Other > Closed suggestions
GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
HertogJan:
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 18, 2010, 09:41:46 pm ---Nice, it was just a StarCraft league in my case. I had three people checking my every punitive action and every player could file a complaint against my decision using an on-site form.
--- End quote ---
In my case it was a Wolfenstein Enemy Territory server (actually several, all from our own clan) with a clan leader who has close ties to the punkbuster crew.
(not giving names here)
Over time we helped to find and acknowledge a few exploits and hacks.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 18, 2010, 09:41:46 pm ---No, why? Sensible censorship when it comes to information that could help cheating wouldn't be shunned upon. And it's not like we don't know shit about what GMs can and can't do. Actually, I could paste a list here and it would probably be pretty close to being complete. As I've said before, it's no CIA secret.
--- End quote ---
And how will you avoid such information that's good for cheaters from being released?
The only way possible is manual labor.
GMs have information available we don't have access to.
Part of that information will most likely be used to identify possible cheats.
It's not about what they can and can't do, it's about the methods they use to identify cheaters and people abusing exploits.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 18, 2010, 09:41:46 pm ---Since you seem to be new to 2238, you probably missed the fact that GMs are not the owners of this server and this thread is endorsed by one of the "creators", whom I asked for permission before even mentioning this subject. Basically, the GMs are here to serve - both the Devs and us. Given the situation, I don't really feel like crawling under any rocks or ending my internet subscription, sorry.
--- End quote ---
I indeed have no idea who's the owner, I assumed it was at least 1 or more of the devs.
I also assumed devs made the rules.
There's nothing in my post to suggest I thought GMs are making the rules.
It also doesn't change the fact that we, as players and therefore guests (and beta testers) have no saying about the rules either.
Even worse, we have to keep in mind we are playing on someone else's server and therefore should keep in mind we are guests and act accordingly.
GMs are representing the host and should be respectful to their guests.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 18, 2010, 09:41:46 pm ---We aren't asking for anything more. To be made public, that is.
--- End quote ---
Your posts gave me a different impression.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 18, 2010, 09:41:46 pm ---The problem is GM activity is not top secret and as far as trusting GMs goes, please reffer to the origins of this thread (yes, entire national sub-board) and the arguments mentioned above.
--- End quote ---
If it's not top secret it makes one wonder what good releasing logs will do.
I have no idea what you mean with your comment about the Polish national board on this forum, but if I have to keep that origine in mind, I will.
Polish players don't have a good reputation with many none Polish players on this forum, I'm 1 of them.
I have a lot of experience with Polish players on Wolfenstein Enemy Territory and that's not good either.
Over 90% of the Polish players on our servers were banned for cheating.
Combining that with the demand of opening up logs for players, the first think that popped up in my mind is cheaters and exploiters will be thrilled by this.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 18, 2010, 09:41:46 pm ---It's actually an IRC channel and I somehow doubt they're preparing a battleplan before GM x decides he's going to slap player y for 9999 AP for no real reason.
--- End quote ---
I'm pretty sure there's some form of communciation going on.
Be it on a forum, IRC, or by some kind of player tag.
If not, the entire system wouldn't function and devs would have taken some serious measures by now.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 18, 2010, 09:41:46 pm ---And who's gonna check if they are? The Devs? Don't they have better things to do, like, you know, developing the game?
--- End quote ---
Like I said earlier, there are ways to log such changes to a players character.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 18, 2010, 09:41:46 pm ---ctrl + v "You should contact XYZ if you have any complaints against GM activities" -> Junk is more efficient than <Pointless Discussion> -> Junk and far less disturbing than "I don't really care" -> Junk.
--- End quote ---
The whining, etc. stays, wether logs are open or not.
It's not going to change anything on that end.
JustGreat:
With regards to posting logs:
- How does someone know the log isn't edited?
- Cross reference of logs by GMs would be a step up from the current system.
- At the same time however, logs can be circumvented by bad GM by using voice communication (if such GMs exist this is probably what they would do anyway since voice comm leaves no evidence).
For point 2, I don't think it will work because the screenshots are random, and what happens between one screenshot to the next is all speculation. I disagree with point 3 because it doesn't change anything (Solar Surf explained why in his previous post) and creates very demanding work for the liaison . I would add to 4, that it should also include rules for the GMs, so we know what they can and cannot do as well.
Badger:
Awful lot of work for a disgruntled minority of players. Instead we'll get complaints of doctored logs.
Nice_Boat:
--- Quote from: Surf Solar on July 18, 2010, 10:21:37 pm ---Rigged? As Jovanka already asked, what particular things happened to you so that you can say this game is rigged?
--- End quote ---
Reconite happened. Caravan rapes happened. Other, strange things happened. Not enough? What more do you want if GMs themselves admitted they can't be 100% sure one of their kind is not exploiting here?
--- Quote from: Surf Solar on July 18, 2010, 10:21:37 pm ---More then a few people are fully fine with the team members (and no, we don't give a away free stuff ::) ).
If one has positive feelings about something, (s)he doesn't write that much on the forum, but if one thinks he has been harassed by "GM abuse" which is in 90% of the cases just a mistake, (s)he writes that in the forum as negative feedback.
That's just human. Still don't see what is "rigged" here, you are making an elephant out of a mosquito.
--- End quote ---
We both know that we can't really assess whether it's a mosquito or an elephant because it's pretty dark here, but one thing is obvious: the motherfucker bites. It's enough to seek a solution.
--- Quote from: HertogJan on July 18, 2010, 10:23:30 pm ---And how will you avoid such information that's good for cheaters from being released?
The only way possible is manual labor.
GMs have information available we don't have access to.
Part of that information will most likely be used to identify possible cheats.
It's not about what they can and can't do, it's about the methods they use to identify cheaters and people abusing exploits.
...
If it's not top secret it makes one wonder what good releasing logs will do.
--- End quote ---
The situation here is sort of fucked up. Basically, people here know what the GMs can and can't do, but they have no info on how they're using their powers. On most other game servers, people have plenty of feedback on how they're using their powers, but don't know jack shit about what's happening behind the scenes. The only thing I'm fighting for here is the ability to know three things whenever a GM interacts with a player: who, with whom, what did he do. I don't really care about "how", because I know more than I would care for.
--- Quote from: HertogJan on July 18, 2010, 10:23:30 pm ---I have no idea what you mean with your comment about the Polish national board on this forum, but if I have to keep that origine in mind, I will.
Polish players don't have a good reputation with many none Polish players on this forum, I'm 1 of them.
I have a lot of experience with Polish players on Wolfenstein Enemy Territory and that's not good either.
Over 90% of the Polish players on our servers were banned for cheating.
Combining that with the demand of opening up logs for players, the first think that popped up in my mind is cheaters and exploiters will be thrilled by this.
--- End quote ---
Well, if you want to be racist here please keep it to yourself. I don't really want to know about your prejudices. Just FYI, 2 of the GMs are Poles and there's a Pole in the Dev team.
--- Quote from: JustGreat on July 18, 2010, 10:33:05 pm ---- How does someone know the log isn't edited?
--- End quote ---
Because it'd be generated via a script and wouldn't allow any human interference aside from the Dev team.
--- Quote from: Badger on July 18, 2010, 10:36:12 pm ---Awful lot of work for a disgruntled minority of players. Instead we'll get complaints of doctored logs.
--- End quote ---
It's a single script, a new subforum and a new official. Oh, and quite a lot of players feeling it's necessary to implement something like that. And no, we wouldn't get complaints because *see above*.
Floodnik:
Actually, 3 GMs and 2 Devs.
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