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What idea do you like or dislike? (6 votes per user max)

I like weapon failure idea
I like day/night idea
I like rain idea
I like interiors idea
I like blast of weapon idea
I like training accademy idea
I dont like any idea

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Author Topic: Huge weapon's changes  (Read 5192 times)

Lordus

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Huge weapon's changes
« on: April 14, 2010, 08:49:41 pm »

 I am posting the list of changes in weapon/combat area. I know that this changes are huge and i realize, that they cant be implemented in this era. But works on changes needs time, so maybe next era some of them will be implemented. Also, there are many ideas that can be implemented right now (tomorrow, next week :) ).

Premises:

1) Weapon firepower (and other atributies expect price) must be balanced first. Economy later. Economy will tip the scales.

2) Fights have to be longer.

3) Today, there are 2 weapons group: weapons good for leveling, and weapons good for PvP. There should not exist such a barrier.

4) 3 guns groups SG/BG/EW must be balanced. I mean balance, that in 6 player group, there will naturaly be 3 SG, 1 BG and 2 EW class of players. This must be developers aim, if they want to achive point 2).

5) In every class of weapons (SG/BG/EW) there must exist theese sub-classes of weapons:

 Defensive weapons / attack weapons.
 
 The major difference is, that devs do not need to balance guns across sub-groups, but only in each groups, because each weapon sub-group has another purpose.

 DW: pistols, revolvers, shortened shotguns/shotguns, some kind of SMGs, flamer.
 AW: riffles, hunting riffles, sniper riffles, some kind of SMG, combat shotguns, (laser/plasma rifles), machine guns, miniguns, rocket launchers

 DW weapons will have shorter distance and will be cheaper, more reliable, cheaper to use. AW opposite to DW sub-class.

 Suggestions:

1) Enviroment effect:

 Every weapon should have his own enviroment effect. Simple weapon, less effect, more complicate, bigger effect. Less effect, small requirements of your others than SG/BG/EW skill, bigger effect = bigger requirements.

 a) weapon failure

   If you want to shoot from your weapon, but your weapon will failure, you will need to use repair skill to "remove" a failure. You will have many chances to do this, because until you will "remove" a failure, you will not be able to repair (or damage) this weapon. This will also helps to reduce pure PvP chars domination in battlefield. More complicated weapons (plasma/sniper riffle/xl/miniguns) more repair skill you will need to remove the failure.

 [[Forrest has finished assembling his rifle]
Forrest Gump: DONE, DRILL SERGEANT!
Drill Sergeant: GUUUUUUMP! Why did you put that weapon together so quickly, Gump?
Forrest Gump: [confused] You told me to, Drill Sergeant?
Drill Sergeant: Jesus H. Christ!
[looks at stopwatch]
Drill Sergeant: This is a new company record! If it wouldn't be such a waste of a damn-fine enlisted man I'd recommend you for OCS! You are gonna be a general someday, Gump, now disassemble your weapon and continue!]



 b) day/night

   If there will someday exist day/night differencies which will affect perception, there should exist special addons to weapons, like night sight. Night sight should reduce this negative impact. But night sight will not be able for big guns class of weapons except LSW or machine gun.

 c) rain

   Not every weapon is fully ready to fight in water. Imagine acid, dense water raining, rain full of dust from wasteland. So more complicated weapons will have problem with reliability. Energetic weapons, best SG weapons (sniper riffle, XL,..), miniguns will have bigger chance to fail vis. a)

 d) interiors/exteriors

   If you are in exterior (under the clouds/sun), there will be no negative effect. But if you are in interior, there should be negative effect to all riffles (energetic/plasma, as. riffles too, except bull pop magazine riffles), machineguns, LSW, miniguns and rocket launchers. The negative impact is that you need 2 more action points to use this weapon in that conditions. So i.e. sniper will be unable to use his sniper riffle in interior, resp. he will be unable to shoot eyeshots. (And what about big interriors?? Depends on system, i agree that in assembly hall you will have conditions similar to conditions in exterior, but system/server may have problem with computing this).

         So, we will have finally usage for SMGs, pistols, shotguns in PvP fights. It is like in real world. Police commando uses MP5, shotguns, pistols inside, their snipers are outside the building.

 e) blast of weapons

   If you use rocket launcher, you will make a back blast (1,2, and 3 hexes, totaly 6 hexes (pyramid) behind you), so you can harm and will have very big chance to cripple players (teamates behind you). Also, in interier, you (RL possesor) will automaticaly get damage from back blast.

 

 2) Differencies amongs weapon classes:
 I suggest to make one gun (attributes) in fonline refferent, and then make refferent gun in every other classes and sub-classes.

 I.e.: FN FAL is refferent. FN is hase the same attribute (firepower, distance,magazine,..) like Assault riffle, but you will be able to choose ammo type in AR.

