red ?
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You got stolen from and you're upset the thiefing system is fine in my opinion just watch your back more like you would in real life exit the trade if some 1 is getting close to you move the window of the trade so you can see yourself and any 1 around you and just move outta there god damn way it's not hard just use your head a little.
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I agree with snackish.
You get stolen from, it's your fault.
Pay more attention.
Yesterday I saw several people in Junktown and the Hub logging off while they had stuff in their inventory.
I also saw people going afk with stuff in their inventory.
Don't be surprised when your inventory gets emptied when you do.
You can tag people red, use it.
Also when you're trading in a shop, close the door if no one else is there.
That way you can have a bit of extra time to close trading.
Don't go trading when there are a lot of people around.
Some might be thieves, others might be shop shooters.
Avoid NCR.
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Are you guys serious ?
How can the game have a basic economy going if you can't even shop at an npc without being killed or robbed ?
Close the door of the shop to give yourself more time ? Really ? And what happens once the game starts getting a real player population ?
If anything, the store guards should protect the customers as well as the shop itself.
This is just nuts.
And anyway,
I'm not saying don't let people steal, I'm saying empower people to act against stealing by allowing them to engage robber for longer periods of time, and by denying robbers the right to leave an area just like with a combat timer.
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You can tag people red, use it.
Also when you're trading in a shop, close the door if no one else is there.
That way you can have a bit of extra time to close trading.
Don't go trading when there are a lot of people around.
Some might be thieves, others might be shop shooters.
Avoid NCR.
There's always ways around problems but it doesn't yet mean that something is fine. Just the fact that you can't do anything to a person you know is a thief and going to steal from you should ring a bell. Surely you can just run away or suicide-burst him until he quits but that just shows how broken thievery is. A thief who owns a hotel room is basically free to terrorize the town as he pleases.
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Are you guys serious ?
How can the game have a basic economy going if you can't even shop at an npc without being killed or robbed ?
Close the door of the shop to give yourself more time ? Really ? And what happens once the game starts getting a real player population ?
If anything, the store guards should protect the customers as well as the shop itself.
This is just nuts.
And anyway,
I'm not saying don't let people steal, I'm saying empower people to act against stealing by allowing them to engage robber for longer periods of time, and by denying robbers the right to leave an area just like with a combat timer.
A timeout for thieves is useless IMO.
If the thief succeeds you can't shoot him as he's still protected.
If he fails you can shoot him.
Try shooting someone in a guarded town or simply walk around armed there.
You'll get shot for having a weapon in your active slot.
You can get stolen from and killed everywhere in this game.
Store guards can't prevent this.
I've said it before, I would love to see a unique animation for stealing, even though this will take a lot of work.
On top of that I would love to see a 2nd stealing time-out which prevents a thief from stealing from the same target again for the next 5 real time minutes.
This should prevent harassing. As far as I'm concerned, both the thief and the victim can see this timer.
There's always ways around problems but it doesn't yet mean that something is fine. Just the fact that you can't do anything to a person you know is a thief and going to steal from you should ring a bell. Surely you can just run away or suicide-burst him until he quits but that just shows how broken thievery is. A thief who owns a hotel room is basically free to terrorize the town as he pleases.
What you say also applies for shop shooters, simply replace the word thief.
As for hotel rooms, I agree with you.
It should be made that you can't rent a room or prolong the rent when your reputation is below -300 with the town's faction.
If you have a room when your reputation goes below -300 you should be able to keep it till the rent expires.
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It should be made that you can't rent a room or prolong the rent when your reputation is below -300 with the town's faction.
If you have a room when your reputation goes below -300 you should be able to keep it till the rent expires.
Except that rep isn't particularly working feature either. You can wave it back and forth by selling crap in shops and then committing crimes. Lol you could actually steal stuff and then sell it for rep.
A certain way to keep thievery at bay would be that each thievery is recorded by the server and the victim can report it to the local lawkeepers if he knows who stole from him. He simply writes the robber's name in the "say" window in dialogue. If the accusement is true this thief gets -100 rep that doesn't replenish or cannot be repaid in any other way than if the thief himself comes and returns the stolen items or caps worth their price to the lawkeeper npc. Then this lawkeeper will give the item/caps back to the person it was stolen and the thief's crimes are forgiven but only if the victim agrees to take the items back and forgive. The information about returned items could be informed to the victim via radio, or whisper comments by town guards, or he could simply check the lawkeeper npc every now and then.
That would be pretty abuse-safe method. You could only abuse it by running thief-alts or having ridiculously hard name to write, which would be countered by taking a screeny for example.
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The problem is that some (most?) player are, in Layman's terms, 'arsholes'. If a feature is abusable it will be abused.
Nerfing it is pointless as long as there's a shadow of a chance to annoy someone and get away with it (causing yet more grief) then people will do it. Anything you can think of to stop people form spamming steal can be negated just by making another alt. Timers, cooldowns, limits, penalties, rep drop, etc. all pointless.
Maybe blocking stealing from players that barter or talk to NPC would make a change, but probably not.
Live with it or move North, you can always shoot a thief there, you can even shoot people that you just suspect being a thief, hell you can shoot anybody (but then again anybody can shoot you, there's anarchy for you).
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How can the game have a basic economy going if you can't even shop at an npc without being killed or robbed ?
Oh, so you can't? I'm sorry for you. Dunno how is that you can't, since 90% population can, well, not my problem.
