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[Crazy]

Well guys, we just got a perfect example of a paranoid player, and the proof that make log visible won't really help: this guy will still cry to GM abuse because "he is probably on mumble and spy for this gang" or "He spawn items for his friends!" or "I PK him yesterday so he kick me of the event" or "he have killed me for free!" and "he make event only for his friends!".

[Kilgore]

Totally untrue, things like
- spawning items
- kicking out of the event
- making events
would be very likely included in the logs.

So, what's your point?

Well, new people get GM rights every month or so, soon whole game will be about "Hmm we can't do X but wait my buddy has a GM friend, so we'll ask him and he'll make X or Y". All about friends, about which GM likes you, which not (Hey Samira, do you like me? I do like you!). And that sux.

[Heckler Spray]

You know, eBay, almost all GMs are not part of any big gang, they have friends, of course, but they don't favour them, event if they still communicate from time to time, like normal persons.
Concerning events, yeah, some are closed events, in the past, some were only for big faction wars, ( we just made one "training" event, I don't think it really matters, no ?). But most of GM events are public.
 
Now, back to the topic :
concerning the "rules", I think it should be the devs to be in charge to set those rules, because they can't be suspected to favour, or anything like that.

[Surf]

Dang, took me too long to write the previous message. This thread here is already alarmingly high in the "trolling/spamming" direction, so it is just in your own interest to behave a bit in here. I don't want to close a thread in which the previous pages were ok, with some good discussions, but then end in the same as everytime.


To make things clear (what has been stated many times before too) :

We can't favor our "friends" ingame. Ofcourse it would be a lie if some GMs would say "No, I don't have friends ingame".
It's just not possible, we would have kicked our sorry asses out of the post in no time. Just example: Some fellow german player I sometimes played with before receiving GM status asked me, to "decorate" his base with some objects. Sure, it's not really gamebreaking, it's just visual etc. But I couldn't do it, because it's not really allowed/unfair to others.
I think I know the other GMs well enough that they won't do that too, same goes for giving away items for free etc.
Of course a little, temporarily not game breaking favor like crazy said, turning one player to a dog etc. isn't that bad (half of the actual GMs don't even have the "power" to do it anyway). Such little things are more made to people who didn't just constantly caused trouble in the forums, the game etc. - jep this is true. We could all be a much better community with lesser twist and rage if some people wouldn't behave like jerks all the time.

[Kilgore]

You know, eBay, almost all GMs are not part of any big gang, they have friends, of course, but they don't favour them, event if they still communicate from time to time, like normal persons.

From my point of view:
Izual - was a member of Cajuns for long time as he was a GM, present on their mumble during TC actions, occasionally taking part in the battles with his "normal char" (I don't say he was using his GM powers as he was playing on his normal char, but the fact that as a GM he can easily know the builds, equipment and supplies in enemy bases makes his presence in such battles looking badly - it's a war, after all  )
Shangalar - was a member of Cajuns for hmm.. almost year? or more?
TheBob - was a member of Repo Men from the beginning to the end, dunno if he doesn't get angry if I call him my buddy
Skejwen - was a member of BBS and one of its founders before he became a GM, then he stopped playing his normal chars, whatever I write here: that he didn't spawn a single item for me, didn't change any skin for any of our chars, didn't help me in any other way - can be discarded by you, as there is no way for me to prove it
Jovanka - a member of Night Dragons before she became a GM, known for fighting PKers always and everywhere. Playing with her normal char, killed plenty of times by our gang, so it's normal she won't say anything good about it
Samira - similar story as that of Jovanka

[ISn2]

We all agree that the problem is in too big GM abilities... Publishing of game logs is not very good idea - it wont prove everything. We have some problems with cheaters I mean - fast re-logs, dual logs, bots - if developers solve this few problems, there is no need to give GM's rights to ban players. A lot of people use FR and DL, and any of GM cant do anything about it, in some cases they catch and jail few noobs like BrowarPL, but they cant catch them all - because its technical impossible. If GM/Dev's cant fully solve the problem of FR and DL - we need to legalize it. No law prohibiting - no banning. Why GM have uber sneak? There is no need to give them this ability, no sneak - no spying during TC. Why all (ok almost all) GM's have abilities to spawn any items, there is no need to give them such power - Nah nah, wee need items as a prize in events - so let the Dev's to spawn some valuable goods, so they known - when, why, how much and for what purpose...

@down Im not whining about spying Im just writing how we can solve it... Less rights - less accusations - less whining.

