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[HertogJan]

The more rolls you add, the less control the players have and the worse it's going to get. Rolls work against npcs because they cannot be fooled like players.

It doesn't matter how high ones steal% is. It doesn't give players the right to succeed more often against other players. Investing points in steal skill doesn't take any knowledge, experience or personal cleverness so they don't deserve any major outcome from it either.

Which is why I suggested to use part of the SPECIAL.
Your suggestion about skill percentage having no influence makes no sense.
Why should the hight of steal skill none or almost no influence and weapon skills or outdoor should?
Spending points in steal skill means you spend time to level your character, most likely at least partly by stealing.
You got experience from that, thus higher skill.
Again keep in mind that pure thief characters are hard to level and take quite some time to do so.

Generally you know the thief at the market is the one who is very eager to stand next to you. Alternatively you can just watch for 2 minutes and you'll see them stealing from other people.

As for distractions, you'll have to think of those to stop yourself being tagged as a thief, I can think of several excuses to be standing next to someone right now, I'm sure people will think of more. A guy called Vegeta used a clever one on me a while ago trying to unarmed PK me.

People stand next to you for all kinds of reasons.
Many people just walk next to someone else when they want to trade.
There's no necessity for it, they just do so.
Others like walk into 2 or 3 people having a private conversation to eavesdrop on them.
In this particular case the eavesdropper was the one being stolen from 

Keep in mind that with the current animations you can see no difference between someone using FA and someone using steal skill.
People do use FA on others while the patient doesn't ask for it.

[smoothjesus]

People stand next to you for all kinds of reasons.
Many people just walk next to someone else when they want to trade.
There's no necessity for it, they just do so.
Others like walk into 2 or 3 people having a private conversation to eavesdrop on them.
In this particular case the eavesdropper was the one being stolen from 

Keep in mind that with the current animations you can see no difference between someone using FA and someone using steal skill.
People do use FA on others while the patient doesn't ask for it.

Solution: If a stranger stands next to you for no reason you tag them as a thief and push them away.
If I want FA I'll ask for it, if I want to trade I'll ask for it and if somebody eavesdrops on me I'll move conversation to the WM.

My point is:
It isn't hard to spot a thief.
It is in fact easy to spot a thief. Because (see above) it isn't hard to spot a thief.
If you were to assume it was difficult to spot a thief you would be making the wrong assumption.

They don't even have to try and hide their actions. I've seen many people being chased out of town by thieves because they had good items in their inventory, this is wrong... even though it is funny.

[HertogJan]

Solution: If a stranger stands next to you for no reason you tag them as a thief and push them away.
If I want FA I'll ask for it, if I want to trade I'll ask for it and if somebody eavesdrops on me I'll move conversation to the WM.

My point is:
It isn't hard to spot a thief.
It is in fact easy to spot a thief. Because (see above) it isn't hard to spot a thief.
If you were to assume it was difficult to spot a thief you would be making the wrong assumption.

They don't even have to try and hide their actions. I've seen many people being chased out of town by thieves because they had good items in their inventory, this is wrong... even though it is funny.

Atm it's not hard to spot thieves due to the animation.
Plenty of people walking around just for fun, killing time or whatever else.
You may tag people standing next to you as a thief for just standing there, most people don't.
They just move away.

Thinking people got chased out of town due to their inventory is another assumption.
I've chased people (thanks to FA and steal animation being the same) around because they're tent followers, pk or just your random every day asshole.
Not because of their inventory.

People make a big deal out of something that's working fine for the most part.
Some minor adjustments are needed, nothing more, nothing less.

[smoothjesus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-nNTHyJu5c

this shouldn't happen.

one player prevented from trading by one other player.

Thinking people got chased out of town due to their inventory is another assumption.
I've chased people (thanks to FA and steal animation being the same) around because they're tent followers, pk or just your random every day asshole.
Not because of their inventory.

if I don't have anything in my inventory I don't run from thieves. So I think my assumption was fair.

