Other > Closed suggestions
GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
Nice_Boat:
--- Quote from: Surf Solar on July 18, 2010, 04:53:38 pm ---Spying? I don't know how the others are doing this, but sometimes I just go there to watch it. I don't have reasons "to spy" someone or so. Sometimes it's good just seeing some people fight. ;) Also, no need to video just some random TC battle I watch while eating my lunch, just to have something to watch.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, but when a GM affiliated with a gang does that it becomes something in a different league... especially if he posts a screenshot with his party on mumble in another thread.
--- Quote from: Surf Solar on July 18, 2010, 04:53:38 pm ---As for the rest: well, I wouldn't mind. It's not that our actions aren't logged already. I wouldn't matter seeing my logs somewhere here, but I doubt it's needed as it will only lead to more unneeded work. It's not just that easy censoring some sensitive information via a script, every log would need to be read/edited by hand everytime and it's tedious.
Besides this, it's not really the players job to overwatch the GMs, others are doing it already.
--- End quote ---
Well, I know they are. I also know that it's not really that streamlined. Given the fact that it takes a lot of time, I don't think that the devs could and should be bothered with investigating such issues. Players could provide them with evidence, and then they could simply assess the situation. Players are the perfect watchdog simply because their resources when it comes to time are almost infinite compared with what the Devs or GMs have, and they really have a reason to care. I don't see how it can't be the 2238 society's job to overwatch its GM-police anyway. As for censoring sensitive information (in this case dialogue), come on. Is it that hard to have a script replacing the line "player x said hi" with "player x said **"? I don't know what format you're using, but it can't be that hard.
--- Quote from: Surf Solar on July 18, 2010, 04:53:38 pm ---As I can see this here, @ this "GMs spying for their respective gang at others peoples bases" etc I can't tell. I never was part of a bigger gang and I doubt I will ever be. So I'm not really biased and don't even see a reason to "spy" in TC fights etc, it's not that players couldn't do that too when they are sneaky etc. But - I doubt other GMs are doing this too. As you say for yourself, Nice_Boat, there are no clear evicendences for such actions. Therefore it looks for me like the other ~20 threads we already have: "GM abuse" but with no evidence, just out of general paranoia.
--- End quote ---
Yeah, there is no clear evidence, but there are strong indications that it's happening. Actually, the only reason you didn't ever get hard evidence is because nobody is recording his game 24/7 and once you realise what happened it's already over. It's like this situation I've participated in with Kilgore going to bomb player X on a fresh char. Player X responds with saying "hi Kilgore" (he was lvl 1, starting gear and shit, straight from the first spawn location). Weird stuff, especially since Kilgore was talking Russian. Now, let's assume player X is clairvoyant. But it doesn't stop there. Kilgore goes to another location on the map, I give him armed dynamte by placing it on the ground. I move one hex away so that he could grab it. He tries, but dynamite disappears. It exploded 50 seconds later on the other side of the map. Now, that's a good sneaker, to avoid being noticed by two PCs and stealing something 1 hex away from them.
Of course that's rather silly, but it happened and it really makes me question the notion that all GMs see no reason in spying for a gang. And it certainly makes me way more paranoid than I usually am.
Steve Zissou:
You should Fraps TC fights like Izual and post them which would give hard evidence. This is all hearsay, we don't know if you are being biased from the past due to bad run-ins with GMs, or if the GMs themselves are acting in poor taste.
I'm sure this is because of when I think rejfyl claimed Cadiliac blew up his gun for swearing, but if a GM did this I'm sure it would've been logged.
Gatling:
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 18, 2010, 03:50:35 pm ---- the playerbase obviously loses, being deprived of a fair gaming environment;
- the fair GMs lose because they lose respect as a group and people start treating all GMs as enemies, threat etc., avoiding them and making their job harder;
...
Furthermore, having such a morally ambiguous opposition between the GMs and players encourages cheating on the part of the players, with two simple psychological mechanisms working for it: "if they are supposed to enforce the law and set the standards and they cheat, why can't I?" and "they cheated me out of X and punished me for no reason, I have to cheat to compensate".
