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[Josefista]

Yeah. So now, let's nerf big guns again

Josefista, I know your chars and I know that you are using sneak Also I agree that fights with more than 50% chars involved using sneak aren't so interesting, but I don't like "NERF NERF NERF" whining even more.. things have to be balanced, not nerfed. Right now sneak is overpowered due to FOV disabled.. when they enable it, the only good sneakers will be those with 300 skill and even for them it will take a lot of skill to use it in a powerful way

I also dislike NERFing and I suggested eazy and fast solution for this problem (maybe its in that second thread in suggestion), but its seems to be not eazy and fast enough for devs or w/e :p

[silverq]

Yeah, now Wasteland is full of chinese Maoist ninjas...
Too bad they don't throw shurrikens instead of plasma grenades.

just got killed in San Francisco by a bunch of those ninjas   

Funny how I see it : they got in town, disappear, then reappear and kill people at entrance. Not even the guards can do a thing 

I must be playing some other game  Like HEROES online 

[Heckler Spray]

Men, we 're just trying to find a way to balance things, not to nerf the gameplay or to make it more and more realistic.
I don't think grenades are supposed to be a "burst weapon", it should stay a support option like it was before the wipe.
And if you don't want to add penalties to sneak, what do you want to do to balance it ?

In my own opinion, sneak chars should be some kind of scouts, spies, not Predators.

[Nice_Boat]

Men, we 're just trying to find a way to balance things, not to nerf the gameplay or to make it more and more realistic.
I don't think grenades are supposed to be a "burst weapon", it should stay a support option like it was before the wipe.
And if you don't want to add penalties to sneak, what do you want to do to balance it ?

In my own opinion, sneak chars should be some kind of scouts, spies, not Predators.

To balance sneak you balance sneak, you don't f**k an entire weapon group over, especially if it isn't all that powerful. You could do fine-tuning like that AFTER all the basic mechanics are in place and you're 100% fure they won't change. Besides, the "burst" (or the fact that you have to throw a lot of 'em to make it count) thing with grenades doesn't make them stronger, it makes them more resource consuming. You want to talk weapon balance, you should start talking damage output (ap/dmg ratio) instead of how it looks, the difference between 3 strong grenades and 5 weak grenades is that you can escape 5 grenades a bit easier if they don't knock you down. When you increase ap cost without increasing raw damage, you make the weapon less effective by a large %. If, for example, you make BRoF and FS ineffective with grenades you increase ap/attack from 2 to 4, therefore making that weapon 50% weaker, which would effectively remove it from the game as anything that doesn't deliver a more or less sure kil/incapacitationl with a full-ap attack isn't PvP-capable.

[gordulan]

i agree with boat, he has a very valid point

[Gothmog]

Im dont care what DEVs will change. I will adapt and kill crying pussis like you all the time. No mater if it will be minigun, plasma rifle, or overpowered rock.
I just take game as it is (as it DEVs make it) and use whats best to kill as many PK as i can.

Life simple kille or be killed.

[Josefista]

Im dont care what DEVs will change. I will adapt and kill crying pussis like you all the time. No mater if it will be minigun, plasma rifle, or overpowered rock.
I just take game as it is (as it DEVs make it) and use whats best to kill as many PK as i can.

Life simple kille or be killed.

ye, this man should be called BETATESTER!

[Magor]

ye, this man should be called BETATESTER!

Or kid with too much time to make new 21lvl char again and again

[Heckler Spray]

anything that doesn't deliver a more or less sure kil/incapacitationl with a full-ap attack isn't PvP-capable.

Well, I don't want to "punish" sneaky grenaders, but, seriously, do you find actual PvP interesting ? And I'm only talking about grenades. This "one burst/one shot, pawn, you're dead" thing is pretty boring, don't you think ?
That's why I think grenades should generate more damages, but in compensation grenaders 'd have to use more tactics/skills than just click 5 times in a row to kill their opponents.

