Other > Closed suggestions
GM abuse counteraction, GM activity to be made transparent
Shangalar:
--- Quote ---The fact that she has it in signature is quite important, because it reflects her feelings about beta-testers. But what to expect from someone that stated many times that most of beta-testers are completely useless.
--- End quote ---
As you might have seen, more than one GM has such funny sentence to remember players can be asses :)
Being GM, and also dev if we talk about this, is often being harrassed by players who just don't respect them at all. ("gimme a fokin PA, asshole !")
You can see this as a way to externalize, because despite what you all say about GM abuse, in 90% of the situations, we just shut our mouths. But sometimes, players just go too far with provocations. And they reap what they sow.
Anyway, some of the oldest GMs may feel tired, and need a little break. We new GMs are also here for that. End of the bracket.
Nice_Boat:
--- Quote from: HertogJan on July 19, 2010, 11:57:36 pm ---So as soon as people disagree with you it's not constructive?
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This thread was about X. People Started talking Y. I said it wasn't constructive. Simple logics. Maybe it works different on ET servers, but hey, it's like that everywhere else, so please adapt.
--- Quote from: HertogJan on July 19, 2010, 11:57:36 pm ---If there's someone in this thread who isn't constructive it's you as you don't respond to arguments made by various people.
If people didn't care, they wouldn't be posting in this thread.
--- End quote ---
Arguments like...? Because the only arguments against I've seen up to this point are "you're an asshole" and "GMs are always right".
--- Quote from: HertogJan on July 19, 2010, 11:57:36 pm ---Some people judged you based upon your passed behavior, don't blame them if that doesn't turn out to be good for you.
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Oh but I will blame them till the end of the world if their job is supposed to entail treating everyone equally.
--- Quote from: HertogJan on July 19, 2010, 11:57:36 pm ---1 more time: there is not 1 single game in which players have any level of control over GMs and this shouldn't be the first one.
--- End quote ---
StarCraft. And I bet there's more. Basically, every competitive game has a system of complaints and appeal. You're lying. Get out.
--- Quote from: HertogJan on July 19, 2010, 11:57:36 pm ---I refuse to believe that there are GMs who are regularly harassing players from certain factions or just players in general.
Either you are paranoid or you have been punished for bad behavior.
Either way it's not a reason for such extreme measures.
I'm pretty sure if devs where under the impression the GMs are doing a bad job, they would have done something about it already.
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I refuse to believe you have a functional brain. Actually, saying that is on equal footing with what you've said when it comes to probability.
--- Quote from: HertogJan on July 19, 2010, 11:57:36 pm ---Coming back to your points 1 more time:
1. Bad idea for a variety of reasons. GM logs should only be available to other GMs and to devs. Add a line to player logs when devs do certain actions to their accounts like teleporting, adding/removing/altering items, skin, etc. If players want to report GM behavior they need to add the logs and in the logs should be a time stamp of the in game time. No time stamp means the thread is moved to junk.
--- End quote ---
You seem to be quite slow, so I'll explain. The devs said no to public logs and yes to non-public logs, so we need to choose who is going to read them.
--- Quote from: HertogJan on July 19, 2010, 11:57:36 pm ---2. As mentioned already, virtually impossible.
--- End quote ---
About fucking time you noticed, Sherlock. But we're not talking about that right now.
--- Quote from: HertogJan on July 19, 2010, 11:57:36 pm ---3. This suggest there's a large amount of complaints about GM abuse and something is seriously wrong. i doubt that as there would be much more complaints about GM action than there are now. So far I've seen nothing more than a bunch of people whining about things they think happened.
Having 1 person from each major gang be part of this? No way. As I said before, bad behavior, for instance by your gang, should not be rewarded. If this is the path devs want to take, they should take an experienced player who doesn't have ties with GMs and major gangs. I'm sure there are few around. Hopefully 1 of them is willing in case devs want to do this.
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Please elaborate. Because as far as I remember spawning unbiased people is not possible irl. But hey, you seem to be supporting corruption since the beginning, so why do I even bother asking?