[Surf]

The devs are too busy with other more important things, and even if they want to organize some events a little help from GMs to control the crowd is always better. And really, the constant complaining about GMs "spying" during TC is getting on my nerves. Currently I just know about 3 people (including me) who even care to watch these fights sometimes at all.

I for myself do this to just watch as stated before, to punch away some time, to have something to watch while you're eating etc. Others are doing it to learn about how people use the new updates when it comes to TC etc.
All this false accusations are only causing the people helping in the team to less motivation, and that means also less events, less help when players are in need etc. So, as I said, it's just in your own interest to stop complaining about things which aren't true.

[Kilgore]

Observing the fights is nothing bad - I think that many players would do that if they have the opportunity.

Still, I don't know why GMs use their uber sneak while watching TC fights. There is absolutely no need to do that. I remember few fights observed by Ghosthack and scypior (if I remember correctly, after introducing new TC) - they just stood there and observed it and nobody gave a shit about it - they even took few hits but who cares? As long as they aren't warping players here and there, blocking doors or some other things like these - no one cares about their presence. Shit starts to hit the fan when they are standing in the middle of the battlefield using their GM accunt and at the same time, they are present on the voice communicator of one side.

[Surf]

At the beginning I did that too (standing there without sneak) but even the only presence of one GM/dev standing there changes the behaviour of the players. I often had it that people said "hi Solar " or such and then they aren't concentrated at the battlefield etc. It's not we are masturbating on our godlike powers when doing this, it's just that we don't want to intefer with the actions going on, not passive, and ofcourse not active.

[Lonelylurker]

I agree that logs of GM actions should be available to other GMs. That way any genuine malfeasance could only be concealed by an all-inclusive conspiracy. The remainder of points#1&2 have already been declared as dead issues by developer decree and so further argument is pointless.


I find it almost inconceivable that someone with no prior contact with, or interest in Fonline:2238 (which would be necessary for true impartiality)would agree to shoulder the amount of work required to properly preform the position proposed in point#3 without getting paid, a lot.


I also have reservations about point#4 for the following reason:

The job the of the GMs, or at least one of their jobs as I understand it, is to keep the game running smoothly and curb behavior which is possible within the mechanics of the game engine but prohibited/strongly discouraged because it detracts from either the environment intended by the developers or the enjoyment of the other players(i.e. Exploits and Griefing).

It is impossible to specifically prohibit every possible exploit because if they were well enough known to be precisely described ahead of time then they would have been fixed already.

It is also impossible to specify every possible action which can constitute griefing, both because of the subjective nature of the offense and because subtle differences of context can radically change the meaning of an action. For example; sneaking into a crowd of people in NCR and blowing your character up for the amusement of knowing people will be upset is clearly griefing, while sneaking into a town which a rival gang is in the process of seizing and blowing your character up in order to soften up the enemy force prior to your faction's big attack can be plausibly justified as a legitimate tactic of battle.

For these reasons (among others) it is necessary for GMs to have a certain degree of discretionary freedom of action, any 'all-inclusive' list as proposed would be necessarily incomplete and would effectively prohibit the GMs from doing their jobs in some circumstances. The list could of course use such terms as 'reasonable' and 'appropriate' in an effort to preserve the capacity for such judgment but wouldn't that just change the nature of complaints to claims that such-and-such a GM used that judgment improperly?

[Flick]

Who watch the watchman?  in devs we trust

GM are human so they may make a mistake (and no one want lynch they for this), but they are human so a bit of control is needed

No way would anyone outside staff members ever have access to log files.
If you do that, you open your doors wide for cheaters and exploiters as you give them all the information needed on how to prevent detection.

I agree then think something different

I support  

as a compromise for log access I think GMs should have access to commands logs of other GMs, so we could control each other.

I thank the GM for the work they do, and pity them because they lose the better part of the fun of the server

[HertogJan]

We all agree that the problem is in too big GM abilities... Publishing of game logs is not very good idea - it wont prove everything. We have some problems with cheaters I mean - fast re-logs, dual logs, bots - if developers solve this few problems, there is no need to give GM's rights to ban players. A lot of people use FR and DL, and any of GM cant do anything about it, in some cases they catch and jail few noobs like BrowarPL, but they cant catch them all - because its technical impossible. If GM/Dev's cant fully solve the problem of FR and DL - we need to legalize it. No law prohibiting - no banning. Why GM have uber sneak? There is no need to give them this ability, no sneak - no spying during TC. Why all (ok almost all) GM's have abilities to spawn any items, there is no need to give them such power - Nah nah, wee need items as a prize in events - so let the Dev's to spawn some valuable goods, so they known - when, why, how much and for what purpose...

