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Author Topic: PvP loot to the not so deserving  (Read 10953 times)

Wichura

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Re: PvP loot to the not so deserving
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2012, 11:46:54 am »

killy the good teenrager
Here, I fixed.
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avv

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Re: PvP loot to the not so deserving
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2012, 12:24:29 pm »

Grim you just said a ton of stuff that simply isn't true or has nothing to do with the subject. You're basically derailing your own thread  :-\
I'm trying to make a point: if fastrelogs are disabled, the first team inside is always at disadvantage because they can be scouted but the team on worldmap can hide its numbers and builds. How will you fix that?
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Cyber Jesus

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Re: PvP loot to the not so deserving
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2012, 12:27:03 pm »

Yeah I can't count how many times I killed players in reno and when I went to wm to relog to my looter all the shit was gone.FR forces me to use duallog in pvp so seriously nerf it.
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DeputyDope

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Re: PvP loot to the not so deserving
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2012, 12:31:04 pm »

Yeah I can't count how many times I killed players in reno and when I went to wm to relog to my looter all the shit was gone.FR forces me to use duallog in pvp so seriously nerf it.

and this problem WILL be fixed if people could be allowed to get carry weight-related support perks.

or a new drug that increases your carry weight temporarily by X kilograms.

or being able to loot over max carry weight with "overweight" status. ( i suggested this already)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 12:34:31 pm by DeputyDope »
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Re: PvP loot to the not so deserving
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2012, 12:54:29 pm »

omfg the biggest forum drama queen dead millionaire/h4x0r GR1M strikes back on his another forum alt.
Re: PvP loot to the not so deserving
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2012, 02:15:19 pm »

I'm trying to make a point: if fastrelogs are disabled, the first team inside is always at disadvantage because they can be scouted but the team on worldmap can hide its numbers and builds. How will you fix that?

The attacking team doesn't always have the element of surprise, even if they mostly have, there is nothing wrong with that. You don't need to fix something witch is based purely on the strategy of either the defending or attacking team players. There are ways how to hide numbers inside city, also prevent scouting and surprise the opposing faction. The problem is you think linear, there is disadvantage or there is proper strategy, it's a disadvantage for those who haven't thought about it. Predict the unpredictable and make the best out of the worst situation, it's all about the right know-how.
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avv

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Re: PvP loot to the not so deserving
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2012, 03:03:03 pm »

The attacking team doesn't always have the element of surprise, even if they mostly have, there is nothing wrong with that.

What are you talking about nothing wrong about it? Of course there is: it encourages players not to enter first. And what's more, team that has been inside for 20 mins already is less alert than assailants with sharp minds. They have only 10 mins of drugs left too.

The initiator needs to be compensated somehow.

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You don't need to fix something witch is based purely on the strategy of either the defending or attacking team players. There are ways how to hide numbers inside city, also prevent scouting and surprise the opposing faction. The problem is you think linear, there is disadvantage or there is proper strategy, it's a disadvantage for those who haven't thought about it. Predict the unpredictable and make the best out of the worst situation, it's all about the right know-how.

I know these plans, like keeping players on worldmap. But for example hiding actual players inside the map is only possible if they log off and wait themselves to disappear and that's just stupid, who wants to play like that? Otherwise enemy sneaks will just rummage through the entire map, looking for additional troops. If the enemy suspects a trap, it won't even show up. If the grids are too guarded, again nobody will show up. At some point teams need to show some acts of pure goodwill to encourage enemies to even appear. Good example is giving room to enter from second street in NR commercial.
It's not just what you can do, but how reasonable it is in terms of good gameplay. The reason players even go inside unsafe zones is that they want to have fun even at the risk of putting themselves in disadvantageous position in terms of strategy.
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Re: PvP loot to the not so deserving
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2012, 03:47:55 pm »

What are you talking about nothing wrong about it? Of course there is: it encourages players not to enter first. And what's more, team that has been inside for 20 mins already is less alert than assailants with sharp minds. They have only 10 mins of drugs left too.

The initiator needs to be compensated somehow.

Simply put, there is nothing wrong about. Let me elaborate.

The defending team witch is in town in theory had infinitive amount of time to prepare, go through various scenarios, possibilities of how defend, though the attacking team needs time to react and get there, also prepare a strategy depending on evaluation of the situation, enemy position, composition and variables like third team. That time period is a lot less for the initiators, counting in speech characters it's much less in practice most of time of what you are presenting me.

So, it's perfectly balanced and purely strategy based, that is why it isn't a problem, the initiators are compensated well enough, just be aware of it. That because the defenders are exposed doesn't mean it's an automatic disadvantage, there is a saying that the best defense is an offense. In practice the attacking team most of the time is attacked and exposed to something they didn't expect, didn't predict, weren't prepared enough, wasn't enough time and in many cases when there isn't enough time the potential attackers switch places, wait out the Town Control timer and start their own. If they couldn't be fast enough it's the drawback of being forced to defend. It's harder, but that is when skill comes into to play, if prepared well enough it is easier to defend than attack in many cases. Just like Broken Hills is very hard to attack and very easy to defend (depends on whether there is enough of know-how), map of course takes a factor in all of it, some maps are more suited for offense like Modoc.