--- Quote from: HertogJan on July 19, 2010, 11:57:36 pm ---4. A clear set of rules is okay, making things outside it unpunishable is an open invitation to using exploits (adding a rule about not using exploits won't change that).
Most important rule: behave and respect other people. If people follow this one up, most of the problems on the server would be gone.
--- End quote ---
Yes, yes, love and peace and weed and whatnot. Christ. Are you really that naive?
And no, the rules have to be very specific, else there's no point in making them. If an exploit appears that the devs don't want to see used, they can just edit the ruleset.
HertogJan:
--- Quote from: Kilgore on July 20, 2010, 02:52:40 am ---As I stated in some thread before, even those beta-testers, who are just so-called exploiters, cheaters and jerks (like pozzo or someone would say), help in developing this game, just by using those exploits/cheats/other stuff. The more they use it, the more important is to fix it.
--- End quote ---
If they would be helping with developing the game, they would report those exploits and cheats instead of using them till devs are made aware of them.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 20, 2010, 11:43:27 am ---This thread was about X. People Started talking Y. I said it wasn't constructive. Simple logics. Maybe it works different on ET servers, but hey, it's like that everywhere else, so please adapt.
--- End quote ---
You haven't been too constructive here either. Even your reply I'm replying too right now shows you have a problem with discussing things.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 20, 2010, 11:43:27 am ---Arguments like...? Because the only arguments against I've seen up to this point are "you're an asshole" and "GMs are always right".
--- End quote ---
Most arguments by you fall in the same "you're an asshole" category.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 20, 2010, 11:43:27 am ---Oh but I will blame them till the end of the world if their job is supposed to entail treating everyone equally.
--- End quote ---
Except for your word, I haven't seen anything which actually suggest they don't.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 20, 2010, 11:43:27 am ---StarCraft. And I bet there's more. Basically, every competitive game has a system of complaints and appeal. You're lying. Get out.
--- End quote ---
A system of complaints and appeal is something different than a system which give players a level of control over GMs.
So it's not me who's lying, it's you.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 20, 2010, 11:43:27 am ---I refuse to believe you have a functional brain. Actually, saying that is on equal footing with what you've said when it comes to probability.
You seem to be quite slow, so I'll explain. The devs said no to public logs and yes to non-public logs, so we need to choose who is going to read them.
About fucking time you noticed, Sherlock. But we're not talking about that right now.
--- End quote ---
Nice constructive comments. Keep is going.
As for opening logs to even a few players, enough comments against it have been made.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 20, 2010, 11:43:27 am ---Please elaborate. Because as far as I remember spawning unbiased people is not possible irl. But hey, you seem to be supporting corruption since the beginning, so why do I even bother asking?
--- End quote ---
Exactly the reason we shouldn't be picking people from the large factions as they'll most likely be less objective than someone who isn't allied to 1 of them or to GMs.
My whole reason for being against this crap is actually to prevent corruption or if there's any to stop it from spreading.
To put it in words you understand: I have absolutely no faith in giving responsibilities to people who have proven they can't handle them.
If you can't even show some manners in your communications in this thread, how should we expect you to have them if you're given responsibility?
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 20, 2010, 11:43:27 am ---Yes, yes, love and peace and weed and whatnot. Christ. Are you really that naive?
And no, the rules have to be very specific, else there's no point in making them. If an exploit appears that the devs don't want to see used, they can just edit the ruleset.
--- End quote ---
I think I've shown several times and very clearly I'm not naive enough to think you and the likes of you can handle certain responsibilities.
Specific rules means lots of situations will not be in the rules thus opening the door very wide for exploits.
Editing the ruleset means you're always 1 step behind and it still leaves the door open for exceptions.
Using exploits, cheats and hack should simply be prohibited as it's already.
Something that's normal in competitive games.
No need to explicitely name specific cheats, exploits and hacks.
