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[avv]

I fail to see the relevance of how these features actually regulate and protect anyone other than burden the player.

You honestly fail to see it?
Unsafe worldmap protects us from proxymercs and second window waves because they can't safely wait on wm. Idle protects us from scout & ape fastrelog combo and relog waves in general.

Meaning additional Idling timer isn't necessary to scout or do anything, to simply play the game.

It only affects pvp.

Safe world map is not responsible for anything. Your "boring" world map camping is still there, also the hesitation to enter and cheating is still present in the game. Nothing has changed in that regard, besides why players shouldn't be allowed to organize safely somewhere? That somewhere could be world map just as it was for a long time and your "issues" relevant to it simply doesn't exist.

Safe worldmap is exactly responsible for boring gameplay because it's too good place to be. You can instantly spawn in any of the grids in town without any warning and it's many times the most decisive strategic move generally in pvp. While inside, your movements are slow and easy to scout.
Players can already safely organize in their bases. Safety just comes with a price of delay when entering. It's because when you organize against someone in safety, they can't know what's coming.

World map is too comfortable, the game has something comfortable in it and it get's nerfed.

It wouldn't get nerfed if it didn't pay a role in pvp. In my opinion worldmap could be nerfed even further.

[T-888]

You honestly fail to see it?
Unsafe worldmap protects us from proxymercs and second window waves because they can't safely wait on wm. Idle protects us from scout & ape fastrelog combo and relog waves in general.

We didn't need protection against proxy mercenaries previously, because protection against them was achieved through other means making them universally flawed by how they were used in general. Even with no additional protection as such is in place, their usage seized to exist.

Waves cannot be used on proxies, that is just simply not practical. Proof for that is previous session as we didn't have such problem other than viable mercenary leaders used as air-strikes in bulk.

I already explained a simple workaround how to mitigate the threat of waves without having the need of dropping inside encounters constantly, nor having an Idling timer upon entering the game, just only when you have the same address already present in game that will disallow to drop the timer.

It only affects pvp.

That's the only thing I play for and I am not the only one, so it is safe to say that it does limit my whole ability to play the game.

How that justifies it as right, good or even efficient that it is only for PvP? The restrictions are there, but they serve no purpose.

Safe worldmap is exactly responsible for boring gameplay because it's too good place to be. You can instantly spawn in any of the grids in town without any warning and it's many times the most decisive strategic move generally in pvp. While inside, your movements are slow and easy to scout.

Forcing the player to wait out artificial restrictions doesn't fix your issue, it simply makes the player wait to play the game, nothing more. How can you not see that?

I already said it, once you wait out the Idling timer you can do just that, jump on anyone without warning. The element of surprise is there and Idling timer is just an annoyance which delays, but doesn't really solve anything.

Imagine a situation, where you do Town Control and SOT, Hawks come later, what difference makes it that SOT, Hawks will have to wait out the same amount of restricted time if both were previously prepared to enter? That means they both will be able to enter at the same time, but the element of surprise will be just there as they will be able to choose to enter when exactly they want.

If one of the teams didn't prepare prior that, then one team will be able to enter faster than the other with or without the Idling timer.

The purpose of the initial Idling timer is that you will just have to wait more on us and so as we will have to wait on you, because that timer serves no other purpose other than waste our time.

The solution is a fundamental error of logic. Wrap your head around it more tightly, you will understand.

Players can already safely organize in their bases. Safety just comes with a price of delay when entering. It's because when you organize against someone in safety, they can't know what's coming.

Just delays the ability to play for everyone.

[avv]

Forcing the player to wait out artificial restrictions doesn't fix your issue, it simply makes the player wait to play the game, nothing more. How can you not see that?

What I see is that when you're in hurry, idling timer is an issue. But you're in hurry when the enemy is in vulnerable state and it would be good time to jump on them. But in my opinion they deserve their looting time and safety against sudden third party attacks.
Idling timer won't be an issue if you're not in hurry. Teams still make it inside tc like always and you can be the first team inside any time. And if there's no backstab opportunity, the town is likely green even though there are enemies inside. The fact that people scout as bluesuits and create combat zones is another matter related to too cheap scouting and death having no penalty.

[T-888]

What I see is that when you're in hurry, idling timer is an issue. But you're in hurry when the enemy is in vulnerable state and it would be good time to jump on them.