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The problem is that some (most?) player are, in Layman's terms, 'arsholes'. If a feature is abusable it will be abused.
Actually the problem is that thievery is almost like abuse or grief the way players use it. Since it mostly just annoys people but doesn't provide that good benefits compared to alternatives.
Thievery shouldn't have the reputation of abuse but normal gameplay, but that's not gonna happen with current mechanics.
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Except that rep isn't particularly working feature either. You can wave it back and forth by selling crap in shops and then committing crimes. Lol you could actually steal stuff and then sell it for rep.
I must be doing something wrong than.
Recently my thief alt did a lot of trading in Junktown, the only rep increase that alt had was from staying logged out for a day.
No rep increase visible.
Your suggestion about reporting thievery to lawkeepers simply means people steal till there rep is -1500 than move to another town. When there rep is bad everywhere they simply use ~deleteself and start all over again.
Another thing is that it will lead to thieves cooperating and using steal together. You go figure who actually stole something.
Not the mention the none Russians among us will have a problem with the cyrillic names which makes it abuseable.
It's the players complaining about thievery who give it a bad reputation.
Together with the players, and many aren't thieves, who pretend to use steal on people just to harass them.
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So what's stopping the merchants from having their own merc/guard who when spotting an unsuccessful thief attempt on somebody engaged with the vendor will thereby shoot the thief. I mean the guy is losing business here if the thief is just going to run off with the stuff and maybe sell it later.
But i do see a problem in that although it might stop someone from solo thieving, nothing is going to stop him/her from bringing a friend and again it's only if the guard spots it too so very competent thieves will get away with it, or lucky ones.
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I must be doing something wrong than.
Recently my thief alt did a lot of trading in Junktown, the only rep increase that alt had was from staying logged out for a day.
No rep increase visible.
Only certain sold items give +rep. Haven't tested much but ropes are one product that might get you additional rep but only to certain merchants. Sha Enin or Buster used to provide +rep if you sold him ropes. So basically a thief needs to do some crimes, then sell some farmed crap items to a local merchant. In San Fran I raised my rep up to 1000 during one day by just selling ropes to The Western Star shopkeeper.
Your suggestion about reporting thievery to lawkeepers simply means people steal till there rep is -1500 than move to another town. When there rep is bad everywhere they simply use ~deleteself and start all over again.
This is the problem of entirely differend matter: that players don't care about their characters.
Besides, if some thief was succesfully driven away from a town via this report system, it'd give at least some free days from his harassment. Maybe he's in another town, but so what? It's their problem.
Another thing is that it will lead to thieves cooperating and using steal together. You go figure who actually stole something.
Not the mention the none Russians among us will have a problem with the cyrillic names which makes it abuseable.
You could give any name to the sheriff but if it's incorrect, nothing would happen. If there was 2 players co-operating, the victim would need to write 2 names and check which one was the right one. Just because we got cyrillic names a feature shouldn't be rejected. Cyrillic names could be just globally banned, they cause problems with recognization already.
It's the players complaining about thievery who give it a bad reputation.
Together with the players, and many aren't thieves, who pretend to use steal on people just to harass them.
Obviously the ones abusing steal won't call it abuse, griefing or problematic. I bet it's somewhat entertaining to play as a thief and cause a fuzz in safe towns but in the end it's just harassment. That's because the benefits of thievery are rather mild because you can't choose what your victims have. If you want stuff, it'd be better just farm encounters.
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I don't worry about thieving so much as folks using it to fuck with people.
IE: Someone tries to sell items but has to cancel the attempt everytime a thief feels like stealing. If the thief were to do tihis all day, it would force said seller to move to a different city to attempt to sell goods.
Also potentially a tactic to monopolize merchant cap respawns if enough thieves are around. Now is thisconsidered"griefing" or "exploiting"?
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It has moved on to exploitation now:
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=11815.0
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That exploit is as old as the game even is.
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This is the problem of entirely differend matter: that players don't care about their characters.
Besides, if some thief was succesfully driven away from a town via this report system, it'd give at least some free days from his harassment. Maybe he's in another town, but so what? It's their problem.
So you think NCR is okay with thieves moving to another town within their influence?
I doubt it.
Thieves moving to another town is not a solution as most people travel around, at least from time to time.
You could give any name to the sheriff but if it's incorrect, nothing would happen. If there was 2 players co-operating, the victim would need to write 2 names and check which one was the right one. Just because we got cyrillic names a feature shouldn't be rejected. Cyrillic names could be just globally banned, they cause problems with recognization already.
With the way npc operate now, 1 person talking to an npc at a time, this will be open for exploitation. Just keep the guy occupied.
It will also lead to people simply feeding names to the npc over and over again.
Wether or not cyrillic names should be banned, is not something I'm interested in.
They have their good and bad sides, a good side is it's easy to spot and avoid a certain type of players.
Obviously the ones abusing steal won't call it abuse, griefing or problematic. I bet it's somewhat entertaining to play as a thief and cause a fuzz in safe towns but in the end it's just harassment. That's because the benefits of thievery are rather mild because you can't choose what your victims have.
Obviously you don't really know what you're talking about.
I play a thief, stealing mostly from npc and people I tagged red (PK, thieves, taggers, assholes, etc.).
Most people I see using steal on people aren't thieves, with exception of NCR bazar.
They simply use steal on people in order to scare others away from the trader so they don't have to wait.
