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[T-888]

Bean Bag Ammo, -1 ap single shot(4), 100% KD(subject to stonewall), +100%dr

Re-invented grenades that deals no damage with less range (with heave ho, grenades have more range).

Amazing.

I think Roachers beanbag ammo is what shotguns NEED

I'd like to not express offense, but you people crack me up.

[Roachor]

Grenades dont take 1 ap, your well known stance of miniguns should win every fight because they go boom boom boom has been noted and ignored.

[Blerter]

Okay t888 you fucking know it all can you aim with grenade? no can you aim with a single shot on a shotty? yes this makes Crits coupled with the 100% KNOCKBACK (not grenades KNOCKDOWN) completely different also different AP. Thank you, come again.

[T-888]

Grenades dont take 1 ap, your well known stance of miniguns should win every fight because they go boom boom boom has been noted and ignored.

And that will make all the difference in the world ...

Understand this, just better damage or only action point reduction, or only knock-back/knockdown is not going to make the weapon viable by applying these features separately and not especially if you overbalance these factors. What does that mean?

Bean Bag Ammo, -1 ap single shot(4), 100% KD(subject to stonewall), +100%dr (make shotgun a support class for pvp, also possibly slavers.)

Compare to shotguns now, you deny any damage they had by putting something else to it, alright it is something unique, but you don't buff the shotgun that way. You trade one advantage for another, you overbalance it and it won't be any more viable than it currently is.

Combining mechanics is key in order to make the weapon unique and flexible, though it needs a buff so you don't take anything off it, not something else with the same scale of balance that currently exists.

I don't know how else to explain it.

Okay t888 you fucking know it all can you aim with grenade?

It was implemented a year ago, then I though it might change something with the usage and popularity of grenades, make them more effective, but truth is that option, respectively to hex throw them has zero impact on their efficiency.

your well known stance of miniguns should win every fight because they go boom boom boom has been noted and ignored.

I gave my best current solution to make shotguns viable, you don't have to be so biased and jump to conclusions like this one, I want the same thing as you do, but I sure see a non-viable solution what you suggested.

Besides I'm more known for trying to move mountains with ideas and words.

[Blerter]

Aim as in aim at a part of the body t888 that would be the advantage of bean bag ammo, push them back 6 or so hexes and cripple them it would be perfect as a support build.

[T-888]

Grenades actually better that you don't push them back, but lock them down and make them static vulnerable targets.

There was utterly no mention of crippling in that suggestion.

Why support? Why not a fully capable weapon? Why do you want to choose the inferior solution?

Besides you are not fully reading or understanding what I write and why that kind of solution won't change anything for shotguns. Nobody is going to implement something what will not bring any positive results.

[Blerter]

A different and viable way of using/supporting is a positive result and the bean bag suggestion and crippling with bean bag ammo would be a very fun and positively useful build.

[Disease]

+1 OP
shot for shot
http://www.google.ca/imgres?start=267&hl=en&safe=off&sa=X&tbo=d&biw=1600&bih=769&tbm=isch&tbnid=LFVz6L6UcaaRjM:&imgrefurl=http://www.thisiswhyimbroke.com/shotgun-12-gauge-shot-glass&docid=qqxkHiacB9zu8M&imgurl=http://tiwibzone.tiwib.netdna-cdn.com/images/shotgun-shot-glasses.jpg&w=300&h=250&ei=p9j9UKaWGc7migLIg4FQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=370&vpy=242&dur=416&hovh=151&hovw=181&tx=130&ty=82&sig=106530388209373957873&page=7&tbnh=151&tbnw=181&ndsp=44&ved=1t:429,r:78,s:200,i:238

[T-888]

A different and viable way of using/supporting is a positive result and the bean bag suggestion and crippling with bean bag ammo would be a very fun and positively useful build.

Okay, let us try differently, I stop explaining since you don't read anything, but now explain to me why, do you know how to even argument it? Why such a build would be viable?

I sure don't know how to defend such a build, I know how PvP goes and there is not a single chance that kind of build would be usable.

[Blerter]

Sneaker will be able to shoot- crit- knockdown opponent and return into sneak mode without having to go anywhere as if someone is knocked down you can go back into sneak mode.

[avv]

Guns that take control away from players are not good game design. Current shotgun burst is rather okay - but not tested much - because its ap cost is high. For same reason rocket launcher is good: 7 ap + reload per one knockdown.
Knockdown single shot shotgun is not good idea because the ap cost is low, meaning that you can keep someone without control for long times. The attack that reduces opponent's control on his char must never take less time or slightly less than it takes to recover from the attack.

[Roachor]

Avv that's what's known as different classes. No game is only dps class and when they all try to be only one is viable like our current situation. Shotguns should be a close range assault class not a kitten fart dispenser.

[avv]

Avv that's what's known as different classes.

Which doesn't justify the implementation of bad game design.

[Sarakin]

But in other games, you got diminishing returns and high HP pools as well, so CC isnt an issue there as here.

[T-888]

What's the big deal CC? You can make the weapon viable by not forcing it to a certain role, look how well grenades come into fights, like not at all? And they are like almost only CC based.

Balance the shotguns CC capabilities, damage, fire rate etc. etc and profit. There is place for them to do CC(knock-backs, knockdowns), do decent damage and have better than average fire rate, that all is compensated for its range.

That's it, you don't need anything else to make the weapon viable, you don't need new ammunition, you don't need to make shotgun a pure CC tool, because there is space for something more and you certainly don't need to re-invent an existing weapon to some type of new grenades.