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Other => FOnline:2238 Forum => Archives => Suggestions => Topic started by: avv on October 25, 2010, 01:40:56 pm
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Following the guideline which was revealed in here (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=10074.0) few things came to my mind. Here's a direct quote from one of the devs.
The aim is to make it so that you can do anything you want in the support role without giving up combat ability.
Think of it as two halves of the character, the combat side and then (for want of a better word) his "job". Crafter/Outdoorsman/Dismantler/Repairer or a mix of these things.
So basically the aim is to make it so that every char is capable to pvp and living a normal wasteland life. I'd like to point out that having very low PE and STR can both affect seriously to the char's combat and support ability, compared to for example luck, CHA and END. Too low AGI and INT can also cripple you, but that's another story.
Let's look at PE first: if you got PE1, it's basically goodbye to serious pvp due to extremely short field of view. Seeing the enemy first is a tremendous benefit. In fact, a low PE dude sees almost less in front of him than high PE man sees behind him. How the hell is that even possible?
Then we got str, which basically cripples your every day life except pvp when switched to very low. 24 carry weight is a joke. If the aim is to allow everyone to have decent pvp and questing/crafting experiences with one char, it is easy to cripple by having too low str.
The actual suggestion here is that field of view would be almost same for everyone. Having higher PE would affect more to long range shooting accuracy. So that the old PE range would act as a line that determined when your aiming starts to suck badly. This means that PE1 dude better not shoot at targets beyond 23 hexes, but he can still see like 40 hexes. This way even low PE fighter could spot his enemy from afar, but couldn't attack him yet due to his preferred short range weapons.
What comes to str is that everyone would have default carryweight of 45, it can never go lower than this but could be raised with more str. This is because carryweights lower than that begin to be rather troubblesome when it comes to hauling ores, wood or loot. What's gonna happen to small frame then? It better get changed because the carryweight penalty is directed to crafting abilities while +1 agi is related to pvp.
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I very like idea. I think It is possible to do but not without earthquake to whole game system.
What comes to str is that everyone would have default carryweight of 45, it can never go lower than this but could be raised with more str. This is because carryweights lower than that begin to be rather troubblesome when it comes to hauling ores, wood or loot. What's gonna happen to small frame then? It better get changed because the carryweight penalty is directed to crafting abilities while +1 agi is related to pvp.
How about crafting straight from slave or brahmin equipment?
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Well, it's just my opinion, but you can't be good at everything. You are crafter OR fighter OR tradesman
And to be honest: Who put his PE to 1? :P
If you want to have high weight cap. then have higher ST. I don't see your point here.
It is possible to have decent crafter, who can fight fairly well PvE. Sometimes also can defend agains PK's. But he will never be close as good as any of typical PvP powerbuilds. You can just forget about that.
The only option to be good at everything is to have separate skill ponts for fighting skills and for crafting skills. But that would just kill proffesions imho. AND powerbuilders would just throw their crafting skill points to FA & DOC ;P
So the real option is: Have multiple alts
Or play one character with decent skills. I play like that now (and played like that year ago. I realy enojoyed that.).
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How about crafting straight from slave or brahmin equipment?
All the same, the point about strength is that very low carry weight makes everyday playing very frustrating. It doesn't matter how it's fixed.
I don't see your point here.
That's because you missed it. Read the thread I linked, read what Solar has to say there. Devs got plans for future and this suggestion is to support the guidelines they gave.
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I like the idea, but im against your PE suggestion. When youre blinded you got 1PE, IRL you wouldnt hit anything so even this 23 hexes are a blessing!
Carry weight related to strenght, just as melee damage is, well maybe why not
Im thinking you think of SPECIAL based solutions to crafting/surviving just as combat skills are now (except weapon, Fa and outdoors skill). So for example higher Agi could demand lower or just better roll on disassembling. Higher luck could mean some bonus to healing or the ammount crafted? INT could reduce cooldown for crafting. St should reduce time of gathering cd.
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I like the idea, but im against your PE suggestion. When youre blinded you got 1PE, IRL you wouldnt hit anything so even this 23 hexes are a blessing!
Cripples are another story, the point for increasing the line of sight was to allow more builds. Nobody's going to want to play pvp with a build that always gets shot beyond his sight.
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Well, I think it would only nerf snipers. Maybe even make them useless.
I RL sniper can lay down, camouflage etc., so you cant see him. Here he can only go out of your FOV.
So I think it wouldn't be to good...
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Well, I think it would only nerf snipers. Maybe even make them useless.
I RL sniper can lay down, camouflage etc., so you cant see him. Here he can only go out of your FOV.
Big part of sniper's deadlyness also lies in the long range attacks. Being able to shoot beyond enemy's effective range is huge benefit and won't go anywhere just because line of sight was increased for everyone.