I know these plans, like keeping players on worldmap. But for example hiding actual players inside the map is only possible if they log off and wait themselves to disappear and that's just stupid, who wants to play like that?

I'm not here to teach you how to play, but it seems you aren't thinking wide enough. No offense, but there is much more than that possible.

Otherwise enemy sneaks will just rummage through the entire map, looking for additional troops. If the enemy suspects a trap, it won't even show up. If the grids are too guarded, again nobody will show up. At some point teams need to show some acts of pure goodwill to encourage enemies to even appear. Good example is giving room to enter from second street in NR commercial.

Undeniably false logic, at first you were talking about defenders being with the most disadvantage, now your giving an example of a strategically inflexible map and saying the defenders should allow a tactical error to occur. Giving an window of opportunity just because of poorly designed environment is quite dumb. That is why you don't see Soldiers of Thunderstorm all too often in NR, we gather many players easily, can cover all grids with sneakers, have very much mercenaries and in the end nobody is going to attack and the whole event becoming pointless at first to even begin preparing for something like that.

If we suspect a trap, it's just a matter of evaluation if it's possible to overcome it, outplay it. It hardly ever isn't possible, if it isn't it usually is because of low numbers at some late hours or something.

It's not just what you can do, but how reasonable it is in terms of good gameplay. The reason players even go inside unsafe zones is that they want to have fun even at the risk of putting themselves in disadvantageous position in terms of strategy.

I don't see how this is relevant to the point of why we started to even discuss something, but you said at first that the defenders are the ones who would be with the most disadvantage and that the initiators need to be compensated?

Huh? Okay, whatever you say.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 03:56:17 pm by T-888 »
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avv

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Re: PvP loot to the not so deserving
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2012, 04:16:54 pm »

Simply put, there is nothing wrong about. Let me elaborate.

The defending team witch is in town in theory had infinitive amount of time to prepare

This applies only with fast relogs. Without them you can't prepare much without cheating. You got your character, a placement and gear for it and that's it. What else is a base in spawn square with gear and cars. That's how it was in last session.

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I'm not here to teach you how to play, but it seems you aren't thinking wide enough. No offense, but there is much more than that possible.

If you want to hide numbers, either you put them on worldmap, log them off or hide them in some pocket of map, where enemy sneaks will try to dig them out. Can't think of any other realistic way to do it.

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Undeniably false logic, at first you were talking about defenders being with the most disadvantage, now your giving an example of a strategically inflexible map and saying the defenders should allow a tactical error to occur.

The thing is: if the defenders secure grids, nobody will come - in a situation where fast relogs won't work especially.

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we gather many players easily, can cover all grids with sneakers,

That always puzzled me: how can a team afford like 3 bluesuits to run around or stand afk-style when their team is in the midst of decisive battle?

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I don't see how this is relevant to the point of why we started to even discuss something, but you said at first that the defenders are the ones who would be with the most disadvantage and that the initiators need to be compensated?

Defenders = initiators because they are first team in, something to encourage other team to enter too.
Only thing that I agree here is that gameplay-wise there is no reason at all to stand in new reno compared to tc, because there's no tc locker in reno. So in the end, nobody should ever complain about reno pvp because there was no reason to enter there in first place. Fun isn't something that can be measured.
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Re: PvP loot to the not so deserving
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2012, 04:37:55 pm »

This applies only with fast relogs. Without them you can't prepare much without cheating. You got your character, a placement and gear for it and that's it. What else is a base in spawn square with gear and cars. That's how it was in last session.

It's better to attack as soon as possible so other teams don't have so much time, this applies to any situation of FR or not.

If you want to hide numbers, either you put them on worldmap, log them off or hide them in some pocket of map, where enemy sneaks will try to dig them out. Can't think of any other realistic way to do it.

Doesn't have to be some pocket of map and doesn't have to be logged off actually or on WM, not here to teach someone to play.(not that I think you don't know how to play, just because it's very simple answer, sooner or later you'll see :) )

The thing is: if the defenders secure grids, nobody will come - in a situation where fast relogs won't work especially.

If the map is poorly designed of course, but most of the maps are made quite well to allow flexible situations.

That always puzzled me: how can a team afford like 3 bluesuits to run around or stand afk-style when their team is in the midst of decisive battle?

Multitasking, as I said I didn't came here to give you tips, but there is good reason why a team affords something like that and can afford even without FR.

You of all players should understand it, as you tend to play on sneakers a lot.

Defenders = initiators because they are first team in, something to encourage other team to enter too.
Only thing that I agree here is that gameplay-wise there is no reason at all to stand in new reno compared to tc, because there's no tc locker in reno. So in the end, nobody should ever complain about reno pvp because there was no reason to enter there in first place. Fun isn't something that can be measured.