[avv]

Which is why I suggested to use part of the SPECIAL.
Your suggestion about skill percentage having no influence makes no sense.
Why should the hight of steal skill none or almost no influence and weapon skills or outdoor should?
Spending points in steal skill means you spend time to level your character, most likely at least partly by stealing.
You got experience from that, thus higher skill.
Again keep in mind that pure thief characters are hard to level and take quite some time to do so.

Why skill percentage deciding a success is bad? Because it does the job for us players. It's basically the same thing if football players threw dice about who won a match, instead of competing in teamwork and agility.

It doesn't matter if it's special or skill percentage. It's the same concept. You've just invested points somewhere and that's it.

I never said wepons skills or outdoors should influence success. But they do it now which isn't however how it should be.

Levelling and exping doesn't have anything to do with player's cleverness. It takes time but you certainly cannot fail in levelling. You'll level up someday anyway.

[HertogJan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-nNTHyJu5c

this shouldn't happen.

one player prevented from trading by one other player.

if I don't have anything in my inventory I don't run from thieves. So I think my assumption was fair.

That's what I have been saying, there needs to be a solution to this.
Most tent followers have ammo and stims or something like that in their inventory.
If you don't have anything in your inventory, thieves won't bother you when they've noticed that.

Why skill percentage deciding a success is bad? Because it does the job for us players. It's basically the same thing if football players threw dice about who won a match, instead of competing in teamwork and agility.

It doesn't matter if it's special or skill percentage. It's the same concept. You've just invested points somewhere and that's it.

I never said wepons skills or outdoors should influence success. But they do it now which isn't however how it should be.

Levelling and exping doesn't have anything to do with player's cleverness. It takes time but you certainly cannot fail in levelling. You'll level up someday anyway.

Than I'm quite curious in your alternative for the SPECIAL and skills system.
That concept is part of this game.
And to remind you, I just failed stealing in NCR lost 25 karma points with NCR.
My skill is over 250.
Thieves fail regularly!
Just like players with max. hit chance will have misses in combat.

[avv]

Than I'm quite curious in your alternative for the SPECIAL and skills system.
That concept is part of this game.

Now that you ask...
Skills, stats and perks should only decide what you will most likely be doing, not how well you can do it. Besides, I've already told that stealing should be about clever use of strategic components. What I would do is to introduce a number of new factors to be taken into account when stealing. I guess the final check whether the stealing was succesful have to be a roll, but players should be able to affect them with their ingame decisions.

What would these factors to success be?
Darkness, guards line of sight, victim's carryweight, victim's injuries (easier to steal from blind lol), stealable item's weight compared to the overall weights of all carried items.
New componenst for thieves would be a chance to examine the victim and guards. Thief could be able to see guard's lines of sights and the carryweight of  players. This way he could try to spot the most vulnerable target, a dude whos carrying alot and standing in unguarded "blind spot".
Another component would be a chance to rise your chances by spending actionpoints while positioned right next to your victim. You could, for example stand 3 seconds next to your victim to receive 15% better chance to succeed. But you cannot do this if a guard is looking at you to prevent shop and workbench faggotry.

So what choices the victims have to fight pickpocketing?
Carry very little.
Avoid darkness.
Stay in guarded areas.

Components for victims to be utilized would be some sort of tagging as previously discussed and bodyguarding. Bodyguarding means that someone else keeps constant watch on you so that nobody gets to steal from you. Could be used when making big deals.

That concept is part of this game.

It's a concept from an old singleplayer where your opponents were npcs.

And to remind you, I just failed stealing in NCR lost 25 karma points with NCR.
My skill is over 250.
Thieves fail regularly!
Just like players with max. hit chance will have misses in combat.

What's your point? It doesn't matter whether you fail or succeed all the time, I'm looking for fun and challenging solution. The skill is not fine if you don't have enough options to affect your chances of success in first place. Otherwise it's just throwing dice.