You don't know that after the Idling timer they won't be in an vulnerable state and all that what your talking about simply doesn't apply or solve anything and it simply forces players to waste time in order of a plausibility of what might not happen in case of something.

In a hurry! The milestone of all arguments.

But in my opinion they deserve their looting time and safety against sudden third party attacks.

These sudden third party attacks happen even now, we got sand-witched some days ago when opponents entered in a good moment.

There wouldn't be any difference if they shouldn't have to wait for it, the outcome is the same and you fail to realize it.

Idling timer won't be an issue if you're not in hurry.

Teams still make it inside tc like always and you can be the first team inside any time. And if there's no backstab opportunity, the town is likely green even though there are enemies inside. The fact that people scout as bluesuits and create combat zones is another matter related to too cheap scouting and death having no penalty.

There is back-stab no matter of your precious system. Once town control is initiated it is automatically combat zone and you will be inside and you will wait on our Idling timer and I will have to wait on your if we switched places. Third teams will attack once fights starts no matter what in their decided moment upon waiting the timer out, but then why the timer is needed at all can you tell me please if it's meant to prevent it?

[avv]

You don't know that after the Idling timer they won't be in an vulnerable state and all that what your talking about simply doesn't apply or solve anything and it simply forces players to waste time in order of a plausibility of what might not happen in case of something.

Yes the situation might or might not be even more better for sudden spawning after idling timer. But when the situation is favourable, you certainly want to spawn. Timer protects the guys inside from that. And if the situation is even better after timer has ran out, you shouldn't complain.

Besides, players who plan on having pvp don't want single quick action where winner loots and leaves forever but extended fights over hours with same character. Some +2 mins when waiting for the opponent is pitiful fraction compared to all the waiting that pvp involves normally. I don't have anything against that, you can try to reason as much as you can - I understand you don't like to wait those 2 minutes when logging in, so what?

but then why the timer is needed at all can you tell me please if it's meant to prevent it?

It helps in places where players aren't tied to tc timer.

There wouldn't be any difference if they shouldn't have to wait for it, the outcome is the same and you fail to realize it.

The outcome is the same if all 3 teams have been around for a while. It's different when another team just notices what's going on and wants to jump in as third.

[T-888]

Yes the situation might or might not be even more better for sudden spawning after idling timer. But when the situation is favourable, you certainly want to spawn. Timer protects the guys inside from that. And if the situation is even better after timer has ran out, you shouldn't complain.

There's the strategy of avoiding these 3rd team attacks and playing them out the right way so they favor you, being able to predict those situations, adapt to the them and move the "chess pieces" to make the perfect outcome. There is competitive beauty to that. Some do that better than others and that is simply part of the game I don't think should be regulated as it interferes with one's ability to freely play the game.

Besides, players who plan on having pvp don't want single quick action where winner loots and leaves forever but extended fights over hours with same character. Some +2 mins when waiting for the opponent is pitiful fraction compared to all the waiting that pvp involves normally. I don't have anything against that, you can try to reason as much as you can - I understand you don't like to wait those 2 minutes when logging in, so what?

I already explained how those 2 minutes add up with time and it really doesn't matter how long it is if the timer doesn't serve any purpose.

I don't care that you go "boohoo" over getting sand-witched, so what? Why do I have to wait the Idling timer. Logic that works both ways.

It helps in places where players aren't tied to tc timer.

No it doesn't, it is no different. Rarely these area's are not combat zones upon hostiles being inside, so largely you still have to sit and waste more time for nothing.

The outcome is the same if all 3 teams have been around for a while. It's different when another team just notices what's going on and wants to jump in as third.

The outcome always is the same, even if a team is not present, they still will be on world map when they notice it and have the element of surprise despite of the outcome inside a combat zone and be safe. That's something solid here, not a speculation.

When you will understand that it delays not solves the problem. You can't base such a features relevance on plausible speculations, it just doesn't make it right as it only shows how ineffective the system is and how we would be better without the necessity to wait out additional time, because each time when your speculations don't fulfill that is when the timer didn't serve it's purpose leaving it with none at all and it always will fail your speculations. Why?

You can't know and predict how it will turn out if the second team entering wouldn't have to wait this Idling timer out, that could save them time so that third team couldn't react on it if they used that time to attack the enemy instead to wait out Idling timer. It doesn't matter that the third team has to do the same thing, it just gives the third team time to react on it.

See, you can't base the relevance of the feature on rubber stretching.