I encountered several players in the last few hours doing this in both Junktown and the Hub.
IMO that is harassement.
Using the steal skill to steal isn't.
You can't choose what your victim has, but you can choose what you steal and what you don't steal.
I only steal stuff that's worth a few k or stuff me or my faction can use.
I also choose to leave low level players, shit shovelers and people carrying caravan boxes alone.
If you want stuff, it'd be better just farm encounters.
Lets get rid of traders than.
I don't worry about thieving so much as folks using it to fuck with people.
IE: Someone tries to sell items but has to cancel the attempt everytime a thief feels like stealing. If the thief were to do tihis all day, it would force said seller to move to a different city to attempt to sell goods.
Also potentially a tactic to monopolize merchant cap respawns if enough thieves are around. Now is thisconsidered"griefing" or "exploiting"?
That's exactly what I have been saying.
Some people abuse the steal/FA/etc. animation to pretend to be stealing.
You don't have to be a thief to do so.
Use lockpick, repair, etc. on someone to get the same animation.
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How about this for an idea? you move the barter interface out of the way so you can see, and move if someone comes up and uses a animation on you thats a bluesuit?
Even griefers rarely wear metal armor. or leather armor when pick pocketing.
-Ulrek-
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So you think NCR is okay with thieves moving to another town within their influence?
I doubt it.
Thieves moving to another town is not a solution as most people travel around, at least from time to time.
Towns under ncr control could have shared rep.
With the way npc operate now, 1 person talking to an npc at a time, this will be open for exploitation. Just keep the guy occupied.
It will also lead to people simply feeding names to the npc over and over again.
Nobody's gonna occupy some npc 24/h a day. If we had people who'd be ready to that kind of abuse, hotel room vendors would have been targetted long ago.
Dunno why it would lead to people feeding names over and over again if you couldn't report anyone else but the one who stole from you.
Most people I see using steal on people aren't thieves, with exception of NCR bazar.
They simply use steal on people in order to scare others away from the trader so they don't have to wait.
I encountered several players in the last few hours doing this in both Junktown and the Hub.
IMO that is harassement.
Using the steal skill to steal isn't.
What difference would it make whether they used FA or steal but didn't take anything? The result would be the same. Even if steal didn't have any animation, just standing right next to someone would scare others away in same way as now.
But in the end the reason why stealing is close to abuse is the way it works: you have to run away from a thief. A player who recognizes an obvious thief cannot respond to the criminal's presence in any rational way. He can't punch, shoot or report him unless npc guards notices his robberies.
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Would love to hear a response from the devs:
In a way thieves and the lack of a thief animation gives assholes carte blanche to grief people.
They pretty much control if someone will get an opportunity to utilize a vendor. One could say its paranoia. So is it abuse?
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Towns under ncr control could have shared rep.
Shared rep between towns would only cause more issues and yet another reason to have alts.
Nobody's gonna occupy some npc 24/h a day. If we had people who'd be ready to that kind of abuse, hotel room vendors would have been targetted long ago.
Dunno why it would lead to people feeding names over and over again if you couldn't report anyone else but the one who stole from you.
You go into town with a few friends. 1 isn't a thief and he keeps the npc guy occupied for the time his friends are stealing.
What difference would it make whether they used FA or steal but didn't take anything? The result would be the same. Even if steal didn't have any animation, just standing right next to someone would scare others away in same way as now.
Standing next to someone at a traders scares people away for more reasons than just the risk of getting stolen from.
Changing the animation means it can't be abused. Someone using it is most likely going to steal from you.
But in the end the reason why stealing is close to abuse is the way it works: you have to run away from a thief. A player who recognizes an obvious thief cannot respond to the criminal's presence in any rational way. He can't punch, shoot or report him unless npc guards notices his robberies.
Most people playing are criminals in one way or another, stealing, shooting npc, shooting pc, ...
As long as they're protected, you can't do anything about it.
That's how it works in guarded towns.
Don't like it, go to an unguarded town.
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You go into town with a few friends. 1 isn't a thief and he keeps the npc guy occupied for the time his friends are stealing.
The npc might not be occupied after one hour later, or tomorrow.
Changing the animation means it can't be abused. Someone using it is most likely going to steal from you.
Even if you change the animation, abusers could use it but not steal anything, just look in the victim's inventory. That would work exactly as harassing others with some other than steal skill animation which happens right now. Only if looking in someone's pocket would count as steal attempt, it would work better.
Most people playing are criminals in one way or another, stealing, shooting npc, shooting pc, ...
As long as they're protected, you can't do anything about it.
That's how it works in guarded towns.
"That's how it works" isn't good enough reasoning.
It doesn't matter what you do outside the town as long as it citizens, members or allies aren't involved. Doesn't make you a criminal in ncr's eyes if you rob someone in Modoc. If a player chooses to play thief inside ncr, it means that he doesn't care about the local law so shouldn't that make him an unprotected outlaw?
If you want to get back the law's protection you should repay your wrongdoings to the victim and him only. If players are ready to make alts to get away from that, then they do. It's pretty good slap on someone's face to force him to delete his character and level up a new one.
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The npc might not be occupied after one hour later, or tomorrow.
By than the thief isn't around anymore.
Even if you change the animation, abusers could use it but not steal anything, just look in the victim's inventory. That would work exactly as harassing others with some other than steal skill animation which happens right now. Only if looking in someone's pocket would count as steal attempt, it would work better.
