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[avv]

Hey man, it's a RPG! Obviously your char do something instead of you: he have skills, it's not you who aim the eyes, it's him, you just tell him to aim it.

It's rpg but it doesn't mean anything else except that we play a role in a certain world. We can play that role no matter how the combat works. But for the sake of combat it would be more reasonable that we players were in control of our combat success, instead of our chars doing it for us. This is because when it comes to pvp it's a matter of competition of playerl skills, not the skills of each other's chars.

If aiming is done by our chars then why isn't everything else aswell since it's an rpg? We already have to posess some reflexes in real time, why can't these reflexes come out of our chars since it's an rpg? Since it's an rpg shouldn't a good barter char be able to basically rob items from other players since his char is so good at convincing them to agree to his deals that they can't resist? Shouldn't a skilled female speech char be able to seduce all male chars to lay down their arms for her? Should be pretty easy since most combat builds got so low cha and speech.

Also, you have to see that fight isn't the the only thing in this game, it's far more vast. You have to make choices: be better at fight, or be able to travel faster? Be able to hide yourself, or to heal? Or maybe just to maintain your gear?
In most MMORPG, all your choices are combat based, as you don't need anything to craft/travel. Here it's different.

But you don't kill other players with fast travel, heal or crafting. That's the entire point. Only combat skills have the power to influence other players and other skills are even away from your combat permormance without paying off in sufficient way.
Besides because of alts players don't even need to make any choices since they already have every character in their disposal or at least have access to them.

[kttdestroyer]

Relax people, lets discuss rather then rage please. And excuse my sarcasm, but i just cant write in other way.

For info : in gang fights, a part from fast clik, you have to manage one/various groups, micromanage same/mix builds , settle postion wisely (we are talking about one hex of precision), aim the correct target regard situation, use max range of weappons/sight range, perfect timings, wisely split groups, scoot properly, manage logisctical issues for getting fast operational, surprise ennemy with new strats, hide/dont some forces, etc..,etc.. tactics/situations are almost infinite
You may say thats not hard or thats not relevent and again its just that you have no clue of what there is going on in gang wars...

I do not see very much tactics here, most of the things you mentioned are either game knowlage (Range, which build is good against what, who to target meaning who is most dangerous against us) or communication issues (where to stand so you can shoot the enemy before he shots you, here comes fast clicking as a factor aswell). And we have logistics aswell, which is working quite well, although not really complicated.

So, lets break this up in smaller parts.

Managing groups and mixing builds, yes, some small tactical elements but currently and unfortunattly not a key element for who wins, no matter how you mix it, its more about not doing some fatal mistakes rather then gain advantage.

Scouting, yes, one needs to know if one can win or not, how big are enemy numbers and where they are/what they have, this not key element though (or it is, in a way of, if you got more people on WM then you can assume your victory/loose, which is kind of simple, and no more tactical then 7>5), becouse its mostly gives back a question: Attack, or not attack and from where?

Next, hex precise placement and range usage, yes, to be able to shoot first becouse you will see enemy before he sees you (and so, you have a lot easier to click first (damn again fast clicking)), not very complicated unless someone linkes to stand 1 hex from door with a rocket luncher, then it might be complicated for that one.

Logistics "Well, someone forgot his armor again?", or "Damn i forgot ammo...". Well, sarcastic, becouse i dont see this as problematic thing to do, i understand you mean to prepare for several attacks and having stuff placed close by to quickly go back to battle in case of need after death/ammo refill situation. Thats pretty simple, isint it? Its like bringing toilet paper to the toilet before... Well, you know what i mean.

Timings of attack, Yes, this could be a tactical element, too bad the battles seldom go on very long time to be able to use this in bigger extansion. To make this work currently it must be used in very small time frame to gain success. Attacking one from behind and front (surrounding enemy) might enable the attackers from behind to get their first shot in, but thats all in terms of advantage.

Hiding forces, why would anyone want to do that? Exept when in defense when you want to cheat enemy by showing them only small amount of your force (so the enemy thinks they can manage them). Thats the only situation i can think of. And currently, this brings it down to amount of numbers vs amount of numbers unfortunatly.


My conclusion:
I see none of those as key elements in combat, exept for the obvious. Most of those things are based again, on Fast clicking, Luck, and/or Builds. And communication which is teamwork.
You take good position and manage range/timing to gain the first click (first shot).
You scout, manage groups and micromanage logistics to manage the amounts of power builds (x vs y, Yes or no) (builds becouse non-power builds are not taken into account).
You hope to get lucky shots in the end, which might turn the tides of the battle.

