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Author Topic: Real Time Combat  (Read 1326 times)

Real Time Combat
« on: September 30, 2010, 06:53:15 pm »

Intro:

I will be comparing at some moments to a diffrent game called Forgotten Hope that is a Battlefield 1942 mod. (its a WW2 first-person shooter)

As a start, we should figure out what are the key elements to a victory, whatever it is, modern battle, medieval duel or simple street fight, the key elements are still the same. No matter of size of the army. Few i dig up are, perception (see the enemy before he sees you), knowlage (knowing enemies options) and finally decision making (where, how and when). Now, in TB Fonline combat, none of those are base to victory, very seldom and mostly by the enemies complete lack of those rather then ones superiority one can make use of those 3. In RT combat (TC) those come to use, however, could be on bigger scale?

Something a nerd can call experience;
I can tell from Battlefield game and realism. So, in battlefield 1942 players had a lot HP (like in Fonline), and most guns were weak (like in Fonline, majority of guns are weak). Only head shot was one shot kills (like eye shots/critticals in Fonline). If you shot a whole magazine in ones torso, he would not die (like Fonline). So, the battlefield 1942 was a lot about, reflexes, quick button pressing and joysticks (insert aimbots)(mean, which players were favorized by the game to win). Now, Forgotten Hope is a mod that tried to make the game more realistic, players were given a lot less HP and weapons did more damage, a torso one bullet shot most often ended in player elimination (meaning, totally the opposite way). Now that players were so easly killed, they had to think, exacly those; where is the enemy? What does he see/do? what weapon does he have? how do i kill him without getting killed, or should i risk? My main point with this is, the mod made the game a lot more about those 3 key elements then luck, and gave this feeling (which i think is good) that you play the game rather then the game plays you.

Real Time PVP
In Real time combat, even though those 3 key elements matter, there is a lot of space of improvement in my opinion, as those key elements are not really key at many times. HP 200+ is a must, becouse, if one person having 150 hp meets in a direct confrontation a person having 240 hp then one that has 240 hp will most likely survive the first shot and the other wont, so, is it really good to keep the game rules to who survives first shot (whole usage of AP)? What if both died on first shot? If the starting HP at level 1 was higher, and the EN bonuses were lower, making the lowest possible HP for a player around 110 and highest around 180? Would that not encourage decision making? Then the winner will be decided more by perception (who spots who first, who looks around more simply), knowlage (knowing the map, what advantage can i get by standing here), decision (Should i wait for him or engage and from where?)

About AP, who shoots faster, a Minigun or a Luger? They fire both same fast. Acually i do not see the point of even having AP in RT at all. How it looks currently, is not representation of the Turn-based combat system of fallout. Becouse in TB, the minigun does take longer time then a luger to fire, thats why the AP. I believe that if firing a minigun represented the AP cost in real time, meaning it would take time to fire it (there could be diffrent ways of achiving that, one could be, if the minigun burst cost 6 (with BROF lets say) then it would take maybe 3 sec overally, and the damage will be counted out on first shot and then delivered on the target in 3 parts, so if the damage was 60 then it would go 20 each second for 3 seconds) would strongly improve the area of ability of making decision during combat, tactics in other words. It would probobly make the combat slower, and therfore more responsive (player will have more ability to respond to what he sees and take actions). Lets imagine two players, one sniper and one p90, p90 is walking out of the building and he doesint know that there is a sniper waiting for him outside, p90 is outside and he is in range of the sniper, the p90 spots the sniper and the sniper begins to eyeshot him (which cost a lot of AP and therefore takes time, 4 sec?), now the P90 has a choice attack or hide, attacking would require to run and hope that he will get in range before the sniper shots him or running back to the building, but that is his choice and tactic. Isint that more fun then just bang bang?
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Re: Real Time Combat
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2010, 08:02:19 pm »

I think if the shooting animations were altered to be more realistic, it would be more fair. Snipers and mini guns should take longer to shoot. Snipers need to be kept steady for long shots and miniguns need to begin rotation of barrels to start firing bullets. I don't mean they should cost more ap, the shooting animations should just be slower.
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Re: Real Time Combat
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2010, 08:38:03 pm »

well, as you noticed usualy second/third shot kills.