Being shot from nowhere is goddamn annoying feature in every game it exists. It happens mostly in tactical shooters but you can train yourself to spot the unseen enemies. In fonline training yourself won't help because bullets leave no trace or you simply cannot see more than 20 hex with low PE.
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And to be honest: Who put his PE to 1?
I have an alt with 1 PE and it's not a HtH or crafter build.
SPECIAL settings are a choice.
Low PE is a choice.
Low ST is a choice
Low ...
Perks to get more strength or see further are a choice.
The OP's suggestion will enforce more uniform builds.
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SPECIAL settings are a choice.
Low PE is a choice.
Low ST is a choice
Low ...
The point still remains: some low stats can cripple our chars worse than others. There's no balance there. Low PE cripples pvp ability more than low luck or low cha. Low str cripples every day activity more than most stats. If devs are going to make all chars to have a chance to participate in pvp and other wasteland activities, we shouldn't be able to cripple our chars in either area by selecting too low stats. Stats should work like charisma: if you set it low, you simply don't get access to certain extra features, but your everyday life in pvp and everything else isn't tremendously crippled. If charisma is set low, the char just won't get much mercs or get to act as party leader. That's not a big loss. You set str to 1 and your every day life becomes a struggle and that's pretty damn big loss.
However, Solar also said that chars have 2 sides: pvp and the support. If we get to choose set of combat and support perks so that they don't take slots from each other it could solve the carryweight problem because low strength chars would pick +carryweight perks.
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How can Charisma have any effect to fighting and PvP? :O
It's impossible, to make all SPECIAL with the same value for PvP and PvE characters. And if you would SOMEHOW make this balance, you are talking about, then there would be like characters with all stats at 5.
SPECIAL settings are a choice.
Low PE is a choice.
Low ST is a choice
Low ...
Yeah, exactly. Its your choice if you want to have strong char or weak. Intelligent or dumbass. Charismatic or ugly as hell.
If you want to make char, who is ok at every aspect of game, make all stat around average. Nobody wants you ta make some stats at 1 point.
I am playing crafter, who is quite OK at fighting (ofcourse no chances agains PvP powerbuilds), he is ok at traveling, he can heal himself etc. Its universal char. You can make one too, but you need to think about that kind of build.
It would kill whole idea of FOnline to have 2 sides of character, when everyone are imba PvP and great crafters. That wouldn't make any sense.
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However, Solar also said that chars have 2 sides: pvp and the support. If we get to choose set of combat and support perks so that they don't take slots from each other it could solve the carryweight problem because low strength chars would pick +carryweight perks.
With this you might as well give away a default pvp build when I tag BG and chose pvp and a default crafter build when I tag BG and support.
Set perks to automatic and all I need to do is level.
Hell, when I tagged support even skill points can be set automatic till I reach the requirements for the 3rd level of the profession.
I read somewhere crafting will change from the current system to blue prints.
Lets wait and see what kind of crafting requirements are left than.
Personally I hope this means we do with 1 crafter build for all craftable items and that we're rid of specialized terminals like the ones in VC and the raider's northern base.
That combined with the changes to the npc factions, it might add some dynamics to the gameplay and more player interaction.
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How can Charisma have any effect to fighting and PvP? :O
Mercs.
And if you would SOMEHOW make this balance, you are talking about, then there would be like characters with all stats at 5.
Nope, it would only mean that you start to get more bonuses when the stat is more than 1. There's a difference between bonuses and necessities. Being able to carry sufficient ammount of stuff or see decently far are both necessities. Being able to cause criticals or have many mercs are just bonuses. The lack of bonuses do not cripple your char, but the lack of necessities does.
So what I'm suggesting here is that all stats would only provide bonuses, not necessities. Setting them low would only mean you don't get these bonuses and it's okay if it didn't suit your style in first place. So if PE worked as I described PE char would not be able to shoot far because of the massive to hit penalties, but he could still see far away. Weak char wouldn't be using heavy weapons just like they aren't now. So what exactly would change?
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Nope, it would only mean that you start to get more bonuses when the stat is more than 1. There's a difference between bonuses and necessities. Being able to carry sufficient ammount of stuff or see decently far are both necessities. Being able to cause criticals or have many mercs are just bonuses. The lack of bonuses do not cripple your char, but the lack of necessities does.
So what I'm suggesting here is that all stats would only provide bonuses, not necessities. Setting them low would only mean you don't get these bonuses and it's okay if it didn't suit your style in first place. So if PE worked as I described PE char would not be able to shoot far because of the massive to hit penalties, but he could still see far away. Weak char wouldn't be using heavy weapons just like they aren't now. So what exactly would change?
Who are you to decide what others think is a necessity for their characters?
My 1 PE alt has no necessity for a far viewing range.
My 2 ST alt has no necessity for more strength other than through drugs usage.
I feel their necessities lie in other stats.
We're all able to cause criticals, difference is the chance we have for it.