In my opinion, none of the things you mentioned are key element to final victory unless opposite side completly lacks those. Some of those things you mentioned would be tactical elements, but are nerfed to most simple form by allowing every weapon to be fired instantly. Now, imagine if firing time was in place (what the thread is about), and how it would affect those elements, turning them into key elements, replacing the fast clicking, builds to some extand and even luck could be overpoweredto some point by enchanced tactical elements.

I bet my car you are not in any "big" gang so i understand you have no clue what im talking about... anywawy you should trust gang players when they say what they know... instead of some ironical/smart/sarcasm sentences.

Been there, done that.

[Crazy]

Well, I am very often in big PvP gang fight. And I can say you, skill and tactics matter far much than you seem to think. Maybe your team/alliance/ennemies haven't used any tactic, this time or all the time. But it can truely decide who win.

[kttdestroyer]

I give up with you kttdestroyer since you know more about pvp thant pvpers gang...

Yes, i have been in a pvp gang like i said (participated in some biggest battles on the server), so, we should know the same much i assume. My intentions were not to harm your feelings but examine the "tactical" situations and how to extand their power in pvp battles. So, instead of going frustrated, please respond, i will gladly hear your opinion on how to make it happend.

Well, I am very often in big PvP gang fight. And I can say you, skill and tactics matter far much than you seem to think. Maybe your team/alliance/ennemies haven't used any tactic, this time or all the time. But it can truely decide who win.

Yes, and we used god will. It compares to your unexplained word "Tactics" and is of same size. Tell me the tactical elements and we can discuss, otherwise you are just writing magic words and we are far from the land of OZ.

To help you get going: Tell me, how you kill 10 power builds (220-250 hp with CA, 3 snipers, 4 rocket lunchers, 3 minigunners) with your 5 power builds (220-250 hp with CA, you choose what kind) with usage of tactics?

The Scenario looks like this, your 5 are on wm. The 10 enemy in numbers are in Klamath trapper area waiting.

How you build your character should affect how successful it is. There is 0.000001% chance of that fact changing.

However, having said that, there could be a lot more variation inside those builds to open up more options to make combat more tactical - which is what we're aiming to do via the perk revisions, which are being worked on at the moment.

I dont aim the builds on themselves. The SPECIAL is good base for a game. The problem i see, is the one you just said, that tactical options are currently limited a lot to the build. A lot better situation would be, in my opinion, if besides the build, there were extened tactical options (FOV is one of them, which is good, but still more area to improve on) that would allow one to overcome the diffrence in builds/items. Meaning, by using a tactical advantege you as a one char player (no alts) is able to kill a power build. Ofc, this is possible now to, but, 95% of sucess is luck in 1 on 1 situations (a crafter/combat char(no alt) against an alt powerbuild).

[Solar]

How you build your character should affect how successful it is. There is 0.000001% chance of that fact changing.

However, having said that, there could be a lot more variation inside those builds to open up more options to make combat more tactical - which is what we're aiming to do via the perk revisions, which are being worked on at the moment.

[Cha]

I give up with you kttdestroyer since you know more about pvp thant pvpers gang...

[Crazy]

Relax people, lets discuss rather then rage please. And excuse my sarcasm, but i just cant write in other way.

I do not see very much tactics here, most of the things you mentioned are either game knowlage (Range, which build is good against what, who to target meaning who is most dangerous against us) or communication issues (where to stand so you can shoot the enemy before he shots you, here comes fast clicking as a factor aswell). And we have logistics aswell, which is working quite well, although not really complicated.

So, lets break this up in smaller parts.

Managing groups and mixing builds, yes, some small tactical elements but currently and unfortunattly not a key element for who wins, no matter how you mix it, its more about not doing some fatal mistakes rather then gain advantage.

Very important, have a group of small range and long range, you have to manage them well to be effective. Big Gun in house: good. Big gun rushing snipers on open space: bad. (stupid example, but it's how it's work). If your ennemy is full sniper in open space, don't bring your big guns...

Scouting, yes, one needs to know if one can win or not, how big are enemy numbers and where they are/what they have, this not key element though (or it is, in a way of, if you got more people on WM then you can assume your victory/loose, which is kind of simple, and no more tactical then 7>5), becouse its mostly gives back a question: Attack, or not attack and from where?

Scouting is one of the most important thing! You know exactly where you ennemy are, that mean you exactly know where you can spawn safely, where you have to go and not go, when they are rushing your back, when there is another force which spawn...

Next, hex precise placement and range usage, yes, to be able to shoot first becouse you will see enemy before he sees you (and so, you have a lot easier to click first (damn again fast clicking)), not very complicated unless someone linkes to stand 1 hex from door with a rocket luncher, then it might be complicated for that one.