 Refferent guns: SG                       / EW                            / BG
      (x) FN FAL burst     / plasma riffle single shot  / LSW burst
       (y)Sniper r.eyeshot/ laser riffle eyeshot        /    N/A
 (x):
 DMG: One burst of FN FAL = one shot with plasma riffle < LSW burst
 Distance: FN > plasma = lsw
 AP: FN = plasma riffle < lsw burst

 (y):
 DMG: Sniper < laser
 Critical: Sniper > laser
 Distance: sniper = laser
 AP: sniper > laser
 Armor reduction: sniper = constant, laser = variable
 
 a) small guns:

 aa) positive attributes

 * many weapon types, so you can choose exactly that type you need in every conditions (+ special perks: long range, knockback...)

 * lower demand factor of maintanance (except sniper riffle and hi-tech weapons: xl ,...)

 * most of them will be able to burst

 * most of them is able to choose type of ammo

 * bigger chance of critical hit than EW

 * less action point need to use than EW

 ab) negative attributes:

 * only pistols, hunting riffle, sniper riffle and xl (gauss too) will be able to do eyeshots, rest. of SG class will have ability only headshot, but they will have chance to random eyeshots
 
 * lower average damages than EW

 b) energetic weapons

 ba) possitive attributes:

 * every EW will be able to do eyeshot

 * bigger average (constant) damages than SG


 bb) negative attributes:

 * less weapon types than SG

 * unable to burst

 * lower critical damages than SG

 * more AP needs to shot (+1)

 * unable to choose ammo type

 * bigger demand factor of maintanance (same as sniper riffle, XL, gauss LSW)

 c) big guns

 ca) possitive attributes:

 * bigger firepower than any other weapon class

 * splash damage (RLauncher)

 * bigger magazines

 cb) negative attributes:

 * unable to run with BG weapons in active slot (except LSW = LIGHT support weapon, but Lsw will have only quite bigger damage than SG assault riffles class (in burst), but penalty of little less range and not acurate perk)

 * unable to aim shots

 * more ammo consumable

 * biggest demand factor of maintanance (more than EW, SG.. Only LSW will have same as sniper riffle, xl, gauss lsw,...)

 * very long reload speed - except LWS (it is unable to reload RL in same time like assault riffle, same example is machine gun, minigun. In real world, you need 2 men to use RL or machine gun). I suggest 8 AP reload time for all BG except LSW (lsw +1 AP in opposite of assault riffles).

3) Crittical chance:

 I suggest give more propability of hand/leg cripple, than eyeshot. So it will be better to shot enemy weapon from his hand (or cripple him), than instakill him. Now it is opposite.

4) Measure against powerbuilds. Training accademy

 Soldier is not only man who knows how to push trigger. He needs basic knowledge of tactics, weapons (dis)assembling because of maintanance and first aid. He need to be quite universal. Because of that, soldier have to finish some basic training. So i suggest to make basic training accademy (quests). You will need 5 charisma (because of abusing drugs in that case), and specific amount of skill points in SG or BG or EW skill, FA, DOC, THROWING, UNARMED, MELEE, REPAIR nad OUTDOORSMAN skill.

 You will have to make special quests, where NPC will test you from this abilites. If you are unsuccesfull in one, you have to do every previous again. The test will looks that you have to use your previous described skills, some of them multiple times with specific percentage of succes you need, some you will have to do in first time attempt.

 If you succeed in this test, you will get special perk, that will give your (soldiers) skills special ability in comparsion of chars, who will have same or quite better skills, but they will not succed in Training accademy test. The benefit will be, that in certain combat action, you will have bigger chance of succes, or your minimal value of HP per FA will be bigger. Any pure PvP will not be able to achive this, because they will not have enough charisma (if the charisma requirement and drugs benefit is set to correct level):

 a) weapons fail => you need to use repair to shoot again => Accademy training (at least 75 percent chance to repair it)
 
 b) basic combat doctor/fa skill: Until the f****k FA weakness changes, i would suggest that only if you have this special quest (with non drug charisma), you will be able to heal yourself with at least constant rate of 50 HP per one use of FA (so maybe more if you have enough FA, but this will be minumum). So if you dont change this, i suggest 75 percent chance of heal wounded limbs, if you finished training academy.

 c) grenade throwing = at least( 50 percent) chance to hit on every distance
 d) outdoorsman = + 20 to outdoorsman
 e) unarmed = +..
 f) melee =+..
 g) maybe add little amount (20) of skill points to other than your main weapon skill (SG and BG if you are EW class cha)r, so you will be able to use this kind of guns in critical situation (your gun is broken, without ammo and you have only desert eagle to defence yourself..).