Having a high chance for causing criticals is a sniper's necessity, but not for a BG alt.
You may call a perk like pack rat a bonus, but on some builds is might be a necessity.
Weak characters can't use BG?
ST 3 and Small Frame results in 31 carry weight.
IMO a character with 31 carry weight is weak character.
However with Weapon Handling perk I fit the required strength for an LSW.
I might even accept the -20% loss on the other BG for the 1 ST shortage, although I'm technically too weak to use them.
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Who are you to decide what others think is a necessity for their characters?
My 1 PE alt has no necessity for a far viewing range.
My 2 ST alt has no necessity for more strength other than through drugs usage.
I feel their necessities lie in other stats.
In this case it's not up to players to decide what they want from their chars. The constitution states that every char has to be able to craft and fight and that's that. If constitution says that, then the 2 default necessities are crafting and fighting regardless what players expect. So in the end they get to choose 2 things: how they fight and what's their profesion. If they don't want to fight, well don't fight but your char still got the ability to.
Of course you don't need carryweight or line of sight if you have alts that simply won't participate in those activities. But as Solar said, upcoming builds must be capable of crafting and pvp alike. So chars must posess necessities required for both as default. Low str won't carry ores or wood, low PE won't be good in pvp. If a char can be rendered useless to either pvp or crafting by simply setting one stat to 1, then what's the point of having the possibility of making that choice if it breaks the core principle of every char?
We're all able to cause criticals, difference is the chance we have for it.
Having a high chance for causing criticals is a sniper's necessity, but not for a BG alt.
Which is fine. Because causing crits isn't the big gunners style. So compared to str1, luck1 is a viable choice if you don't plan to lay crits in first place. But low str is never a viable choice if our chars are meant to be able to craft and fight. Same goes with PE1.
Weak characters can't use BG?
ST 3 and Small Frame results in 31 carry weight.
IMO a character with 31 carry weight is weak character.
However with Weapon Handling perk I fit the required strength for an LSW.
I might even accept the -20% loss on the other BG for the 1 ST shortage, although I'm technically too weak to use them.
Yeah but what's your point? What I meant with weak chars wont be using big guns was answer to what Kirkor said here: then there would be like characters with all stats at 5.
So the point was that even if str1 dudes had cw 45 as default, it wouldn't mean that people would be able to do everything regardless of their stats.
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The constitution states that every char has to be able to craft and fight and that's that. If constitution says that, then the 2 default necessities are crafting and fighting regardless what players expect. So in the end they get to choose 2 things: how they fight and what's their profesion.
IMO thats rather stupid idea. If everyone will have all proffessions (good crafter + good PvP) in one char, then there will be no diversity. No difference between characters and their builds. What I love in FOnline, that there are no classess. You can make great crafter. You can make great PvP. Or you can make decent both.
In RL you can't be good at everything. Life is about tough choices. I want to be a good worker, so I have to give up a little with my hobby, etc.
And every character have strong&weak points. If you have some weak points, there are some PERKS which can minimise the weak sides (pack rat for low carry weight, Sharpshooter for low PE, More crit for bigger chance to crit, Magnetic personality to travel with more friends, Weapon Handling for low ST etc). So you have to PLAN your build to be fairrly good at SOME aspects of game.
And there is also possibility of making alts. If you want to play PvP char, you make one. If you want to play crafter from time to time, you can make one too. But characters "all-in-one" is really bad idea...
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But characters "all-in-one" is really bad idea...
But that's whats in the works. Honestly I don't wish to discuss the whole matter here since it's already decided, I'm not even the one who made the decision but for sure I support it. What's left is to fabricate features that support the planned settings.
But if you want to question things, sure we can talk about it.
What you mean all in one? One pvp and one main profesion for sure isn't all in one. There's multiple build types and various profesions, there's no way you can put all fighting builds and profesions in one char. The very idea behind this new character building principle is to reduce the need of alts. After all what's the difference between having a char who can craft&fight and having 2 chars from which one fights and another crafts? In both cases you get access to crafting and fighting but the 1 char style is simplier and most likely closer how devs want the game to be like. I mean if they loved alts and absolutely wanted players to use them, they prolly wouldn't have implemented anti alt log in time and they would be everywhere telling us how they want more alts and that alts make the game good. But they don't like alts. Here's a quote from ghosthack from some random post:
Alts is always a problem. This doesn't have much do with this specific mechanic. I'd say just about any feature is affected by it.
Source (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=2453.msg20621#msg20621)
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From what I read earlier somewhere, there's going to be a change from the current crafting system to 1 with blueprints.
If that means the current requirements for crafting change to "having the blueprint for it", it would almost completely remove the need for crafting alts.
If they get rid of the specific terminals for MFC, 7.62 and drugs, there wouldn't be any need for crafting alts at all.
It's on the to do list (http://fodev.net/forum/index.php?topic=8618.msg74486#msg74486).