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[avv]

Currently it's only about the players mindset.

Like what mechanics, those witch don't exist?

Random wastelander might carry stuff in his inventory, he might be a scout, a looter, a troll, he might have a gun or a bomb, he might delay your turn-based action with idleness, block doorways, buy stuff from merchants you want. There's dozens of bad things he can instantly do to you but hardly anything beneficial.

[Brujah]

Uh no avv... I leave encs without violence because I want to.


It's all about player's mindset.

[avv]

Uh no avv... I leave encs without violence because I want to.


It's all about player's mindset.

So you deny the list of bad things a stranger can inflict on you are false?

[T-888]

Random wastelander might carry stuff in his inventory, he might be a scout, a looter, a troll, he might have a gun or a bomb, he might delay your turn-based action with idleness, block doorways, buy stuff from merchants you want. There's dozens of bad things he can instantly do to you but hardly anything beneficial.

Mindset is not some profit or something you can hold in your hand, a player behind the screen is not a wooden plank, he thinks, makes choices, decisions and with all that accounted for a certain mindset exists and is developed as the player experiences more of the game. Some players just like to socialize because of certain principles of what is acceptable and enjoyable for them, might be a scout or not, it's the players mindset witch will allow to not pull the trigger and inquire rather with words than bullets, after that talking with a corpse on the ground might not be fun for them as it might spoil immersion or something.

[Gruik]

But I never said the game should be like it is. Personally I've always been against minmaxing and hours of grinding to be able to do something.

Okay, so we are clear Didn't notice you were, as me, just talking about reality of the game instead of wanted it to continue.

Currently it's only about the players mindset.

Like what mechanics, those witch don't exist?

He's got a point, aswell as Kinkin's first post about lack of these mechanics. Yes it's about players mindset for now, but as avv said in his last post, "we" (aka old players) learnt to play this way, never trusting people, shooting then asking, and so on, because it was the only way to play correctly. And this is a problem for good-intended people we see in-game, they just think that the server is made only for big teams, and that every member from one of these teams is just a troll who enjoys blasting every bluesuit.

[Brujah]

So you deny the list of bad things a stranger can inflict on you are false?

That also depends on the stranger's mindset.

[avv]

That also depends on the stranger's mindset.

Basically same what t888 said.

Mindset is not some profit or something you can hold in your hand, a player behind the screen is not a wooden plank, he thinks, makes choices, decisions and with all that accounted for a certain mindset exists and is developed as the player experiences more of the game. Some players just like to socialize because of certain principles of what is acceptable and enjoyable for them, might be a scout or not, it's the players mindset witch will allow to not pull the trigger and inquire rather with words than bullets, after that talking with a corpse on the ground might not be fun for them as it might spoil immersion or something.

So in other words, the mindset of other players is something you can't control. Since the chance that random player will lead you to his base and hand out free stuff is less likely than the occasion that he might do something harmful, it's best to act against the possibility that the player is harmful.

It's undeniable truth that if you are on unknown alt and meet a weaker character it's more profitable to kill him than socialize with him. It's not profitable to be nice. I keep munching about this profit, but we must observe the game by means of raw data, not some roleplay mumbo jumbo that everyone has diferend ideas about.

[Pacifism]

Basically same what t888 said.

So in other words, the mindset of other players is something you can't control. Since the chance that random player will lead you to his base and hand out free stuff is less likely than the occasion that he might do something harmful, it's best to act against the possibility that the player is harmful.

It's undeniable truth that if you are on unknown alt and meet a weaker character it's more profitable to kill him than socialize with him. It's not profitable to be nice. I keep munching about this profit, but we must observe the game by means of raw data, not some roleplay mumbo jumbo that everyone has diferend ideas about.

Can we all agree that different people do things there way? Some like to blast every bluesuit on the off chance he/she has 10 caps (Probably not worth the bullets/Cells/Rockets you wasted) and some like to help out said bluesuits. Its hard to attract people to a game where everytime they get up someone knocks them down and says "Wastelands Harsh, get used to it Noob" but if you like wasting people out of caution, griefing or strictly business go ahead. If you like helping people out go ahead.
There is no point in trying to tell eachother the "Right Way" over the forums. No ones gonna budge from there position of course.