It's also having your best range, be sure be able to retreat/flank, see that your friends cannot be hit with you, that you big guns won't make friendly fire, and be able to take damage instead of snipers...

Logistics "Well, someone forgot his armor again?", or "Damn i forgot ammo...". Well, sarcastic, becouse i dont see this as problematic thing to do, i understand you mean to prepare for several attacks and having stuff placed close by to quickly go back to battle in case of need after death/ammo refill situation. Thats pretty simple, isint it? Its like bringing toilet paper to the toilet before... Well, you know what i mean.

Not so easy. Evryone can be surprised by the number of militia you shot, and you miss some ammo. One of your player died by some small attacks, and he have to get back ASAP to be ready for big fight.

Timings of attack, Yes, this could be a tactical element, too bad the battles seldom go on very long time to be able to use this in bigger extansion. To make this work currently it must be used in very small time frame to gain success. Attacking one from behind and front (surrounding enemy) might enable the attackers from behind to get their first shot in, but thats all in terms of advantage.

No, timing is very important, like it allow to everyone to spend their AP on the same time, and make bigger damage to ennemy. if one group attack first, ennemies regenrate Ap (or even heal with enough time) and it really less effective. Yeah, the window for good timing is small, but important, and still takable.

Hiding forces, why would anyone want to do that? Exept when in defense when you want to cheat enemy by showing them only small amount of your force (so the enemy thinks they can manage them). Thats the only situation i can think of. And currently, this brings it down to amount of numbers vs amount of numbers unfortunatly.

Usefull for sudden attack of big guns on sniper from short range foe. Can be deadly.

My conclusion:
I see none of those as key elements in combat, exept for the obvious. Most of those things are based again, on Fast clicking, Luck, and/or Builds. And communication which is teamwork.
You take good position and manage range/timing to gain the first click (first shot).
You scout, manage groups and micromanage logistics to manage the amounts of power builds (x vs y, Yes or no) (builds becouse non-power builds are not taken into account).
You hope to get lucky shots in the end, which might turn the tides of the battle.

I don't agree, for all point above.

In my opinion, none of the things you mentioned are key element to final victory unless opposite side completly lacks those.

I can say you it is, I already win/loose many fights because of tactic, even with unbalanced forces.

Been there, done that.

If you say so. Don't mean you know all of it (tough I don't think it's my case either)

[kttdestroyer]

Very important, have a group of small range and long range, you have to manage them well to be effective. Big Gun in house: good. Big gun rushing snipers on open space: bad. (stupid example, but it's how it's work). If your ennemy is full sniper in open space, don't bring your big guns...

Yes, but arent those obvious things? Do one have to really sweat his braincells to know that running with a P90 in open against sniper is not good idea? Like you said, its simple.

Scouting is one of the most important thing! You know exactly where you ennemy are, that mean you exactly know where you can spawn safely, where you have to go and not go, when they are rushing your back, when there is another force which spawn...

Yes, that is also obvious, it is just a thing you do before you enter. There is no other way. But is this key to victory? i mean does this decides final outcome of the battle? Or is it just standard procedure, that everybody does, to not make a fatal mistake.

It's also having your best range, be sure be able to retreat/flank, see that your friends cannot be hit with you, that you big guns won't make friendly fire, and be able to take damage instead of snipers...

Yes, dont kill eachother, hit-and-run, and snipers have low hp so, keep distance. Thats about it. That i believe is about not doing stupid mistakes, rather then masterminding a victory. Meaning, its something to do if you simply think rationally, its not dramatic advantage other then avoiding dramatic failure.

Not so easy. Evryone can be surprised by the number of militia you shot, and you miss some ammo. One of your player died by some small attacks, and he have to get back ASAP to be ready for big fight.

Yes, but i dont agree that it is not easy, just put some stuff in common tent near town, how is it complicated? It costs 10 hides.

No, timing is very important, like it allow to everyone to spend their AP on the same time, and make bigger damage to ennemy. if one group attack first, ennemies regenrate Ap (or even heal with enough time) and it really less effective. Yeah, the window for good timing is small, but important, and still takable.

Yes, but imagine if it were even more important. Wouldint the battle be a lot more tactical if this and some other of your/Cha's exemples were enchanced? Right now, every participat of the battle (if not lost somewhere) will still unleash his full ap in those 0.3 seconds. So the advantage gained by surrounding the enemy is limited by this.

Usefull for sudden attack of big guns on sniper from short range foe. Can be deadly.

But never is, becouse why should it? unless some solo snipers stand on spawn without any bg or rocket support. You would gain advantage of first shot, that is true.

I don't agree, for all point above.
I can say you it is, I already win/loose many fights because of tactic, even with unbalanced forces.