Fact is, Idling timer came and the game didn't change in that regard. We have situations with multiple teams and back-stabbing as it should be like that, just now we have to sit on WM and fap 2 minutes for nothing.

[JovankaB]

In fact idling works pretty well IMHO, there is no silly alt wave PvP anymore and you can go to a town for a few minutes without much risk of facing PvP apes who are safely camping logged off (but around on mumble etc), or some single multilog cheater with 5 PvP alts on WM. Nevertheless there is still PvP in towns, I would even say more than before, just more PvP on a smaller scale and the TC battles don't appear as so erratic skirmishes of alt swarms. Proxy users seem to be butthurt (but not butthurt enough), which is a good sign. The improvements I think we should do now is:

- prepare a huge database (a few thousands at least) of proxy IPs and ban them from logging into game.
- idling timer of people who stay in unguarded towns should drop below the value which allows you to enter CZ (right now it would be below 0 but I'm not sure if it's possible, so this threshold and upper idling timer cap could be simply increased by for example 60s) - so if you stay a minute or two in an unguarded location you can always return to a base/tent for a minute (and still return/go to another CZ without any waiting).
- add option to allow idling on WM without risk of enforced encounters at the cost of getting idling timer increase for everyone in the group and no possibility to preview location. Maybe pressing escape on WM could automatically enable this mode.

[naossano]

...Rage agains't idling...

How is it possible to prefer 3 minutes of doing nothing but watch login screen, than just being unable to fight in a very limited number of zone, for a very limited amount of time ? And, most important, thinking that it would please 200 other players ? Do you actually play the game (except in TC), or is it just trolling ?

[T-888]

there is no silly alt wave PvP anymore and ... or some single multilog cheater with 5 PvP alts on WM. Nevertheless there is still PvP in towns, I would even say more than before, just more PvP on a smaller scale and the TC battles don't appear as so erratic skirmishes of alt swarms.

Not a single doubt about that, good work I have to say.

you can go to a town for a few minutes without much risk of facing PvP apes who are safely camping logged off (but around on mumble etc)

Not good work.

- That shouldn't be regulated, because it affects one's ability to play upon entering the game itself.
- It doesn't solve anything, delaying doesn't mean they won't get jumped by organized, large groups and in the end it doesn't matter whether they wasted the time on initial Idling timer or not, the outcome is the same.
- Extra time that you have to wait until Idling timer expires gives more time for third teams to react on what is happening in the city, because that time could be used more efficiently to simply be in the game and avoid such situations by doing so. That goes for TC, NR and any public place which is hostile.

Waiting out Idling timer is not playing the game, so I don't have a single Idea why you think it is bad that players who already took their time to prepare by being in the game so that next time they wouldn't have to wait on anything.

You just say that this prevents that or this, but you are unable to tell me why it should be like that.

Here good example, my characters weren't even prepared over BH, but it doesn't matter whether I was, I simply have to wait to play the game.

Can you tell me any other game where you have to wait to play when you are inside it?

<05:01:43> "Tomowolff": guy in CA in BH
<05:01:49> "Tomowolff": nickname "Dead Apple"
<05:02:05> "Tomowolff": 191 hps, laser rifle
<05:02:27> "Tripleight": it'd be nice
<05:02:34> "Tripleight": nice to jump in and go fuck him up
<05:02:37> "Tripleight": but I don't want to
<05:02:41> "Tomowolff": idling time
<05:02:41> "Tomowolff": xD
<05:02:42> "Tripleight": because I have to wait Idling timer
<05:02:44> "Tripleight": why?
<05:02:51> "Rascal":

- prepare a huge database (a few thousands at least) of proxy IPs and ban them from logging into game.

You can't do that, it is not against the rules to use proxies, because there is some percent of players who can't play any differently and connect to the game otherwise. I think there are more usages for it.

- idling timer of people who stay in unguarded towns should drop below the value which allows you to enter CZ (right now it would be below 0 but I'm not sure if it's possible, so this threshold and upper idling timer cap could be simply increased by for example 60s) - so if you stay a minute or two in an unguarded location you can always return to a base/tent for a minute (and still return/go to another CZ without any waiting).

That's good.

This could drop down to 5 minutes or even more, actually much more, so players who actually played and were present in the game for a long time doesn't have to re-wait it and someone can go make a tea and do human things while not wasting more time after that.

- add option to allow idling on WM without risk of enforced encounters at the cost of getting idling timer increase for everyone in the group and no possibility to preview location. Maybe pressing escape on WM could automatically enable this mode.