[HertogJan]

Now that you ask...
Skills, stats and perks should only decide what you will most likely be doing, not how well you can do it. Besides, I've already told that stealing should be about clever use of strategic components. What I would do is to introduce a number of new factors to be taken into account when stealing. I guess the final check whether the stealing was succesful have to be a roll, but players should be able to affect them with their ingame decisions.

What would these factors to success be?
Darkness, guards line of sight, victim's carryweight, victim's injuries (easier to steal from blind lol), stealable item's weight compared to the overall weights of all carried items.
New componenst for thieves would be a chance to examine the victim and guards. Thief could be able to see guard's lines of sights and the carryweight of  players. This way he could try to spot the most vulnerable target, a dude whos carrying alot and standing in unguarded "blind spot".
Another component would be a chance to rise your chances by spending actionpoints while positioned right next to your victim. You could, for example stand 3 seconds next to your victim to receive 15% better chance to succeed. But you cannot do this if a guard is looking at you to prevent shop and workbench faggotry.

So what choices the victims have to fight pickpocketing?
Carry very little.
Avoid darkness.
Stay in guarded areas.

Carrying very little is already done by almost all players who go to towns where thieves can be expected to be.
I'm not sure, but I think blindness is already in the mix as lots of thieves leveled on blinded ghouls in Necropolis.
Item size is already consisered by the Pickpocket perk.
Weight could be added.

All interesting places for people to steal with a few exceptions are guarded.
Those few places which are not will soon be known and avoided by all or after enough complaining/whining guards will be added (same with blind spots in guard's line of sights).
So this means bye bye thief characters as no thief is going to hang out in the unguarded towns to steal from people.
They'll get shot for sure.

I'm all in favour of adding darkness to the mix, but not just for thieving, also for fighting, sneaking (if not already in), etc.

Components for victims to be utilized would be some sort of tagging as previously discussed and bodyguarding. Bodyguarding means that someone else keeps constant watch on you so that nobody gets to steal from you. Could be used when making big deals.

Could be nice, but it should be limited to mercs and at least be related to charisma.

What's your point? It doesn't matter whether you fail or succeed all the time, I'm looking for fun and challenging solution. The skill is not fine if you don't have enough options to affect your chances of success in first place. Otherwise it's just throwing dice.

The point is that thieving wokrs fine.
There isn't 1 single skill where you have enough options to affect your chances of success, it's always a rolling of the dice.
To a degree it's better this way, or we would all be doing critical hits everytime we shoot (just to name something).

[avv]

Carrying very little is already done by almost all players who go to towns where thieves can be expected to be.
I'm not sure, but I think blindness is already in the mix as lots of thieves leveled on blinded ghouls in Necropolis.
Item size is already consisered by the Pickpocket perk.
Weight could be added.

First we got to decide how the stealing is going to work by default before thinking about perks.

All interesting places for people to steal with a few exceptions are guarded.
Those few places which are not will soon be known and avoided by all or after enough complaining/whining guards will be added (same with blind spots in guard's line of sights).
So this means bye bye thief characters as no thief is going to hang out in the unguarded towns to steal from people.
They'll get shot for sure.

I was thinking if guards would turn their attention elsewhere in regular intervals, creating blind spots. Of course certain places like shops and quests with long dialogues have to be constantly watched over or people won't have peace to perform important tasks.

Could be nice, but it should be limited to mercs and at least be related to charisma.

Could work in synergy with the current group-tagging.

The point is that thieving wokrs fine.

Maybe in singleplayer. Besides the very fact that you need very high skill to succeed and then can't do much else is very depressing and makes playing thief pretty much just levelling and pickpocketing. While thieves should also be spies, scouts and assasins at the same time. Thieving would be just their way to get some money, like crafters get money from stuff they make and sell.

There isn't 1 single skill where you have enough options to affect your chances of success, it's always a rolling of the dice.
To a degree it's better this way, or we would all be doing critical hits everytime we shoot (just to name something).