@down Im not whining about spying Im just writing how we can solve it... Less rights - less accusations - less whining.

I and many others aren't complaining.
Personally I'm looking at this from a positive point of view meaning I assume GMs won't abuse their powers.
To err is human, so it will occasionally happen but not as frequent and structured as is suggested by some people.

As for GM's powers, I think they have what they need in order to do their jobs properly.
Yes they should be able to (temporarily) ban players, spawn items etc.
You're looking at this at from a player's point of view.
You forget GM's also test stuff like new features, organize events, etc. in which it's useful for them if they're able to spawn items.
We can all think of some (realistic) ways to detect part of the dual logging and fast relogging.
Like you said and I have the same experience as admin, it's impossible to catch all cheaters simply because it's technologically impossible.
Nevertheless you shouldn't legalize dual logging and fast relogging as it will destroy gameplay on the server.

As for TC, I have no experience with that, but personally I would watch it from time to time if I had the opportunity.
As for the accusations of spying for factions thing, I think it's exaggerated.
If you're right, think of this: what's preventing a GM from helping a befriended faction of raiding an opponents base or attacking them during traveling?
Exactly, nothing.

[Nice_Boat]

If you're right, think of this: what's preventing a GM from helping a befriended faction of raiding an opponents base or attacking them during traveling?
Exactly, nothing.

Not exactly nothing. Unlike some other GM misbehaviors mentioned earlier in this thread, this is serious and bears a pretty high risk of being caught in the act. Basically, if someone makes a screenshot of such a group going in, the GM is screwed. Anyway, I remember a GM threatening to raid BBS base like that if we keep our "awful PK attitude" going, so

Ideas 3 et 4 sound good, but where can we find this fair-minded guy ? We will never be agree to choose this guy...

How about #3 being 3 guys from the major alliances? Everyone would be watching everyone else, it'd be both balanced and hard to rig because those people would have conflicting interests. I mean, it sort of hit me - why pretend that people don't have their own prejudices (for example Shangalar here calling everyone disagreeing with lack of GM control abusers) if we could simply use those prejudices to create a better environment?

Also, guys, this thread is not about who did what. Let's work with what we have instead of throwing smack in all directions.

So, let's recapitulate. #1 for the public is out of the question. Nobody cares about #2. #3 and #4 are widely accepted.

Things left to discuss here:
#1 - would access to GM logs for GMs and the three "watchdogs" be disagreeable with anyone?
EDIT, because I forgot:
- whenever a GM performs an action related to a player character, the aforementioned player receives a text message what exactly was changed, who did it and what the effect is.
#3 - would you agree to have 3 watchdogs each from one of the groups of the big three? I don't see how we could choose one and the selection should be balanced to keep things fair, so perhaps someone could offer another criteria if the ones I proposed aren't acceptable?
#4 - mostly everyone agrees it's okay, so should the development of server rules get its separate thread or should it be left to Devs and GMs?

[Surf]

How about #3 being 3 guys from the major alliances? Everyone would be watching everyone else, it'd be both balanced and hard to rig because those people would have conflicting interests.

So this is what you are aiming for? No way this would ever happen, as 1) no one in the team is really interested in gang issues at all, it just isn't important who is a "leader" of one "big gang". Also, this would lead to ENDLESS discussions, forum would be drownend in an infinite spamming wave. Seriously, if such thing would happen, I wouldn't "waste" my time here anymore, as I would have to click on "delete" every few minutes. Bad idea.

[Shangalar]

Skejwen - was a member of BBS and one of its founders before he became a GM, then he stopped playing his normal chars, whatever I write here: that he didn't spawn a single item for me, didn't change any skin for any of our chars, didn't help me in any other way - can be discarded by you, as there is no way for me to prove it

Thanks for saying that. It's the same for us. Izual didnt even spawned a flower for us. When he became GM, he played with us several times with a normal char, acting like a simple solider following the lead. And he finally left the team officially, already to prevent false accusations of taking position in the fight.

And about me : I'm looking the fights, learning to make good videos at the moment. And, yeah, I'm hidden during the fight, but I often appear to congratulate winners of a big fight or so. I'm not for one special gang, I hate everyone except my gang, which is not involved a lot in TC, and doesnt need my help anyway to scoot or whatever, sneak is enough for them. Anyway, every time they ask for fun to me to make an abuse, I just dont care. They wont take profit from me, and afaik, Reddot and VSB for example do know it well already.