How about safe world map without some pointless vision restrictions, players have sneakers for that inside cities or expendable bluesuits.

[JovankaB]

Here good example, my characters weren't even prepared over BH, but it doesn't matter whether I was, I simply have to wait to play the game.

I don't understand, you kind of contradict your point that idling timer doesn't change anything
in surprise attack of offline apes, because you can just login and wait a bit to attack someone.
As we can see thanks to the log, it's not really the case - you don't know if the person will be
still there after those ~3 minutes, so it's not worth the hassle if you are not playing the game.

The thing is, if you PLAY at the same time and risk gear in unsafe locations you could go to
Broken Hills and try to kill him up in matter of seconds. If you DON'T PLAY, just hang around
on your voice channels and chats with your buddies, then you can't so easily kill a player
who PLAYS and takes all the risks of being in the unsafe locations. Seems it works exactly
as intended, so thanks for letting us know.

[avv]

- Extra time that you have to wait until Idling timer expires gives more time for third teams to react on what is happening in the city, because that time could be used more efficiently to simply be in the game and avoid such situations by doing so. That goes for TC, NR and any public place which is hostile.

Works both ways. It can be beneficial or you might miss your chance.

<05:01:43> "Tomowolff": guy in CA in BH
<05:01:49> "Tomowolff": nickname "Dead Apple"
<05:02:05> "Tomowolff": 191 hps, laser rifle
<05:02:27> "Tripleight": it'd be nice
<05:02:34> "Tripleight": nice to jump in and go fuck him up
<05:02:37> "Tripleight": but I don't want to
<05:02:41> "Tomowolff": idling time
<05:02:41> "Tomowolff": xD
<05:02:42> "Tripleight": because I have to wait Idling timer
<05:02:44> "Tripleight": why?
<05:02:51> "Rascal":

But that's exactly it. You didn't scout the place so you wait the idling timer. You already got valuable information about the guy's build which means you could choose the exactly perfect match against him. That's exactly how this game isn't meant to be played in my opinion. 

[T-888]

I don't understand, you kind of contradict your point that idling timer doesn't change anything
in surprise attack of offline apes, because you can just login and wait a bit to attack someone.
As we can see thanks to the log, it's not really the case - you don't know if the person will be
still there after those ~3 minutes, so it's not worth the hassle if you are not playing the game.

The thing is, if you PLAY at the same time and risk gear in unsafe locations you could go to
Broken Hills and try to kill him up in matter of seconds. If you DON'T PLAY, just hang around
on your voice channels and chats with your buddies, then you can't so easily kill a player
who PLAYS and takes all the risks of being in the unsafe locations. Seems it works exactly
as intended, so thanks for letting us know.

Have you been even reading anything I say?

Tell me what is bad that I enter the game and I am fully capable of playing it? Can you answer that question as I've been asking it millions of times, how it makes it any right that I have to waste my time first to be able to play?

I was about to play the game, play the game for the only reason I play it, since there is no other reason for me to be inside the game, but I didn't want to because of Idling timer.

The guy most probably was looking for trouble, it is an unguarded location which is meant to be unsafe, but what's the point if some feature tries to prevent the risk? Meaning if I would be inside a city for those few minutes in order to be able to attack that guy "risking" myself, that means some feature would be protecting me from hostility while inside it and in the end I wouldn't risk anything as I'd be waiting out a meaningless restriction.

That feature is a pointless paradox. This is utter failure of basic logic.

How ignorant can you be?

But that's exactly it. You didn't scout the place so you wait the idling timer. You already got valuable information about the guy's build which means you could choose the exactly perfect match against him. That's exactly how this game isn't meant to be played in my opinion. 

I would still have to get there and organize, it would take me time just to get there if I wasn't ready for it and I wasn't, but on top of it more time is wasted.

Tell me how exactly is that not mean to be played like that, if I want to play, but it restricts me? Showing up faster and risking myself by battling him out?

This feature prevents me from risking myself, playing the game. You still don't get it?

[Eternauta]

While the old system sucked because you had to spend time levelling your PvP alts, the new system is awesome because you can type your walls of text complaining in a thread while waiting for your Idler cooldown to go down. (not 100% joke)

[T-888]

You completely don't understand what I'm talking about, this is not about some alt leveling, not even remotely close to that.

[Kilgore]

but it's still bad for my mouse-wheel which says:

omg not this thread again!!!!