And that's why many aspects of our game just suck. Skills deciding directly your chances to succeed force very high investments in single skills and this causes alting. Not having enough options to affect your accuracy, for example makes combat very simple and straightforward.

Besides, we're talking about steal here, not other skills. If they fail it doesn't mean steal should too.

[HertogJan]

I was thinking if guards would turn their attention elsewhere in regular intervals, creating blind spots. Of course certain places like shops and quests with long dialogues have to be constantly watched over or people won't have peace to perform important tasks.

Define shop.
Buster's tent clearly.
Sha Enin's space?
It makes no sense.
Thieves go there were the money is, this means shops.
People want to trade safely?
Go in when it's quiet, avoid NCR, etc.
You might just as well make pk impossible in shops or questing.

Only thing that should change here is some shop owners and some shop/flc guards are stealable.
That's wrong.
It means you can always steal your stuff back if you fail and get killed.

Only thing your suggesting does is getting more people harassed at the NCR bazar, which means less people there.
People move, thieves follow.

Maybe in singleplayer. Besides the very fact that you need very high skill to succeed and then can't do much else is very depressing and makes playing thief pretty much just levelling and pickpocketing. While thieves should also be spies, scouts and assasins at the same time. Thieving would be just their way to get some money, like crafters get money from stuff they make and sell.

There's overlap between spies, scouts, thieves and assassins, but also some major differences.
A small gunner isn't a bg expert either.
Spies, scouts and assassins wouldn't steal as it means they risk getting caught.
They also come prepared, ready to do their job and get out.

There are a lot of better ways of getting money than just stealing.
My doctor alt for instance can make money a lot more easily than my thief alt.
Especially when the faction is helping with gathering materials.

And that's why many aspects of our game just suck. Skills deciding directly your chances to succeed force very high investments in single skills and this causes alting. Not having enough options to affect your accuracy, for example makes combat very simple and straightforward.

Besides, we're talking about steal here, not other skills. If they fail it doesn't mean steal should too.

Which is better than the current situation in which tools like FOCD means you have a huge advantage over people who don't use it (like auto aim).
Skills should have a lower max, 300% is bullshit.
Max. it to 200, only allow 1 skill to reach it, 1 at max. 180, 1 at max. 150, 1 or 2 at max. 120, etc.

All skills work simular.
Change all of them or none of them.
Don't change 1, just because you don't like the effects of it.

[avv]

Define shop.
Buster's tent clearly.
Sha Enin's space?

A house with shopkeeper and guards. Sha enin is more like a market booth.

Thieves go there were the money is, this means shops.

And merchants try to fend off thieves for harassing their customers. If thieves could just walk in and pickpocket every customer, the shopkeepers would have to resort into serious measures and only let one customer in at a time. So instead of re-mapping every shop it would be easier just not to allow excessive thievery in important places because players get annoyed if they are constantly harassed when trying to perform everyday tasks.

Instead thieves could prey on miners and random bystanders (player and npc alike). We just need more places where players had reasons to stand or spend time. Like casinos and bars. Or fighting pits where players could gamble, watch and fight. 

Besides pickpocketing shouldn't be the only way to steal. A "purse grab" method could be fun. It would work so that you run towards or past someone or let him run past you. Then you automatically grab something he has but you also get caught immediately. All there's left to do is to get out of town or hide. If your victim is able to kill you, guards return the item to him and take it from everyone who try to grap it before you. It's just many things are against this, like fast death, overreacting guards, badly working stealth. Not to mention highly abuse potential with other players and dying intentionally.

There's overlap between spies, scouts, thieves and assassins, but also some major differences.

Thieving spy, scout or assasin would be just a dude with various skills where stealing is only one of them.
Assassin would tag have sneak, sg or throwing or melee and steal.
Scout woud tag any weapon skill, steal and outdoorsman.
Spy would tag steal, sneak and traps or speech (James Bond) or science (hacker). And invest in some fighting skills averagely.
But right now there are no use for such builds.