Well, most of those you mentioned no matter how you do them, dont have decisive role in a victory or loose (if you dont just skip them, which is hard becouse most of them just come naturally to mind even with medium game knowlage).

If you have 5 players like i said before, waiting on WM and in town you have 10 enemies waiting. All armed to teeth and power builds (220-250 hp). What does any of those things help you? rather then enemies complete lack of those? No matter where you attack from and how, you will still be needing luck to get the lucky shots, you will still need to click fast or do everything you can (choose where to stand) to shot/click first, and you will still need to have top gear/top build in this confrontation.

If you say so. Don't mean you know all of it (tough I don't think it's my case either)

The thing is, i do not believe there is much to know, once you know the engine, everything else is quite obvious, dont shot your team mates, dont try to point blank with a sniper against a minigunner, dont enter spawn with enemies on it, bring some stuff with you to battle... Its like i said, putting toilet paper in the toilet.

However, i do agree that some of those you/Cha mentioned are tactical issues, what i am saying is, that they are very limited in useage becouse of current engine. The Engine only allows a bit of them in other words. Personally, i would really like them to become major points in a pvp confrontation, i believe this would allow for more player and factions to take part in battles aswell. This would reduce importance of amount of players and would focus more on what each player is doing and how, a lot more then current combat system allows to.

[avv]

How you build your character should affect how successful it is. There is 0.000001% chance of that fact changing.

Good to know. But how are you going to balance crafting and fighting being fitted in one char? The skill caps are very high allowing chars become very good at something specific, like stealth or sniping so 180 or even 40 points invested elsewhere than combat skill always means that the crafter-fighter is weaker and therefore encourages alting

[Solar]

Well, its not been finalised. I know what I'd like it to be, but there are stages between what I'd like and what gets onto the server

But it would mean you could be a crafter/other things without impacting on your fighting ability at all.

[kttdestroyer]

On a side note, Fallout tactics even had firing time, although not that advanced as proposed (diffrent by weapon class); a rifle shot took around 1 sec same as smg burst and minigun, a pistol shot was quicker (around 0.7 seconds), and a knife was almost instant (0.2-0.3 seconds).

[avv]

But it would mean you could be a crafter/other things without impacting on your fighting ability at all.

Let's hope we get to this point some day. Gives some hope that devs do acknowledge certain problems with pvp.

On a side note, Fallout tactics even had firing time, although not that advanced as proposed (diffrent by weapon class); a rifle shot took around 1 sec same as smg burst and minigun, a pistol shot was quicker (around 0.7 seconds), and a knife was almost instant (0.2-0.3 seconds).

Fallout tactics isn't that good to compare when it comes to weapons because it had differend guns for differend game stages. Big guns were basically mid-late game weapons. Not that I disagree that weapons should have more detailed roles, but better examples would come out of jagged alliance II. For example a pistol could fire three or four times in the time it takes to turn, aim and fire a light machinegun. But at longer ranges pistols weren't that useful.

[kttdestroyer]

Well, i think it was good exemple in matter that, Fallout tactics was like this a try to bring a turnbased world over to a real time one, AND it was also a multiplayer game (Hinkley reminds me of Fallout Tactics acually, but is less tactical, more about simple shoting). In fallout tactics this for exemple mean, that if a knife melee char run up to a bg or sniper he could cut him 3 times before sniper fired once, this is not the case in fonline... In multiplayer, if you were hiding and then standing up to shot, a player that stand in front of you waiting would have advantage becouse he would fire faster then you. Meaning, holding a good position was a lot more improtant then here (and tactically usefull element).

JA2 is a totally diffrent level of tactical advancement, i think Fonline will never come close (i hope it would, and it never hurts of trying). Especially that the engine and graphics are limited quite a lot. But yes, i agree, and this is a vital point. The more you aim, the more time it should take, and the better chances of a good shot should be, it is just natural. And aswell naturally, this would be represented by amount of seconds/miliseconds in real time fights. Its for sure a game that many features can be taken, examined and usefull.

[VAULTB0Y]

Well, its not been finalised. I know what I'd like it to be, but there are stages between what I'd like and what gets onto the server

But it would mean you could be a crafter/other things without impacting on your fighting ability at all.

this sounds sooooo goooood, damn i am sick of using alts for crafting and fighting, i want one char who can craft and fight!
wouldnt the easiest solution for this be just to lower the requirements for the crafting skills? so u dont need 180 repair anymore to get level 3 armoroe for example?

[Floodnik]

that if a knife melee char run up to a bg or sniper he could cut him 3 times before sniper fired once, this is not the case in fonline...

It is.