 Pure PvP will still dominant in their one weapon skill (snipers, more bursts minigunners, but their power builds will fail with removing the fail (stuck?) of their weapon,, FA, nades throwing,... As i wrote, even soldiers must be universal :) ) .
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 10:34:58 pm by Lordus »
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avv

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Re: Huge weapon's changes
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2010, 08:59:55 pm »

Problem with that interior shooting system is that the attack is launched immediately if you just got the action points. A smg or shotgun dude would never get to use his ap advantage if he's been riddled with 5mm.
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vedaras

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Re: Huge weapon's changes
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2010, 09:02:07 pm »

another shitty suggestion, congratulations! Huge work demanding for devs, and very doubtful about any advantages to current system if implementing it.

Lordus

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Re: Huge weapon's changes
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2010, 09:05:37 pm »

Problem with that interior shooting system is that the attack is launched immediately if you just got the action points. A smg or shotgun dude would never get to use his ap advantage if he's been riddled with 5mm.

 I posted complex changes. In my point of view, big guns should be kind of supporting weapons with special usage and with good players experience (real players, not chars), so there will be not exist common situation that player with minigun will often enter the small interiors, if he can expect knockdowning bursts from combat shotgun.
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Lordus

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Re: Huge weapon's changes
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2010, 09:12:57 pm »

another shitty suggestion, congratulations! Huge work demanding for devs, and very doubtful about any advantages to current system if implementing it.

 In my post, there are 2 good suggestions, sticking out over the my another ideas.

 Interior penalization for long barrel weapons and training accademy.

 These suggestions are aimed to PvP sector or gives usage for most underpowered weapons in this game. But i put here all of my ideas, because i dont want to flood suggestion forum with many threads. Also, if you have problem with reading the text, read this again:  I am posting the list of changes in weapon/combat area. I know that this changes are huge and i realize, that they cant be implemented in this era. But works on changes needs time, so maybe next era some of them will be implemented. Also, there are many ideas that can be implemented right now (tomorrow, next week  ).

 If you disagree, just vote last options and dont flood with your pubertal reactions this topic.
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vedaras

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Re: Huge weapon's changes
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2010, 09:28:53 pm »

pvp needs balancing not remaking it.

Johnny Nuclear

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Re: Huge weapon's changes
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2010, 10:38:44 pm »

-1 lordus
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Lordus

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Re: Huge weapon's changes
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2010, 11:13:08 pm »

-1 lordus
I know what are you afraid of, so:

 In PvP, there are 2 ways:

 * quick death and quick recovery = quake
 * longer fight and longer recovery
 
 But fonline is: quick death and longer recovery. So if i want to change this state, i must choose and i preffer longer fights:
 

 My premises are Longer fights and Weapon firepower must be balanced first. (Economy later) and wide usage of current guns.

 If i want to fight longer, i have to:

 1) raise HP of players
or
 2) essentialy lower the damage of weapons
or
 3) lower the number of best best weapons in battlefield
or
 4) combination.

 From some reaon, players and i think devs dont want to change HP of players. Also essentialy lowering of weapons damage is not the key (it is almost the same as raising HP of players). So there must be the choice n.3. Economy does not solve that problem in past 8 months (every wipe=big economy change). There are still many players usinig big guns => no long fights. Also, there is reason why BG has big firepower.

 So i suggested, that all of BG will have big disadvantage in other than firepower areas. Except LSW. I can imagine, that LSW can real soldier use in run, but not machinegun, not at all minigun or rocket launchers. LSW will be something like more powerfull assault riffle, with the same kind of usage (except eyeshots) and with other minor reductions (qite shorter distance, quite more action points needed,...). Also reloading is very long, in comparsion if you use assault riffle magazines.

 If you think that i am wrong, look to any war movie or series (The Pacific is good example). Also, i know, this is game and no realism. But in this game has problem called fast death and long recovery and i suggest solution here.
 
 Or look to another games: Counter strike: most powerfull weapon = sniper riffle.. it is unable to effectively use it without aiming thru the scope.. So there is disadvantage. TF2: Heavy guy = he has deadly firepower on short range, serious on middle range, and he is the slowest one.

  The problem of this current guns atributes, is that Fallout is single player game. There was natural development of weapon use thru the whore game. Everybody starts with pistol and ends it with vindicator/turboplasma rifle/gauss gun. But in fonline, it is reduced into 3-4 guns. It looks like you have many guns here, but if you will erase all guns from fonline, except those 4 ones and pistols/hunting rifle, it will not almost affect the PvP and leveling up your character.

 On the other way, i disagree with instakills. Instakills is not in conform to my premise: longer fights.

 If you disagree with any of my suggestions, i would like to know why.
 