Of course it can still be abused. But if it's a unique animation, you can't pretend which means the one using it has a 30 seconds cooldown. Which means less griefing/abuse. It's still not perfect, but it will be a lot better than it is now.
"That's how it works" isn't good enough reasoning.
It doesn't matter what you do outside the town as long as it citizens, members or allies aren't involved. Doesn't make you a criminal in ncr's eyes if you rob someone in Modoc. If a player chooses to play thief inside ncr, it means that he doesn't care about the local law so shouldn't that make him an unprotected outlaw?
So rep can only be changed by doing certain actions in towns?
So if I'm a mass murderer killing everyone just 1 square from NCR I'm fine?
If you want to get back the law's protection you should repay your wrongdoings to the victim and him only. If players are ready to make alts to get away from that, then they do. It's pretty good slap on someone's face to force him to delete his character and level up a new one.
No it's not. It's not hard to level a thief, especially not if you can do it on mutated molerats.
At most it's boring.
The whole repay for wrong doings makes no sense. You're never fully save anywhere. It doesn't matter if you're carrying anything or not.
Someone shooting a thief, accidentely killing someone else who was low on hp but carrying stuff. Guards loot the victim, shooter has to repay the victim.
We'll end up with half the player base having to repay the other half.
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By than the thief isn't around anymore.
Doesn't matter, he'd still get the -rep when his name was given to the police.
Of course it can still be abused. But if it's a unique animation, you can't pretend which means the one using it has a 30 seconds cooldown. Which means less griefing/abuse. It's still not perfect, but it will be a lot better than it is now.
Does the 30 sec cooldown apply when only looking at someone's inventory? Because if it doesn't the new animation would be useless against fake-stealing abuse. Someone could just look at your inventory without taking anything, thus causing harassment without penalty.
So rep can only be changed by doing certain actions in towns?
So if I'm a mass murderer killing everyone just 1 square from NCR I'm fine?
Better keep it at stealing, not mass murdering here. But if you shoot some people who aren't related to ncr in any way one square away from it, there's no need for rep loss because you didn't harm ncr.
No it's not. It's not hard to level a thief, especially not if you can do it on mutated molerats.
At most it's boring.
It's still something. Then again it'd be better if players didn't want to make alts so easily.
The whole repay for wrong doings makes no sense. You're never fully save anywhere. It doesn't matter if you're carrying anything or not.Someone shooting a thief, accidentely killing someone else who was low on hp but carrying stuff. Guards loot the victim, shooter has to repay the victim.
Wouldn't apply the payback rule to shooting because in that situation the shooter also dies and nobody actually profits, unless some shoot'n'loot abuse was involved. It would work only when it comes to stealing.
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Doesn't matter, he'd still get the -rep when his name was given to the police.
You weren't caught, you didn't fail, no reason to receive a penalty.
Does the 30 sec cooldown apply when only looking at someone's inventory? Because if it doesn't the new animation would be useless against fake-stealing abuse. Someone could just look at your inventory without taking anything, thus causing harassment without penalty.
Using steal on a player or npc starts the cooldown. Still it won't stop people using it for shop shooting purposes.
Better keep it at stealing, not mass murdering here. But if you shoot some people who aren't related to ncr in any way one square away from it, there's no need for rep loss because you didn't harm ncr.
Funny, the same goes on for people who are stealing than.
You didn't harm NCR if you don't steal from them.
The vendor potentially losing business applies here as well.
Not to mention the bad rep NCR would get for not being able to keep their surroundings secure.
It's still something. Then again it'd be better if players didn't want to make alts so easily.
Which is why they shouldn't be given yet an extra reason.
Wouldn't apply the payback rule to shooting because in that situation the shooter also dies and nobody actually profits, unless some shoot'n'loot abuse was involved. It would work only when it comes to stealing.
Which will lead to more shoot and loot abuse.
You're not solving anything there.
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finaly a F***ing good ideea and you start trooling, MAKE THE STEAL SKILL LIKE THE COMBAT TIMEOUT FOR ! GOD DAMED F***ING MINUTE!!!!!
Stop Theivery suport!!!this game suports the ideea of a theif!!!!!
STOP THEIFS!!!
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You weren't caught, you didn't fail, no reason to receive a penalty.
If the victim knows who stole from him, it counts as being caught. Not maybe from the game's point of view but that's where the retardness and annoyance comes from: knowing who is the criminal but not being able to retaliate in any way than running away.
Which is why they shouldn't be given yet an extra reason.
The real reason to alting in this case is that the game doesn't encourage dedicating time to invidual char enough, it's a global problem related to all chars. Basically every class or skill related suggestions could be rejected by reasoning that it will be ruined by alts or some exploit that hasn't been fixed yet. If we're going to discuss steal, then there has to be an agreement that some issues we're having now will be fixed in advance. This means that stealing should work so that a player could play a thief character without feeling the need to delete it and make a new one or resort to the help of additional characters. If you disagree in this case an think that it's okay to simply waste characters like they were disposable tools, we're not going to reach any agreement due to differend stands
Which will lead to more shoot and loot abuse.
You're not solving anything there.
Shoot&loot abuse is an exploit, stealing is not. It's not far-sighted point of view to see shoot'n'loot exploit as part of gameplay. But it's not this thread's role to solve shooting and looting in safe towns.