Most of RT build for now can do 1-2 shoots. All your AP's are gonna respawn in 5 seconds. So, person with 15 AP (i know that max for now is 14) has 3x more AP regen than person with 5 AP. So, if you have 7 ap and I have 9 AP - more likely im gonna kill you in RT : >
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Re: Real Time Combat
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2010, 08:44:10 pm »

So, person with 15 AP (i know that max for now is 14)

You forgot about +1 AP cookie!
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Re: Real Time Combat
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2010, 08:46:59 pm »

well, as you noticed usualy second/third shot kills.

Most of RT build for now can do 1-2 shoots. All your AP's are gonna respawn in 5 seconds. So, person with 15 AP (i know that max for now is 14) has 3x more AP regen than person with 5 AP. So, if you have 7 ap and I have 9 AP - more likely im gonna kill you in RT : >

Yes, exacly, is a lot about builds aswell, together with HP and we have point-click combat.
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Re: Real Time Combat
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2010, 05:54:28 pm »

It took me a while to discover the actual suggestion but once I found it I had to agree. So combat has too little options for players to affect their success. There's 2 factors: build and equipment. Achieving both takes only grinding, time and some knowledge of the game. It's very bad setting for multiplayer combat because the characters and their equipment do all the work for us.

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So, the battlefield 1942 was a lot about, reflexes, quick button pressing and joysticks

Don't forget thinking ahead of your enemy.

While battlefield was an fps game, fonline could be tactical action game when it comes to pvp. Important skills for succesful player would then be mostly strategic thinking, experience and teamwork. To complete this we need more combat options to invest our cleverness into, which are also available for everyone. Example of this would be that everyone can sneak effectively if you do it right, instead of just upping sneak skill%. In addition skills, perks and stats have to be reworked so that everyone can fight equally effectively but with differend style. This means that either all skills provide pvp bonus or none of them do. Same goes with perks.
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Re: Real Time Combat
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2010, 10:12:09 pm »

What implementing firing time (AP cost = Time cost to shoot in real time):

Make lower tier weapons usefull tactically, if you play it clever you could outsmart a user of more heavy weapon.

Teamwork for team pvp, big gunners and snipers would need support, if a SMG burster/granadier/unarmed finds a lonely sniper he would have the upperhand.

Intresting situations, think of two snipers fighting eachother in bigger city (like klamath) using buildings as covers (maybe make smoke appear from shots, making them visible far away enforcing sniper to stay focused and move around unnoticed)

Less braindead confrontations, 10 vs 10 standing on each side and shooting running into eachother, now every build has to think about his right placement (especially if minigunners would require time to turn their big guns aswell (avv idea))

Overally slower more clever combat, no more boom boom boom 5 secs later everyone is dead situations.

Totaly new possibilities of tactics, each side could take a position and hold, thinking of a way to breach enemies and outsmart them into victory, flank them or make a trap, running forward and click bursting would be gone forever!

Unarmed gets a boost, only thing left as instant click could be the unarmed/melee users giving them ability to run forward and smack the idea out of a sniper aiming for a eye shot.

It took me a while to discover the actual suggestion but once I found it I had to agree. So combat has too little options for players to affect their success. There's 2 factors: build and equipment. Achieving both takes only grinding, time and some knowledge of the game. It's very bad setting for multiplayer combat because the characters and their equipment do all the work for us.

Yes, i think this is the problem that has been bathering Fonline 2238 for long time, it restrics a lot players from entering pvp part of the game becouse its ruled by those who has equipment and power builds all as an effect of been part of big factions.

Don't forget thinking ahead of your enemy.

While battlefield was an fps game, fonline could be tactical action game when it comes to pvp. Important skills for succesful player would then be mostly strategic thinking, experience and teamwork. To complete this we need more combat options to invest our cleverness into, which are also available for everyone. Example of this would be that everyone can sneak effectively if you do it right, instead of just upping sneak skill%. In addition skills, perks and stats have to be reworked so that everyone can fight equally effectively but with differend style. This means that either all skills provide pvp bonus or none of them do. Same goes with perks.
Battlefield1942 was a fps game with little tactics, Forgotten hope was a mod for battlefield 1942 which changed the game and made it into a lot more tactical game, where teamwork, each player cleverness and team tactics were main factors to victory. However i think the skills are working quite well, sneak i think would work totally diffrent if the shooting time was implemented.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 10:40:39 pm by kttdestroyer »
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