Other > Closed suggestions
GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
Gatling:
Just because I don't do anything illegal does not mean I also think that players think they have the right to dig their nose so deeply. I would like to keep things fair, but that does not mean it has to include You in the process. GMs are having to police players. Criminals in real life often cry foul of the police in order to cover their own skins. Letting the players into the knowledge of what we are doing is not something I approve of, but I DO approve and want to be able to police ourselves.
Right now, player says so-and-so did this, can't really do anything, but if we could have those logs, another GM could simply look into it themselves and see what was said/done. The only fear you should have during that would be that every single superior was corrupt and thus everyone covered everyone else. I do not think this is the case, so the open-book policy you want is unneeded and unwarranted.
In the end, it comes down to you trying to give yourself rights to something which you just don't have any right to ask for.
Nice_Boat:
--- Quote from: Crazy on July 18, 2010, 06:38:51 pm ---Devs have the logs, I trust devs enough to be sure they won't let "GM abuse" happened. Also, when I see all the "GM ABUZ" thread and when I see that people who make these thread are wrong 95% of time, I don't think you have to bother with so much work to calm down a bit the paranoia.
--- End quote ---
Reconite. It happened. The dynamite thing. It happened. The caravan thing. It happened, with screenshots. Yet you still blow the "paranoia" whistle. Okay, I'm paranoid. Actually, quite a lot of people are paranoid right now. Why can't we have a simple script or two and a new official checking the complaints we might fill to quell our paranoia is beyond my understanding.
--- Quote from: Crazy on July 18, 2010, 06:38:51 pm ---In fact I find GMs far too gentle. It's a free game, if they find something reprehensible, it's their work to prevent it, even if it's not write in big letters in game rules.
--- End quote ---
The moment Devs make it the official guideline for GMs I'm stopping playing, and I'm not going to be alone. I'm too old and too busy to be a plaything of a person that prevents or enforces something I'm not even sure exists beyond his or her imagination. I'm just happy even the GMs themselves probably wouldn't support it... at least officially.
--- Quote from: Crazy on July 18, 2010, 06:38:51 pm ---Publish the logs would just make players read every fucking line to find something to bother GM (and GM are humans, they do mistake, so they will find...). It will make them unconfortable and they will do a less effective work. So I don't think it's a so good idea.
"No rules about moderation. Enjoy your ban."
--- End quote ---
It'd actually help if they were people of a character strong enough to withstand this immense pressure. Moreover, you may enjoy rules resemblining dictatorship, but I'd rather have rule of law instead, thank you.
--- Quote from: Gatling on July 18, 2010, 06:45:49 pm ---Just because I don't do anything illegal does not mean I also think that players think they have the right to dig their nose so deeply. I would like to keep things fair, but that does not mean it has to include You in the process. GMs are having to police players. Criminals in real life often cry foul of the police in order to cover their own skins. Letting the players into the knowledge of what we are doing is not something I approve of, but I DO approve and want to be able to police ourselves.
--- End quote ---
In real life, people have a lot of control over their legal system. If they don't, it means they're living in a police state. I don't want to know how your utilities work in great detail and I don't care, but I want to know when were they used, for what reason and against whom. Your vision of good police work seems to be officer Anonymous shooting John Kowalsky to the head for reasons unknown and than saying that little Johnnie was behaving bad. My vision of good police work is officer John Wayne shooting John Kowalsky to the head because he was holding a hostage after escaping arrest imposed by a court with the possibility of appeal and a press officer describing the incident in detail so that the society could know what happened and protest if something wasn't right.
--- Quote from: Gatling on July 18, 2010, 06:45:49 pm ---Right now, player says so-and-so did this, can't really do anything, but if we could have those logs, another GM could simply look into it themselves and see what was said/done. The only fear you should have during that would be that every single superior was corrupt and thus everyone covered everyone else. I do not think this is the case, so the open-book policy you want is unneeded and unwarranted.
In the end, it comes down to you trying to give yourself rights to something which you just don't have any right to ask for.
--- End quote ---
I'm more worried about the "don't bother me" attitude which sadly is pretty common whenever a player asks something complicated of you. And it's not even that your activities are that secret right now, because most big gangs have a good understanding of what you can and what you can't do, so there's no real reason to pretend you're the 2238 equivalent of CIA. Open book policy would solve all issues players could have with your actions. Crosschecking between GMs would be a step forward, but it'd still leave some space for speculation, corruption and human error/laziness.
JovankaB:
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 18, 2010, 07:11:10 pm ---Reconite. It happened. The dynamite thing. It happened. The caravan thing. It happened, with screenshots. Yet you still blow the "paranoia" whistle. Okay, I'm paranoid.
