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[avv]

Now that jet reduces armor-related dr like in last session and many people have to rebuild their characters, it's time to discuss drugs in general.

Basically here's the deal with drugs: if you use jet, you need to use psycho, nuka, cigs and buffout aswell. Why? This is why:

1. Buffout to overcome the jet's -2 str
2. Nuka to overcome buffout's -1agi
3. Psycho to overcome jet's -15dr
4. Cigs to help against psycho's -2pe

The result of the mass use of following narcotics is to receive 2 additional action points.

Only snipers, sneaks and some sort of pure tanks differ from this pattern.
Is this honestly the way drugs should work?

[Slick]

Actully it doesn't cancel bonuses to armor just cancels any toughness you have, you are only fucked if you use jet with blue suit or crappy farmed armor.

[Crazy]

Actully it doesn't cancel bonuses to armor just cancels any toughness you have, you are only fucked if you use jet with blue suit or crappy farmed armor.

- Jet and Kamikaze decrease Damage Resistance properly.

I agree that drugs system ain't perfect. Maybe remove malus from drugs? (and maybe limit the number of drugs one can take at the same time, but I would rather not. I was pretty happy when you could take all drugs 2 times with only benefits, only thing that sucked was the 10min up and awful down).

[John Porno]

if anything we shoulda dd more drugs for more variety

[Michaelh139]

Nope.

I mean.

Right now, it's like, if you take one drug, you take em all.

Your just taking other drugs to cancel out other negative affects...  Caused by other drugs...

Thing is, drugs should have short term positive effects and long-term negative.  It's how they were originally designed.

But in this system, they have short term positive AND negative affects, and long-term negative affects 'addiction' which isn't even that big a deal since you can just pop another pill.

We need to throw away the short term negatives, I think, and implement a real, long term negative effect.  I am not sure what that should be.

It could range from having some spin-out.  Say you are addicted to, buffout.  You wait till the addiction wears off.  The consequence of having this addiction aside from the -1 AP while addicted without your fix, could perhaps, drop a random amount of levels.  say on  scale of 1-5 levels.

level 24, addict to buffout.  Buffout addict wears off.  loses 3 levels.

back to level 21 and the stats that were apparent at that time.

You know.. something.

[chocolate_chip_cookies]

Well I think the purpose of drugs was to have positive and negative effects just like starting traits have.
You're not supposed to cancel out the negative effects unless you want to use all those drugs

[HertogJan]

No short term negative effects.
Addiction should be affected by chem reliant and chem resistant traits and should simply be opposite of the benefits.
+2 ST for buffout would mean -2 ST during addiction. The same for all other drugs.
These effects should be ignored as far as getting a new level is concerned as that should work as it normally does, based upon a dope an booze free character.

[avv]

Right now, it's like, if you take one drug, you take em all.

Your just taking other drugs to cancel out other negative affects...  Caused by other drugs...

And that's what we best get rid off.

Thing is, drugs should have short term positive effects and long-term negative.  It's how they were originally designed.

But why have long term negative effect? The negative effect is that they need to be farmed. Who cares that they are drugs and drugs are bad mkkay and so on. They are just gear in the end. Wearing a combat armor doesn't give any negative effects either.

Better would be that drugs have no downsides, but you can't coctail them so much.
We could have soft and hard drugs. Soft drugs can be coctailed, hard drugs not.

Hard drugs could be psycho, buffout and jet.
Rest are soft drugs.
Drugs would have no addictions.
Taking another hard drug will cancel and replace the effect of the latter.
Jet has -15 dr vs normal and -10 vs others. +2 aps
Psycho has +15 normal dr and +10 to other drs, max sight set to 35 which can't be exceeded.
Buffout: +2 to str and end. -10 to crit tables vs you. -1 ap.
Now we have options instead of obvious.

Why keep soft drugs as they are? Because they put some price to your life. Meaning that a guy who paid for his drugs is better than drugless bluesuit troll.

[Crazy]

Why having downside to drugs if they can't be cocktailed anyway? Just a choice between bonuses sounds good enough.

[Michaelh139]

But why have long term negative effect? The negative effect is that they need to be farmed. Who cares that they are drugs and drugs are bad mkkay and so on. They are just gear in the end. Wearing a combat armor doesn't give any negative effects either.

If it improves gameplay I don't really care to be honest, I just figured most would try and follow the trend.

Better would be that drugs have no downsides, but you can't coctail them so much.
We could have soft and hard drugs. Soft drugs can be coctailed, hard drugs not.