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finaly a F***ing good ideea and you start trooling, MAKE THE STEAL SKILL LIKE THE COMBAT TIMEOUT FOR ! GOD DAMED F***ING MINUTE!!!!!
Stop Theivery suport!!!this game suports the ideea of a theif!!!!!
STOP THEIFS!!!
This game supports a lot of different characters to play. Thieves are just 1.
If you're refering to the combat time-out when trying to leave an encounter, it's only 9 seconds.
Stealing is no more or less lame than PK in groups. You should know, you're in a faction with PKs and at least 1 thief.
If the victim knows who stole from him, it counts as being caught. Not maybe from the game's point of view but that's where the retardness and annoyance comes from: knowing who is the criminal but not being able to retaliate in any way than running away.
Talking about retardness.
In real life you might know who stole from you, but you're nowhere if you can't proof it.
From the game's point of view the answer would be to shoot the thief.
However that would require "fixing" the looting by guards.
The real reason to alting in this case is that the game doesn't encourage dedicating time to invidual char enough, it's a global problem related to all chars. Basically every class or skill related suggestions could be rejected by reasoning that it will be ruined by alts or some exploit that hasn't been fixed yet. If we're going to discuss steal, then there has to be an agreement that some issues we're having now will be fixed in advance. This means that stealing should work so that a player could play a thief character without feeling the need to delete it and make a new one or resort to the help of additional characters. If you disagree in this case an think that it's okay to simply waste characters like they were disposable tools, we're not going to reach any agreement due to differend stands
Don't implement the ridiculous "I tell the guards" idea to destroy people's rep. Than there's no need to recreate or create new alts. There currently is no reason to delete and recreate a thief alt, unless you messed up during character creation or leveling.
Even guards in a post apocalyptic wasteland would be laughing at you when you told them and would tell you to watch your stuff better.
Especially if you're not in their faction.
The whole issue with stealing right now is people harassing others by pretending to use it. Once again, no reason to fix a skill which isn't broken.
Shoot&loot abuse is an exploit, stealing is not. It's not far-sighted point of view to see shoot'n'loot exploit as part of gameplay. But it's not this thread's role to solve shooting and looting in safe towns.
A good shoot&loot team actually uses the steal skill to look at people's inventory before taking action.
No need to shoot a potential thief or someone who's hardly carrying anything.
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I don't get it. What is the goal of keeping this skill in the game?
People who play this game for a month or more have learned to avoid thiefs by meta-gaming (there is no game mechanic stealing protection), only new players lose items they realy need. Stealing isn't a important part of the game, it's like gambling you can live without it.
I still think there is no solution to steal trolling and everything I've read here is pointless. Making stealing more difficult or having more bad sides only forces one to have more and more alts.
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Actually stealing, both from players or npc, is rather lucrative.
You can join an npc faction and steal from them in their encounters.
Not all stuff stolen is useful, but it can be traded for useful stuff.
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Talking about retardness.From the game's point of view the answer would be to shoot the thief.
However that would require "fixing" the looting by guards.
That's right. The guard loot acted as fast-fix attempt for loot&shoot and suicide bombing, not thief-shooting.
Don't implement the ridiculous "I tell the guards" idea to destroy people's rep.
The point is to make playing a thief seem like you were really a thief: hated by your victims and vulnerable to the punishments. However while your -rep would grow in the eyes of law-abiding people, your +rep would rise from the criminal's point of view. So if player wanted high rep with for example hub criminals, he'd better start stealing but that would also result in being hated by his victims.
In addition the "tell the guards" represents better how rep works. Currently your rep diminishes over time, it represents how people forget your crimes. However players don't forget so fast so it's unfair towards them. If players could report your crimes you'd only get back your rep by paying back what you did or hoping someone really forgot what you did, which wouldn't result in +rep but just not getting shot instantly.
Than there's no need to recreate or create new alts. There currently is no reason to delete and recreate an thief alt, unless you messed up during character creation or leveling.
You don't have to create new characters if you just accept the fact that playing the role of thief means that you're not the most liked guy. Especially if you steal so that everyone sees it and knows your status. If you manage to steal so that nobody sees it, nobody's going to report your name.
Even guards in a post apocalyptic wasteland would be laughing at you when you told them and would tell you to watch your stuff better.
Especially if you're not in their faction.
Maybe, but after a dozen of reports they might actually look into it.
The whole issue with stealing right now is people harassing others by pretending to use it. Once again, no reason to fix a skill which isn't broken.
Actually this pretending is possible only because players can't resist a stealing attempt in any way than running away. The animation is another reason but even if it was changed, it could still be abused.
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That's right. The guard loot acted as fast-fix attempt for loot&shoot and suicide bombing, not thief-shooting.
Anyone can shoot a thief, not just the victim.
The point is to make playing a thief seem like you were really a thief: hated by your victims and vulnerable to the punishments. However while your -rep would grow in the eyes of law-abiding people, your +rep would rise from the criminal's point of view. So if player wanted high rep with for example hub criminals, he'd better start stealing but that would also result in being hated by his victims.
In addition the "tell the guards" represents better how rep works. Currently your rep diminishes over time, it represents how people forget your crimes. However players don't forget so fast so it's unfair towards them. If players could report your crimes you'd only get back your rep by paying back what you did or hoping someone really forgot what you did, which wouldn't result in +rep but just not getting shot instantly.