--- End quote ---
First of all we don't know what happened with your dynamite. But I know there are bugs where items seem to disappear until you relog. It's much more probable than some GM watching your every step.
Reconite whatever he did, was fired and there is nothing to comment here.
So there is one more incident you talk about (probably dealing with some trollish caravan) that happened in a span of, how many - 8, 10 months?
Kilgore:
Solution:
This:
--- Quote ---1. Makes the logs of GM actions available to all players on a new, separate forum sub-board. Each GM would have his own thread, the logs would appear with a 24 hour lag to avoid leaking any information sensitive to their current work. This sub-board would be impossible to moderate by anyone except the devteam. The logs should be created via a script that'd filter through the general server log to work around the high ammount of micromanagement doing it manually would entice. People could just check any suspicious situations and report any instances of abuse to the devs. The logs would be automatically removed after a sensible preset ammount of time to conserve server space if necessary.
--- End quote ---
But to make things much more simple, as raw textfiles uploaded/modified SOMEWHERE where everyone can read it.
There is no need to hide whole dialogues when you can just hide who said it (instead of %player_name%, let it be %player_id% - every char has something like that, afaik or something). As soon as someone feels there is an abuse of GMs rights, he'll make few screenshots anyway, so in conjunction with such logs everything would be clear enough and no "secret dialogues" and their authors would be uncovered.
Such logs would be published after 1 or 3 days, I don't think that more would be necessary. Also, it would allow people screaming "ABUSE ABUSE" to calm down and start seeing things normally.
AND this:
--- Quote ---3. Make a person with a strong sense of justice from outside the GM and player groups responsible for assessing the complaints against GM and/or moderator abuse to avoid the aforementioned people being able to be judges in their own cause.
--- End quote ---
One person, but better two, or even three, would be enough. Let's call them XYZ. They don't need any special rights. They just need to know what GMs can do and what they are allowed to do.
So here's the procedure:
1. Player is the witness or the victim of someone with GM rights and the feel of "being a god". He thinks "meh it's ABUSE wtf I need to report it", so he reports what he saw to XYZ. Or he was just bored and read the log with GM actions, then he finds that GM X did nothing but stood in NCR all day and teleported random people to Glow without any reason. He reports it to XYZ (for example, via PM on forum).
2. XYZ reads the log and finds out that the player was wrong and poor GM X was totally innocent. So he replies: "sorry but it was X and all he did was absolutely right". But well, if he also finds out that GM X is a terrible abuser, he should consult it with others XYZ and then decide to report it to devs or not. Well, if there is only one XYZ, then he has to decide to report it or not on his own.
3. He writes a report to one of the devs if there is such a need, resulting from point 2.
Advantages:
+ devs don't get spammed about GM abuse
+ GMs can feel absolutely safe as long as they do their things right
+ players have the option to report wrong GM actions, instead of "PM the GM that banned/jailed/slapped/teleported you", which is in my opinion, ridiculous
+ XYZ isn't able to control GMs on his own
+ wrong GM actions that would be otherwise almost impossible to detect, would be detected and reported much easily
+ GMs would be forced to stop just playing with their powers (slapping, warping, killing NPCs, just spying) when they are only bored and out of other ideas - seriously, there is no need to enable your GM account when all you are planning to do is idling in NCR bazaar
Disadvantages:
- the biggest problem is to choose such a person, because it must be someone who is not a friend (real on just in game) of any active GMs, at the same time being someone who knows game a lot and also knows what GMs can do and what they can't do
- there will be much whining from GMs who are too used to being controlled only a bit
- XYZ would have a lot of work, especially in the beginning - but I don't think it's a big problem
- the possibility that if you choose wrong person, he'll just do nothing (because he's lazy, he doesn't like specific players, he likes specific GMs, he has no time)
--- Quote ---In the end, it comes down to you trying to give yourself rights to something which you just don't have any right to ask for.
--- End quote ---
Hey, but you are not the dev so you don't have any rights to say anything about what one can ask for and what one can't. Also, most GMs keep forgetting that GMs are for players and players aren't their property. Please take 3 mins to read just a bit about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamemaster
Still, I don't see why GMs are so upset about players knowing what they were doing in-game 3 days before.
GMs can observe all that players are doing, at any time, at any place. Why wouldn't players be allowed to know just a bit about what GMs are doing, then?
Also, I can't imagine how knowledge about a GM teleporting to player X and saying "you duallog" and banning him for XX years can improve cheating methods for anyone. Maybe I'm not enough of a cheater myself.
--- Quote ---Reconite whatever he did, was fired and there is nothing to comment here.
--- End quote ---
Of course it is, every time someone is claiming there was NO GM ABUSE ever.
Wire:
What if XYZ corrupt too? :>
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