[Gruik]

Can we all agree that different people do things there way? Some like to blast every bluesuit on the off chance he/she has 10 caps (Probably not worth the bullets/Cells/Rockets you wasted) and some like to help out said bluesuits. Its hard to attract people to a game where everytime they get up someone knocks them down and says "Wastelands Harsh, get used to it Noob" but if you like wasting people out of caution, griefing or strictly business go ahead. If you like helping people out go ahead.
There is no point in trying to tell eachother the "Right Way" over the forums. No ones gonna budge from there position of course.

Pretty much what I wanted to say from beginning, but through conversation it seems like you didn't point out that avv is not talking about "the right way to play", but the way we are forced to play / get used to play by experience. This last point about experience is determinant, this mindset we all talk about.

Here a concrete example : long time ago, the big french team know as The Cajuns (or "The Charlemagnes", depending on which session we're talking about) tried to set up many ways to help noobs, welcoming them, giving them stuff, trusting them and encouraging them to play with us. The result was a betrayal from a dissident french group, and our first base rape. From then we became only PK's for a while, there was problems everyday with our allies (principally VSB and Red Dots), and so much rage with our ennemies.

From the moment you allow players to kill each others anytime anywhere, trust is a very relative concept.

It's undeniable truth that if you are on unknown alt and meet a weaker character it's more profitable to kill him than socialize with him. It's not profitable to be nice. I keep munching about this profit, but we must observe the game by means of raw data, not some roleplay mumbo jumbo that everyone has diferend ideas about.

You're wrong on your way of thinking, it's profitable to be nice. Just, for example, in order to get allies and set up a little group who have its chances of survival. The problem is that there is no way to make these alliances in-game, we have to make everything from outside ; forums, IRC, whatever... In all others MMOs, making guilds/alliances/groups is principally doable in-game, where out-game is more for feedbacking/organizing a bit more. Something between namecolorizing and visible reputation on player's skins/HUD is what we need, because the principle of "faction" in FOnline is quite relative since ever.

[avv]

You're wrong on your way of thinking, it's profitable to be nice. Just, for example, in order to get allies and set up a little group who have its chances of survival. The problem is that there is no way to make these alliances in-game, we have to make everything from outside ; forums, IRC, whatever... In all others MMOs, making guilds/alliances/groups is principally doable in-game, where out-game is more for feedbacking/organizing a bit more. Something between namecolorizing and visible reputation on player's skins/HUD is what we need, because the principle of "faction" in FOnline is quite relative since ever.

It's not as profitable to be nice as it is to be mean.

[T-888]

Profit can't be seen as the only value that drives player interaction and associative actions, it's just not like that. Players do Town Control not because it is profitable and compete just for the sense of sport, to be competitive, it all included boils down to the mindset of players.

Certain behavior is of course more predictable when more factors are involved, like full loot, it all comes in hand with the wasteland theme making new players paranoid to loose gear, some player groups hostile and those witch are against hostility and tend to socialize, that pointed out it encourages the player to make certain decisions on how they want to play the game. Game mechanics can encourage something, but will not make a decision for you or tell you how the game should be played, it is up to the player and each player is an individual and that can make each action in some sort of way unique. Player can kill for different reasons as well be nice, right?

Talking about profit, let's say some sort of system actually is implemented in TC that let non-faction players do trading, mining, basically all possible activities gaining some sort of benefit for the faction that holds the town, that benefit of course will be in game profit - items. To some extent it all really works, but when a gang will have enough equipment and stuff, do you think they still will be nice? The "encouragement" is always there, but it in the end it is up to the gang how to choose to run the city, some will just not care about the benefit, since you can always kill someone for the stuff, not gain artificial bonuses from magic box.

Mindset is what you are, not what mechanics tell you to be.