 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2010, 11:30:09 pm by Lordus »
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Crazy

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Re: Huge weapon's changes
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2010, 12:10:14 am »

Want longer fight? A really easiest idea: no more level cap, and radically raise instakills.
With 500HP, you have a longer fight. You don't need a total rework of combat system...
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Re: Huge weapon's changes
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2010, 12:40:33 am »

This is not fantasy battle beetwen knight and dragon. i don't want to watch 2 staying character's chating/shooting/healing each other for few minute's.

We have gun's, granade's and rocket's here - longer fight's will kill all dynamics/realism/f2style combat system.

All fallout is about that - one lucky shoot/burst can win fight.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2010, 12:44:11 am by Yanglegend »
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Re: Huge weapon's changes
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2010, 12:48:21 am »

trolling attempt:
increase level to 25, 7 perks maximum (no more after lvl 21)
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Lordus

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Re: Huge weapon's changes
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2010, 02:05:03 am »

Want longer fight? A really easiest idea: no more level cap, and radically raise instakills.
With 500HP, you have a longer fight. You don't need a total rework of combat system...

 This will make only bigger difference between no-lifers and normal players. Also most of Fallout weapons will be unused. Another easy idea?

 
This is not fantasy battle beetwen knight and dragon. i don't want to watch 2 staying character's chating/shooting/healing each other for few minute's.

We have gun's, granade's and rocket's here - longer fight's will kill all dynamics/realism/f2style combat system.

All fallout is about that - one lucky shoot/burst can win fight.

 If damages from weapons will be 30-40 per burst, fights will not be many minutes longer, but longer enough to get FA or stimps, you will have chance to use different guns and nades and tactics and teams with less players will not be in such disadvantage.

 I have question for you? What is funny on situation, that you die in combat and you have chance to get there back in cca 10 minutes (if you have luck, in 5 minutes). As i know, fights are not so long that you will have chance to counter strike, if you die. In Counter strike game, if you die, you will have chance to pay it back in cca 2 minutes.. and you will have the chance, because enemy will still be there. I dont know system in WoW or in similar games, but i dont think that if you are all day looking forward for PvP, and you die in first crossfire, it is balanced system and it is ok.

 And, i have to disagree, F2 combat style is not fast, it is long (turn based) and it is created for single player, not multiplayer. So there is absolutely no need to stay in this system.
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Gruik

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Re: Huge weapon's changes
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2010, 04:49:53 am »

This will make only bigger difference between no-lifers and normal players. Also most of Fallout weapons will be unused. Another easy idea?

On TLA in August there was no level cap, and everybody enjoyed the game. It was cool, we had better fights, we were more numerous, we had better gear. I know, now on 2238 it's quite different, because of quests, bigger map, crafting, TC... we got to find another solution. But... you want too more changes Lordus, it's very hard work to do and probably not the better ideas for this game. Got to find TEH way to improve the game ! But... it's long and difficult, as we all know.
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Lordus

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Re: Huge weapon's changes
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2010, 02:43:58 pm »

On TLA in August there was no level cap, and everybody enjoyed the game. It was cool, we had better fights, we were more numerous, we had better gear. I know, now on 2238 it's quite different, because of quests, bigger map, crafting, TC... we got to find another solution. But... you want too more changes Lordus, it's very hard work to do and probably not the better ideas for this game. Got to find TEH way to improve the game ! But... it's long and difficult, as we all know.

 At this moment, i have no time to spend ingame, because of my final exams. So i am looking for next era and i suggested this kind of huge changes. I hope, that combat will be more tactical. Today it is about clicking if you are biggunner, and double clicking, if you are sniper. Nothing between. As a sniper, it is better to aim eyes, because of instakills, instead of aiming to the hands and shooting weapons out of the hands or cripling. I have no time to change ammo type in my assault riffle in fight, because of enemy armors, and i have no reason to use assault riffle in fight, because it is unbalanced.

 What is the point of these fights.. Yes, i enjoyed them, but it is only (double)clicking, instead of thinking, choosing weapons because of fight condition etc.

 Imagine that possibilities, if you choose light attack commando against slower big gunner tanks. Hit and run tactic will be more useful, so bigger but unbalanced team will not have so big chance.

 Also, this will not be end of biggunners. They will still have LSW, so they can run, but if they choose minigun, they will have to make special formation and other players will have to protect them and they will start to more think.

 Boys, did you ever played i.e. Red Orchestra tank missions? If you have luck on good teamates, it is pleasure to attack enemy with tactic you choose and crush even more numerous enemy, if you use brain, your advantage and enemy disadvantage.

 But today, fonline pvp is reduced to 2 groups, enviroment is almost the same (and unlogic), so it is sad, because this game has very good combat potential.
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Alvarez

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Re: Huge weapon's changes
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2010, 02:57:05 pm »

+1 to Lordus.
Excellent ideas, but what can logic do against personal preferences of devs?
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