As a thief you're already hated by those who know you, by your victims and have a neutral or worse rep with the town's npc faction(s). So you're also already punished. The negative reputation makes it troublesome and very risky to travel. Any encounter with any faction you have a less than -300 rep with means you'll most likely get shot. Thief characters aren't fighter builds, so they're not likely to survive an encounter. Especially with the time out after getting attacked.
You don't have to create new characters if you just accept the fact that playing the role of thief means that you're not the most liked guy. Especially if you steal so that everyone sees it and knows your status. If you manage to steal so that nobody sees it, nobody's going to report your name.
If stealing and therefore the usage of your character becomes basically impossible, you have no other choice. People already see you stealing so they know who you are and what you do.
Maybe, but after a dozen of reports they might actually look into it.
As long as their faction isn't a victim and as long as it's not inside their walls (Junktown, VC inner city, etc.) they wouldn't care.
Actually this pretending is possible only because players can't resist a stealing attempt in any way than running away. The animation is another reason but even if it was changed, it could still be abused.
Either you suspect someone to be a thief or you know, there is no other way to resist. At most you can shout thief, but such things are already done.
Someone in another thread mentioned the idea of being able to mark 1 player as a thief and use autopush on it when he gets too close.
No matter what you change, it can still be abused. Just go stand next to someone.
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As a thief you're already hated by those who know you, by your victims and have a neutral or worse rep with the town's npc faction(s). So you're also already punished. The negative reputation makes it troublesome and very risky to travel. Any encounter with any faction you have a less than -300 rep with means you'll most likely get shot. Thief characters aren't fighter builds, so they're not likely to survive an encounter. Especially with the time out after getting attacked.
Negative rep isn't a punishment at all as long as you're protected by the guards. What comes to hostile encounters, it's not a big deal since thieves don't wear armors or use guns, or carry around large ammounts of items. The worst that can happen to a smart thief is that he loses something valuable he just stole because of hostile patrol.
If stealing and therefore the usage of your character becomes basically impossible, you have no other choice. People already see you stealing so they know who you are and what you do.
Impossible? Nope. You just have to steal so that your victim doesn't notice it, like real thieves. Not just place yourself next to someone and take his belongings while everyone is watching. Succesful steal attempt only means that you managed to grap the item, not that nobody saw it happen.
As long as their faction isn't a victim and as long as it's not inside their walls (Junktown, VC inner city, etc.) they wouldn't care.
Which could be actually good because then players would stick to their npc factions to get the guards listen to them.
Either you suspect someone to be a thief or you know, there is no other way to resist. At most you can shout thief, but such things are already done.
Someone in another thread mentioned the idea of being able to mark 1 player as a thief and use autopush on it when he gets too close.
No matter what you change, it can still be abused. Just go stand next to someone.
That's just bad suggestion. Better would be that when the person is tagged and tries to steal, he gets instantly caught.
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Negative rep isn't a punishment at all as long as you're protected by the guards. What comes to hostile encounters, it's not a big deal since thieves don't wear armors or use guns, or carry around large ammounts of items. The worst that can happen to a smart thief is that he loses something valuable he just stole because of hostile patrol.
If I remember correctly thieves should lose protection for 1 real time hour when they fail. Meaning everyone can shoot them on sight in guarded towns.
At some point thieves will most likely want to move their stuff either to their faction or to sell. I doubt they'll be carrying as much as possible.
Hostile encounters are a big deal for thieves since they most likely have a worse than -300 rep with the town's faction. Which happen to be the npc you might encounter around their town. With a rep worse than -300 it doesn't matter if you're having a gun in your active slot or not.
Impossible? Nope. You just have to steal so that your victim doesn't notice it, like real thieves. Not just place yourself next to someone and take his belongings while everyone is watching. Succesful steal attempt only means that you managed to grap the item, not that nobody saw it happen.
As with real thieves, people tend to forget their faces and such. So their rep would slightly improve as it does now. With the current animation no one can see what you're doing. You could be using FA, repair, lockpick or steal. People simply can't tell. Thieving mostly goes unnoticed due to crowded areas where people don't pay attention. Like when buying something. The whole "everyone is watching" makes no sense as it would nerve stealing to a level where it's impossible to use it.
Which could be actually good because then players would stick to their npc factions to get the guards listen to them.
And guards still couldn't do anything as you're not caught in the act by them.
That's just bad suggestion. Better would be that when the person is tagged and tries to steal, he gets instantly caught.
No, that's a bad suggestion. At most it would be harder as the target would get increased PE and/or the bonuses for stealing from the side or back would be canceled. The autopush was suggested as tagging it to 1 thief max.
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As with real thieves, people tend to forget their faces and such.
As with real thieves, nobody ever saw them stealing so nobody knows who stole from them.
With the current animation no one can see what you're doing. You could be using FA, repair, lockpick or steal. People simply can't tell. Thieving mostly goes unnoticed due to crowded areas where people don't pay attention. Like when buying something. The whole "everyone is watching" makes no sense as it would nerve stealing to a level where it's impossible to use it.
Can't tell huh? A guy who walks from dude to dude touching them in weird way surely isn't some mass-tickler set loose.
In reality thieving does go unnoticed in crowded areas but in fonline we got isometric view and we can see what happens around us.
What's troubblesome when it comes to steal is that big part of its success relies on the skill's dice roll. It's okay feature when it comes to stealing from npcs and worked okay in fallout singleplayer. But such simplistic feature doesn't suit multiplayer because players aren't bots guided by scripts. When it comes to outmatching another player (managing to steal from him), a dice roll isn't acceptable measurement of victory.