There are a lot of better ways of getting money than just stealing.
My doctor alt for instance can make money a lot more easily than my thief alt.

If stealing was dependent on player's skill, a good thief could make a fortune.

Skills should have a lower max, 300% is bullshit.
Max. it to 200, only allow 1 skill to reach it, 1 at max. 180, 1 at max. 150, 1 or 2 at max. 120, etc.
All skills work simular.
Change all of them or none of them.
Don't change 1, just because you don't like the effects of it.

I didn't really mean to change just steal to 200% and leave others as they are. I simply meant that if other skills are such that player's abilities don't matter, it doesn't mean we can't implement such options for steal. I mean if we always just state "we can't fix this because these are broken too" we get nowhere.

[HertogJan]

A house with shopkeeper and guards. Sha enin is more like a market booth.

And merchants try to fend off thieves for harassing their customers. If thieves could just walk in and pickpocket every customer, the shopkeepers would have to resort into serious measures and only let one customer in at a time. So instead of re-mapping every shop it would be easier just not to allow excessive thievery in important places because players get annoyed if they are constantly harassed when trying to perform everyday tasks.

Still debatable.
VC is a guarded city.
So the shops in the guarded (innercity) need to be guarded too?
Also, once again, those thieves might be the merchant's best customers.
My thief account is also my main trading account and I know it's not just me.
Shopkeepers don't mind who they get business from, as long as they're getting it.

People also get harassed when hunting, mining, leveling, traveling, talking, etc.
Again, no need to make an exception for thieving.

Instead thieves could prey on miners and random bystanders (player and npc alike). We just need more places where players had reasons to stand or spend time. Like casinos and bars. Or fighting pits where players could gamble, watch and fight. 

People are already complaining about stealing from mining slaves.
If thieves start to prey on miners more, there will be enough complaining to have that limited too.
Thieves are also already stealing from npcs they know might have interesting items.
A few of those npcs are made unstealable like Boyce in Junktown and the iguana seller in The Hub.
(you can still use steal on them, but they can't be reached)

Besides pickpocketing shouldn't be the only way to steal. A "purse grab" method could be fun. It would work so that you run towards or past someone or let him run past you. Then you automatically grab something he has but you also get caught immediately. All there's left to do is to get out of town or hide. If your victim is able to kill you, guards return the item to him and take it from everyone who try to grap it before you. It's just many things are against this, like fast death, overreacting guards, badly working stealth. Not to mention highly abuse potential with other players and dying intentionally.

Purse grabbing, or even better grabbing equiped stuff (because it's in hands) could be fun, but you lose protection immediately.
Bystanders should be able to pick the stolen item up, but if they do, lose protection immediately too.
Something that could be nice when combined with a suicide bombing for instance ...

Thieving spy, scout or assasin would be just a dude with various skills where stealing is only one of them.
Assassin would tag have sneak, sg or throwing or melee and steal.
Scout woud tag any weapon skill, steal and outdoorsman.
Spy would tag steal, sneak and traps or speech (James Bond) or science (hacker). And invest in some fighting skills averagely.
But right now there are no use for such builds.

A scout would more likely invest in stealth or traps than in steal.
3rd tagged skill for a thief would more likely be lockpicking.

If stealing was dependent on player's skill, a good thief could make a fortune.

I didn't really mean to change just steal to 200% and leave others as they are. I simply meant that if other skills are such that player's abilities don't matter, it doesn't mean we can't implement such options for steal. I mean if we always just state "we can't fix this because these are broken too" we get nowhere.

You're wrong.
Like I (and not just me) said before, it's much easier to make money as a doctor.
It won't take long for thieves to become known as thief.
Some people shoot you regardless if you're protected or not.
Others keep a close eye on you and walk away if you come close, etc.

I do mean some and perhaps all skills should be limited to 200%.
That way we will see more general builds and less powerbuilds.
The only skill that slightly matters for stealing is the reaction time of the victim when he's trading.
How fast can you end trading and walk away?