Initiators = attackers, because they start the fight, they attack. Two ways how to look at it.:)

Good map design allows players to have opportunities, the encouragement is that it is possible and it is going to be fun. Reward is loot, good fight etc. etc.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 04:56:03 pm by T-888 »
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avv

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Re: PvP loot to the not so deserving
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2012, 04:53:31 pm »

Doesn't have to be some pocket of map and doesn't have to be logged off actually or on WM, not here to teach someone to play.

If you refuse to explain yourself I will just interpret that you're a wizard.

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If the map is poorly designed of course, but most of the maps are made quite well to allow flexible situations.

Flexible: more spawns. More spawns mean more assigned sneakers. A team that doesn't dual log can't afford many meaning that some spawns are left unguarded, meaning that attackers do have quite a nice advantage.

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Multitasking, as I said I didn't came here to give you tips, but there is good reason why a team affords something like that and can afford even without FR.

Multitasking? Care to explain?
If you have a bluesuit sneak in your team there's 2 explanations: you have one less trooper or you perform a dual log in pvp, which is cheating.

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Initiators = attackers, because they start the fight, they attack. :)

[nitpick]no the defenders are initiators because without them there would be nobody to attack[/nitpick]

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Re: PvP loot to the not so deserving
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2012, 05:08:32 pm »

If you refuse to explain yourself I will just interpret that you're a wizard.

Exactly, magic happens. Unless your running around with motion sensor. :)

Flexible: more spawns. More spawns mean more assigned sneakers. A team that doesn't dual log can't afford many meaning that some spawns are left unguarded, meaning that attackers do have quite a nice advantage.

More spawns and more sneakers means it's a lot harder to cover them, all it takes is to clear one of the spawns, lose sight on one of them and it is enough, rest of spawns at the moment could work against third teams as your called "initiators" will know about them and might work in advantage to you as they might start to fight, know situation. :)

Ofcourse those who have grids covered with sneakers have the advantage, but sometimes it's enough to place a sniper or two from possible directions of witch you can get attacked and therefore react fast enough, if you don't have enough sneakers or just don't have them. SoT is SoT, but sometimes we don't have eyes too, just don't have players who provide them, we know how it is to play blind, it's a disadvantage, but nothing game-breaking actually. :)

Just don't fap during all that is key point to remember. ;D

Multitasking? Care to explain?
If you have a bluesuit sneak in your team there's 2 explanations: you have one less trooper or you perform a dual log in pvp, which is cheating.

Multitask if dual log and one or two trooper less, yes. Both, don't call that cheating, it's just an excuse for players who constantly fail at the game. ;D

[nitpick]no the defenders are initiators because without them there would be nobody to attack[/nitpick]

No because is defenders the because attack are the initiators.

Yes, it makes sense, i know.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 05:19:40 pm by T-888 »
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avv

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Re: PvP loot to the not so deserving
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2012, 05:23:58 pm »

Multitask if dual log and one or two trooper less, yes. Both, don't call that cheating, it's just an excuse for players who constantly fail at the game. ;D

Doesn't matter what you call it. It's comparable to aimbot in fps game. So if you use aimbot and call others failures, it kind of makes you disqualified to talk about aim-related matters. With same logic it makes you disqualified to talk about scouting if you expect everyone else to use dual log scouts too. Or expect that some feature is fine because you yourself can overcome it with dual log.
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Re: PvP loot to the not so deserving
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2012, 05:30:05 pm »

Until there is anything to prevent that, who the hell cares? Those who want to find a reason not to use dual log and call it cheating and justify the lack of usage by that particular individual, because it against the rules, oh well fuck that, have fun and enjoy the game as it is. It's not made to prevent "cheating." The game doesn't work that way, you can declare all kind of rules writing smart things on forum, if there isn't anything that enforces the rules, it just doesn't have any power.

Current rules, aren't even described properly on the forum. It's just some guy who has a friend saying that a friend heard a developer saying it's against the rules.

Not to mention FR witch provides very similar advantages as dual log, and now players who constantly use FR say that dual logging is cheating, well fuck double-standards.

Guy comes to forum, not going to say witch guy, whines that usage of mercenaries is retarded and stupid and bashes other factions for cheating, because of dual logging, but he fails to realize he can do it with FR and if he does it, it supposed to make him better in some way?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2012, 05:40:16 pm by T-888 »
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avv

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Re: PvP loot to the not so deserving
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2012, 05:46:40 pm »

Quote
It's not made to prevent "cheating." The game doesn't work that way, you can declare all kind of rules writing smart things on forum, if there isn't anything that enforces the rules, it just doesn't have any power.

I'm not some fan of goodwill or fair play either but think of it like this: If something is declared illegal by the authorities and you still do it, it basically means you're choosing to step on the toes of gm. Gms are pretty nasty foes, they can delete items, bases, permaban characters and their methods can't be resisted or complained of. You chose to mess with them.
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