While stealing lacks harsh enough punishments, it also lacks ways for a thief to increase his chances to succeed via smart gameplay. Victims also lack rational ways to resist being stolen from. Think of stealing as pvp: when builds and equipment are equal the smarter player wins. This doesn't apply to stealing because the victim can only avoid the thief, but not defeat him.
And guards still couldn't do anything as you're not caught in the act by them.
That's because there's no way to catch the thief and drag him to the police. But surely they would listen to a member of their own society.
No, that's a bad suggestion.
It would represent how you expect someone to put his hand in your pocket and then grap him from the wrist and alert the guards. A thief caught with hand in cookie jar.
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As with real thieves, nobody ever saw them stealing so nobody knows who stole from them.
Problem solved than. You don't know, you can't tell, you can't do anything about it.
Can't tell huh? A guy who walks from dude to dude touching them in weird way surely isn't some mass-tickler set loose.
In reality thieving does go unnoticed in crowded areas but in fonline we got isometric view and we can see what happens around us.
You should see it from your character's point of view, not yours.
The isometric view we have gives us an advantage into seeing (possible) threats approaching.
We can tag them red.
What's troubblesome when it comes to steal is that big part of its success relies on the skill's dice roll. It's okay feature when it comes to stealing from npcs and worked okay in fallout singleplayer. But such simplistic feature doesn't suit multiplayer because players aren't bots guided by scripts. When it comes to outmatching another player (managing to steal from him), a dice roll isn't acceptable measurement of victory.
This would require the whole game to be redesigned.
Almost everything in PvP, no matter the field, is decided by a dice roll.
While stealing lacks harsh enough punishments, it also lacks ways for a thief to increase his chances to succeed via smart gameplay. Victims also lack rational ways to resist being stolen from. Think of stealing as pvp: when builds and equipment are equal the smarter player wins. This doesn't apply to stealing because the victim can only avoid the thief, but not defeat him.
Smart thieves steal from behind as the chance of success is bigger.
A failed steal is a win for the victim. Whether it's by walking away or not.
If the victim walks away, the thief can't win, the victim keeps his stuff, so he won.
That's because there's no way to catch the thief and drag him to the police. But surely they would listen to a member of their own society.
That member still has no proof. So people, possibly with help of friends, report players who than get screwed over by guards.
It would represent how you expect someone to put his hand in your pocket and then grap him from the wrist and alert the guards. A thief caught with hand in cookie jar.
It would represent how someone draws you attention to something to use it to steal from you.
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You should see it from your character's point of view, not yours.
The isometric view we have gives us an advantage into seeing (possible) threats approaching.
There's the LoS, we can't see beyond it so we do see things from our char's point of view. Somehow we just see behind us.
This would require the whole game to be redesigned.
Almost everything in PvP, no matter the field, is decided by a dice roll.
That's to prevent players from mastering everything. Dice rolls are okay if there are ways to affect them via situational ingame decisions. Reduce your enemy's chances and raise your own. Stealing has basically no ways to affect the dice roll's outcome via ingame decisions.
Smart thieves steal from behind as the chance of success is bigger.
Except when using pickpocket perk.
A failed steal is a win for the victim. Whether it's by walking away or not.
If the victim walks away, the thief can't win, the victim keeps his stuff, so he won.
A win in fonline terms means lost equipment. Because thieves doubtfully steal while wearing CA and carrying 10k caps their losses are quaranteed to be minimal, but the victim's losses can be very high. If the victim is forced to move, it's either draw or victory to the thief if his plan was just to harass. Thief cannot really lose unless he starts to carry expensive stuff with him.
That member still has no proof. So people, possibly with help of friends, report players who than get screwed over by guards.
His reputation works as proof. The report feature would work so that you simply cannot stage players.
It would represent how someone draws you attention to something to use it to steal from you.
He can try to draw my attention all he likes but if I know he's a thief no tricks can save him.
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There's the LoS, we can't see beyond it so we do see things from our char's point of view. Somehow we just see behind us.
You're LoS is less behind you, it can and will be used by thieves, sneak bursters, etc.
That's to prevent players from mastering everything. Dice rolls are okay if there are ways to affect them via situational ingame decisions. Reduce your enemy's chances and raise your own. Stealing has basically no ways to affect the dice roll's outcome via ingame decisions.
Most in-game none combat related skills have a dice roll you can't influence.
Even the ones you can, like critical hits, have a dice roll.
Sometimes when leveling my lockpicker alt I have 1 critical hit after another on molerats. 1 hour later I can hardly get a critical hit on molerats while still using the same alt.
Except when using pickpocket perk.
I tried stealing from the front on an npc and failed more often than stealing from behind.
After I got pickpocket skill.
Major difference I noticed in that skill is that it became easier to steal large and heavy objects.
A win in fonline terms means lost equipment. Because thieves doubtfully steal while wearing CA and carrying 10k caps their losses are quaranteed to be minimal, but the victim's losses can be very high. If the victim is forced to move, it's either draw or victory to the thief if his plan was just to harass. Thief cannot really lose unless he starts to carry expensive stuff with him.
People aren't exactly running around with 10k caps and CA in their inventory either.
As for harassing, once again, you don't need a high steal skill for that.
Every one of my none thief alts can use it to harass people.
Or just use repair, lockpick, etc. instead.