[Nice_Boat]

Well, I don't want to "punish" sneaky grenaders, but, seriously, do you find actual PvP interesting ? And I'm only talking about grenades. This "one burst/one shot, pawn, you're dead" thing is pretty boring, don't you think ?
That's why I think grenades should generate more damages, but in compensation grenaders 'd have to use more tactics/skills than just click 5 times in a row to kill their opponents.

It's all about positioning, if you run up and click 5 times in a row you're dead and the target might even survive if he's quick (I'm talking group scenarios, 1v1 was always about who pulls the trigger first anyway). And yeah, I find following people around, attacking from proper distance at a proper moment from an angle that makes me go keyhole on my target (ie. attacking the person I want to kill while his buddies don't have LOS on me) and, especially, withdrawing without getting killed quite interesting. I'd say it's a bit more demanding than playing sniper/bg last session (but, as Kilgore said, it gives you a bit too much of an advantage if you do it right - but it's because of how sneak works, not because of grenades).

Anyway, there's much more tactics and skills concerning the actual attack once you're in a proper position with those 5 grenade clicks than with sniper click target-click eyes routine or BG "click 3 times" because the target can get out of your range before you're done and when that happens you basically can't resolve the encounter in your favour and have to stalk again. It's more or less the same problem as with HtH. The only weapon that should be sort of slowed down (to have a dmg output more or less on par with plasma nades) would be dynacord, as with 2 or even 3 ap/throw it would be simply ridiculous.

All in all, grenades aren't overpowered even with the current sneak, they give the attacked party a chance. BG and SG don't because they can't be "escaped" as the attacks are so much more rapid and devastating and they don't have the "reach limit". You could balance it by introducing weight penalties or simply disabling sneakrunning with a 2handed weapon in active slot. It'd probably work with FOV penalties back. I just hope the devs deal with the sneak situation without axing the skill like prewipe and without messing with weapon values, as that would be the wrong way out.

Another solution would be to introduce "hearing" sneaking characters from 4x sighting distance or something like that - you see a grey figure without any indication of its weapon and armor and can't attack it, but you can take measure like avoiding maneuvres. Or make the distance something like 3x sighting and allow attacking with a humongous chance to hit penalty for first shot. Or make the minimum spot distance equal your character's PE - so it'd be 10 hexes instead for 3 for 10 PE. That last solution would probably be best since it wouldn't mess with anything too much but would make coordination so much harder it'd all boil down to player skill and coordination (remember sneakers are immensely weaker once "decloaked" than normal fighters).

[Heckler Spray]

Yeah, you've got the point, Nice Boat, I agree.
Just one thing : for now, when a sneaky grenader is 5 hex next to you, most of the time you don't have enough time to get of his range to dodge the grenades rain.

"Hearing" and PE suggestions sound good too.



May they soon fix all this laggy/sneak thing, cause a lot of PvP players (the ones who don't want to use sneak perk especially) are all slowly giving up. And it's not good for business.

[DarkRyder]

FOV back, no lag

sneak char "¨deleteself password" 

don't use server space

[_Youkai_]

Or kid with too much time to make new 21lvl char again and again

LoL
^^ not everybody have time to up to lvl21 in 2 days... don't know why people still saying that.
If PvP continues like this, yeah I will make a new char with sneak, but not to go PvP, but to avoid this shit that it is right now.

[Reaver45]

making heavi armor penalties would be a good start and i think that sneaking should be more usefull as an avoiding skill than some frank horrigan killing skill

[avv]

Why not make sneaking most effective when unarmed. It would give melee chars a way to get close.

But honestly that's for future. As you can see this is what happens when major part of player's effectivity is based on his build: big outrage. Same thing will happen with steal, or has been going on but not so loudly because nobody cares what robbery-victim carebears say right? Same thing has been going on with all weapon skill% but nobody cares because it's the same for everybody. But the similarity between all these is following:

Sneak 300 = you're invisible
Steal 300 = You always succeed
Weaponskill% 300 = You never miss

Last thing is that if you wan't to make sneak a must to have combat skill, think how many armorsmith-fighters or doctor-fighters will want to participate pvp? So far only thing that's been absolutely must for pvp has been high weaponskill and even then you're out-builded. If there's going to be another necessary combat skill balanced build players will never want to participate pvp.