--- End quote ---
-The gaming environment is fair, paranoia only says that is not. While certain things may have happened, this does Not change the overall gameplay, and if someone Does let something like this really bother them, they are dwelling considerably too much upon it.
-GMs will always lose respect as a group, because soon as someone says 'no' to something, they're being a bad booger about it. And the fair GMs will not lose any respect on their own if they do things right, and the players who know them Will know this. Despite my own hostile and often odd view of things, I still have managed to do GMly things without having someone fear-monger about me.
And no, paranoia is not a justifiable excuse to cheating. People will cheat Anyway, whether they feel jilted by a higher power, or not, just because people like to get ahead any possible way.
However, I do agree with Jovanka in wanting the logs available to ourselves, as they are not at present. One reason being to police ourselves, but also because with several people who are making decisions and rules, having access to them would make another GMs work considerably easier in understanding and dealing with situations down the the road which may have been caused by a previous decision.
...Fear-mongering is the name of the game in this thread. And I do not approve, despite what may have prompted its inception.
Nice_Boat:
--- Quote from: Gatling on July 18, 2010, 06:10:02 pm ----The gaming environment is fair, paranoia only says that is not. While certain things may have happened, this does Not change the overall gameplay, and if someone Does let something like this really bother them, they are dwelling considerably too much upon it.
--- End quote ---
Oh, but things like destroying a legit caravan trap certainly change the overall gameplay and belong to the mildly-serious cathegory. Also, there was a certain GM who lost his powers because he tended to change the overall gameplay too much. So I hope we'll learn to agree to disagree on this one.
--- Quote from: Gatling on July 18, 2010, 06:10:02 pm ----GMs will always lose respect as a group, because soon as someone says 'no' to something, they're being a bad booger about it. And the fair GMs will not lose any respect on their own if they do things right, and the players who know them Will know this. Despite my own hostile and often odd view of things, I still have managed to do GMly things without having someone fear-monger about me.
--- End quote ---
You're wrong simply because there's no way of identifying the GM interacting with you at times, so the players can't really identify the ones that do things right and the ones that do things wrong.
--- Quote from: Gatling on July 18, 2010, 06:10:02 pm ---And no, paranoia is not a justifiable excuse to cheating. People will cheat Anyway, whether they feel jilted by a higher power, or not, just because people like to get ahead any possible way.
--- End quote ---
It's not an excuse and I didn't present it as an excuse, but the fact remains it's a psychological enabler.
--- Quote from: Gatling on July 18, 2010, 06:10:02 pm ---...Fear-mongering is the name of the game in this thread. And I do not approve, despite what may have prompted its inception.
--- End quote ---
If all that happens is fear-mongering, than why do you oppose making your activities public? If you don't do anything questionable, than certainly you should have nothing to fear, right? Especially since the information lag basically excludes the possibility of your current operations being jeopardized. Moreover, how can you be so sure about everyone in the GM team being fair, if your knowledge of their activities is very much limited?
And anyway, a system which allows paranoia setting in and nourishes it is bad and should be change. As I've said, there's basically no risk in transparency. Devs don't do secret special ops, they mostly do simple, repetitive work. If there are some procedures concerning cheat detection you'd rather have hidden from public view, they could always be censored from the logs as they're not really relevant to overwatching your actions.
Crazy:
Devs have the logs, I trust devs enough to be sure they won't let "GM abuse" happened. Also, when I see all the "GM ABUZ" thread and when I see that people who make these thread are wrong 95% of time, I don't think you have to bother with so much work to calm down a bit the paranoia.
In fact I find GMs far too gentle. It's a free game, if they find something reprehensible, it's their work to prevent it, even if it's not write in big letters in game rules. Publish the logs would just make players read every fucking line to find something to bother GM (and GM are humans, they do mistake, so they will find...). It will make them unconfortable and they will do a less effective work. So I don't think it's a so good idea.
"No rules about moderation. Enjoy your ban."
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