His reputation works as proof. The report feature would work so that you simply cannot stage players.
That makes no sense. Reputation can also be bad due to shop shooting or bursting protected people or something as simple as standing in a door opening too long.
He can try to draw my attention all he likes but if I know he's a thief no tricks can save him.
Which goes back to the isometric view. You don't know he's a thief unless he failed stealing from you.
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The current thief disbalance is that thieves has nothing to loose, so thay can annoying you even failing come back and every time when that thief come close you should move.
The simplest solution - make a tool for stealing, valuable enough - so thieves would also have smth to loose - that would be a wise balance)
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It wouldn't change a thing.
Items are easy to get, valuable or not.
Last few times when I failed, died and came back to both Junktown and the Hub I was unprotected after death.
Meaning you could shoot me on the spot.
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It wouldn't change a thing.
Items are easy to get, valuable or not.
Why don't you start stealing while wearing CA if it's so easy to get?
Last few times when I failed, died and came back to both Junktown and the Hub I was unprotected after death.
Meaning you could shoot me on the spot.
So what? You didn't suffer any material losses.
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Why don't you start stealing while wearing CA if it's so easy to get?
Because that would be a waste of CA. It's easy to get it or not, it's still a waste ;)
So what? You didn't suffer any material losses.
He lost his TIME. Time is very important in real life and in this game. Thieves need patience.
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Why don't you start stealing while wearing CA if it's so easy to get?
http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=11937.msg99391#msg99391
Jacob was sold out.
I was wearing a tesla armor and carrying 2 metal armors mk 1 and, a 64% det. laser rifle with 11 MFC from an encounter and I might have had some caps and some weak healing powder on me as well.
So what? You didn't suffer any material losses.
I'd like to know where got that idea?
It's not like thieves steal 1 item, leave and come back for a 2nd hoping their victim didn't notice the item missing and is still around waiting to lose more.
Because that would be a waste of CA. It's easy to get it or not, it's still a waste ;)He lost his TIME. Time is very important in real life and in this game. Thieves need patience.
Patience is a virtue.
Some people don't understand that.
It's only a waste if I fail and if I get killed.
2 big ifs, especially as lots of people are afraid to shoot you as they're scared to lose the rest of their items when hitting the wrong person.
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Think they need to add more synergy with sneak (with reworking it ofc) and add roll for sneak skill when trying to peak in victim's inventory.
First because of stealing effeciency it should have requirements on par with crafting proffesions ( which always req. 2 skills to work standalone ), because you can steal from more than just players...
Later because it'd fix much of abuse and allow offended players to win over thief ( by making thief sooner or later revealed ).
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I don't think the devs need to meddle much with the thieving mechanic rather than just let us exact vengeance upon whoever steals from you for longer periods of time (ie. hours), so that the person who steals doest just leave area and come back to bug you again. Sure, the "global" timer should remain short, but you should personally be able to engage him for a long period of time.
Only this is needed to stop excessive abuse imho.
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Only certain sold items give +rep. Haven't tested much but ropes are one product that might get you additional rep but only to certain merchants. Sha Enin or Buster used to provide +rep if you sold him ropes. So basically a thief needs to do some crimes, then sell some farmed crap items to a local merchant. In San Fran I raised my rep up to 1000 during one day by just selling ropes to The Western Star shopkeeper.
I've tested rep thingy. It goes like this:
You get reputation bonus when you sell items to a merchant, who normally DOESN'T sell them. When you sell guns to a doctor you get reputation bonus (but much less cash than you would get by selling it at gunshop), but if you sell jet/stims to this doctor you don't get rep, but he pays more money for drugs.
So basicaly you sell stuff cheap, but instead you get some reputation bonus.
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Think they need to add more synergy with sneak (with reworking it ofc) and add roll for sneak skill when trying to peak in victim's inventory.
First because of stealing effeciency it should have requirements on par with crafting proffesions ( which always req. 2 skills to work standalone ), because you can steal from more than just players...
Later because it'd fix much of abuse and allow offended players to win over thief ( by making thief sooner or later revealed ).
This makes stealing virtually impossible. People sneaking are always visible on a 3 hex range.
Not all professions require 2 skills, BG and SG require 2 and armorer requires 1.
Also something like bartering also requires only 1 skill and it is even more efficient than stealing as it's always 100% successful.
You can be 100% successful against any thief by simply putting 1 hex distance between you and the thief.
I don't think the devs need to meddle much with the thieving mechanic rather than just let us exact vengeance upon whoever steals from you for longer periods of time (ie. hours), so that the person who steals doest just leave area and come back to bug you again. Sure, the "global" timer should remain short, but you should personally be able to engage him for a long period of time.
Only this is needed to stop excessive abuse imho.
Thieves lose protection when they fail. I think that stays the way now after you die for about 1 real-time hour.
Yes, you can come back to try to steal again, but you can shoot the thief than, even before he tries to steal again.
Main problem with the stealing skill is people abusing it for grieving.
I've tested rep thingy. It goes like this:
You get reputation bonus when you sell items to a merchant, who normally DOESN'T sell them. When you sell guns to a doctor you get reputation bonus (but much less cash than you would get by selling it at gunshop), but if you sell jet/stims to this doctor you don't get rep, but he pays more money for drugs.
So basicaly you sell stuff cheap, but instead you get some reputation bonus.
Thanks for letting us know that. That's useful information.