Nice_Boat:
--- Quote from: HertogJan on July 20, 2010, 12:34:11 pm ---You haven't been too constructive here either. Even your reply I'm replying too right now shows you have a problem with discussing things.
Most arguments by you fall in the same "you're an asshole" category.
Except for your word, I haven't seen anything which actually suggest they don't.
--- End quote ---
So yeah, I pointed out that the system allows for GM abuse, supported it with an undisputable occurrence from the past (Reconite) and said we need watchdogs to prevent this which nobody denied and every and each of my opponents here didn't even take up, but of course that was of the "you're an asshole" category. Keep on trolling.
--- Quote from: HertogJan on July 20, 2010, 12:34:11 pm ---A system of complaints and appeal is something different than a system which give players a level of control over GMs.
So it's not me who's lying, it's you.
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Do I need to quote myself here? Nobody's talking player control anymore since Solar's post.
--- Quote from: HertogJan on July 20, 2010, 12:34:11 pm ---As for opening logs to even a few players, enough comments against it have been made.
--- End quote ---
Actually there were none whatsoever except "GMs are always right". Oh, and Solar sort of authorized it.
--- Quote from: HertogJan on July 20, 2010, 12:34:11 pm ---Exactly the reason we shouldn't be picking people from the large factions as they'll most likely be less objective than someone who isn't allied to 1 of them or to GMs.
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That's why we need to pick a few with conflicting interests and sympathies so that they can cover it all. Not like I didn't mention that a few pages ago.
The rest of your post goes more or less like
--- Quote from: HertogJan on July 20, 2010, 12:34:11 pm ---Herp Derp
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... to which I kindly reply with:
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat ---Durrrr
--- End quote ---
Seriously, you keep coming with a pretence of serious discussion, yet you prove again and again you either didn't read the entire thread or disregard the other side's arguments, which makes you a troll, which makes this post probably the last time I replied to you.
HertogJan:
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 20, 2010, 12:45:15 pm ---So yeah, I pointed out that the system allows for GM abuse, supported it with an undisputable occurrence from the past (Reconite) and said we need watchdogs to prevent this which nobody denied and every and each of my opponents here didn't even take up, but of course that was of the "you're an asshole" category. Keep on trolling.
--- End quote ---
Don't accuse others of trolling while you're the biggest throll in this thread.
The situation with Reconite (I assume happened before I started playing) has been solved.
Case closed, move on.
GMs have certain powers, the only way to prevent GMs from abusing them is to remove all GMs.
Sure some measures can be taking to lower the risk of abusive behavior, but completely preventing it is impossible.
Abuse can only be dealt with during or after it occured.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 20, 2010, 12:45:15 pm ---Do I have to quote myself here? Nobody's talking player control anymore since Solar's post.
--- End quote ---
I might be misunderstanding your posts here, but you're still suggesting it between the lines.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 20, 2010, 12:45:15 pm ---Actually there were none whatsoever except "GMs are always right". Oh, and Solar sort of authorized it.
--- End quote ---
Arguments have been made, but as I said in an earlier reply, you chose to ignore them instead of discussing them.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 20, 2010, 12:45:15 pm ---That's why we need to pick a few with conflicting interests and sympathies so that they can cover it all. Not like I didn't mention that a few pages ago.
--- End quote ---
Not like arguments, amongst others by me, against that haven't been made on the same pages
Again, better pick 1 who's above the parties with conflicting interests.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 20, 2010, 12:45:15 pm ---The rest of your posts goes more or less like
... to which I kindly reply with:
--- End quote ---
Again, very constructive dialog and trolling there by you.
Keep it up.
--- Quote from: Nice_Boat on July 20, 2010, 12:45:15 pm ---Seriously, you keep coming with a pretence of serious discussion, yet you prove again and again you either didn't read the entire thread or disregard the other side's arguments, which makes you a troll, which makes this post probably the last time I replied to you.
--- End quote ---
I did read the entire thread, let it be an example to you.
One more time, YOU are the one disregarding other people's arguments by calling them none constructive.
Even if I would by trolling in this thread, you are outdoing me easily.
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