[avv]

Profit can't be seen as the only value that drives player interaction and associative actions, it's just not like that. Players do Town Control not because it is profitable and compete just for the sense of sport, to be competitive, it all included boils down to the mindset of players

I'm talking about instances where you meet single players in unsafe areas, not about tc and gangs. You can't deny that when meeting a random wastelander there's a higher risk that he does something harmful than good inside the meeting instance.

Talking about profit, let's say some sort of system actually is implemented in TC that let non-faction players do trading, mining, basically all possible activities gaining some sort of benefit for the faction that holds the town, that benefit of course will be in game profit - items. To some extent it all really works, but when a gang will have enough equipment and stuff, do you think they still will be nice? The "encouragement" is always there, but it in the end it is up to the gang how to choose to run the city, some will just not care about the benefit, since you can always kill someone for the stuff, not gain artificial bonuses from magic box.

Mindset is what you are, not what mechanics tell you to be.

So far no matter how much stuff even big gang members have, they always loot their victims. If they just wanted to kill them out of spite, they would leave the stuff.

Besides if the players have so much stuff that they no longer care about it, it's about lacking mechanics that should keep players on their toes all the time. For example trading and taking care of good customers is basically non-existent in this game, you can get everything yourself and then do whatever you want.

[T-888]

I'm talking about instances where you meet single players in unsafe areas, not about tc and gangs. You can't deny that when meeting a random wastelander there's a higher risk that he does something harmful than good inside the meeting instance.

Yeah and so? I am talking about the reasons behind it, why do you keep focusing on some certain scenario anway? It's meant to be like that, mechanics encourage the risk, but it doesn't mean everyone will follow it as a code and try to minimize the threat by killing everyone they meet.

[avv]

Yeah and so? I am talking about the reasons behind it, why do you keep focusing on some certain scenario anway? It's meant to be like that, mechanics encourage the risk, but it doesn't mean everyone will follow it as a code and try to minimize the threat by killing everyone they meet.

Because that some dude many posts upwards was telling everyone was so mean to him and blamed the players for it. I wanted to point out that players can't be blamed for what mechanics tell them to do. But even though mechanics tell something, players don't have to listen like you said. So nothing to it.

[Gruik]

It's really hard to find out what behavior should be the majority in FOnline, we see it very well reading at our differents opinions. Mechanics aren't sufficient today to decide on that, that's why it's about mindset for now, as already said. I looked a bit about The War Z, which has free-pk feature like FOnline, and today they're having exactly the same problem as we have since the beginning.

I'm talking about instances where you meet single players in unsafe areas, not about tc and gangs. You can't deny that when meeting a random wastelander there's a higher risk that he does something harmful than good inside the meeting instance.

I can't really reply to that now, as I didn't play enough lasts sessions for my argument to be still valid. Tell me if my following point is still true or not.
Back in the days, in this case of instance, I firstly tried to socialize (aka say "Hello") to see how the player would react. From here, 4 possibilities : he ran away, he replied back and a conversation starts, he replied back and shoots first, or he just shot (before or after my "Hello", but that's irrelevant). Why did I do that ? Because I knew very well my character by experience, as I played mainly with the same one, Awareness didn't shown HP/gear when passing mouse over someone (I was always in combat leather jacket when not TCing btw), and I knew that majority of players couldn't build a good char. So in the case that he shot me, I killed him 99% of the time... So I pretty much never taken any risks by trying to socialize, I don't say it didn't happen, but it was so tiny, and the results of a successfull socialization were 10 times better than a stupid butchery.

All that boring story to say, well experienced players should be an example, you don't have anything to loose of you're on a good team, it's all about ego...

So far no matter how much stuff even big gang members have, they always loot their victims. If they just wanted to kill them out of spite, they would leave the stuff.

Hmm it's true, and it's a really interesting point to analyze. Why taking the stuff when you don't need it ? I would like to know if majority of players come back directly where they died or don't because they don't want to be chainkilled by a dude who camps his loot, I think this would be really relevant.

Besides if the players have so much stuff that they no longer care about it, it's about lacking mechanics that should keep players on their toes all the time. For example trading and taking care of good customers is basically non-existent in this game, you can get everything yourself and then do whatever you want.

100% of agreement, economy plays a BIG role in all these problems.