Hard drugs could be psycho, buffout and jet.
Rest are soft drugs.
Drugs would have no addictions.
Taking another hard drug will cancel and replace the effect of the latter.
Jet has -15 dr vs normal and -10 vs others. +2 aps
Psycho has +15 normal dr and +10 to other drs, max sight set to 35 which can't be exceeded.
Buffout: +2 to str and end. -10 to crit tables vs you. -1 ap.
Now we have options instead of obvious.

Why keep soft drugs as they are? Because they put some price to your life. Meaning that a guy who paid for his drugs is better than drugless bluesuit troll.

You mean previous.  The previous drug is cancelled out.

I take jet, then I take buffout.  Jet taken off, buffout added.  Right?

And what is this vs. -1 ap +2ap thing?  What is it vs others and you? 

[T-888]

I'd just add some overdose effect, maximum of like 3 drugs at a time. That should be a step forward, remaking all builds etc. whatever, don't care, it's better and so on.

[Wind_Drift]

I like the idea of having no immediate negative effects with drugs.  The idea that the downside doesn't kick in until the drug wears off would work only if you couldn't take the drug again to overcome the addiction, but had to wait for the addiction to run it's course before the drug could be ingested again.  Duration of positive and negative effects would be extended or shortened by Chem Reliant/Chem Resistant, as well as Fast Metabolism. 

As an example of what I'm talking about, look at Jet.  This example assumes Jet has been changed to only give 2 AP, without the ST malus or CH malus. 

You take a dose of Jet, and gain 2 AP for the normal duration (30 minutes?).  After 30 minutes, the drug wears off and you suffer -2 AP from your base AP for another 30 minutes, and taking more Jet has no effect at all.  Using Chem reliant, you could get double the duration of the positive  and negative effects (60 minutes), while Chem Resistant would cut both positive effect and addiction in half (15 minutes).  In addition, Fast Metabolism could maybe shorten the length of the withdrawal effect.  This would probably make Chem Reliant and Fast Metabolism "needed" traits, so maybe another solution could be found there.

The same could go for Psycho and Buffout.  Psycho gives +15% DR, but the withdrawal effect is -15% DR (affecting armor as well).  Buffout is +2 ST, withdrawal effect being -2 ST, etc.

Drugs like Nuka and Cigs don't need as severe penalties, as they don't give as much positive benefit.  Maybe a small chance of addiction, with -1 AP.

With fast relog, it may not make much difference to have severe penalties for drug use.  You would still be able to cocktail drugs for PvP, but you would suffer extremely severe penalties afterwards.  I know most people would just relog to another alt, so this suggestion probably doesn't mean much.

The other types of drugs are things like Rad Away, Rad-X, and Stimpaks.  Since these don't boost stats, I see no reason to worry about them so much, but I do want to add my opinion on Super Stims.

The -9 HP from Super Stimpaks really doesn't do much except kill you after respawn if you've used a few of them recently.  I would suggest removing the debuff effect upon death.  It's not as much of a problem now with the added healing rate and 40 HP boost, but I see no reason for it.  It won't do anything but cause unnecessary headaches for players.

Obviously, a lot of room to work with.  It's all up for debate as far as I'm concerned.

[Slick]

Well one that is nice is you get to see your current damage resist, with whatever armor is wearing and what see you have total after using jet, in the character menu. But yup time to make new builds adjust to new changes....

[Crazy]

You take a dose of Jet, and gain 2 AP for the normal duration (30 minutes?).  After 30 minutes, the drug wears off and you suffer -2 AP from your base AP for another 30 minutes, and taking more Jet has no effect at all.

What about no? The previous drug system had only one big flaw, and that's almost exactly what you're describing.

[Wind_Drift]

What about no? The previous drug system had only one big flaw, and that's almost exactly what you're describing.

Opinions differ, obviously.  For instance, I think this is ridiculous:

I agree that drugs system ain't perfect. Maybe remove malus from drugs? (and maybe limit the number of drugs one can take at the same time, but I would rather not. I was pretty happy when you could take all drugs 2 times with only benefits, only thing that sucked was the 10min up and awful down).

To me it sounds like you would prefer no downside, at all.  If so, that's fair, it's your opinion, and that's fine.

I just personally disagree.

Almost everything else in this game has a trade off, I personally believe drugs should be the same way.  I'm completely open to suggestions, I just don't like the idea of only benefits, and no drawbacks whatsoever.

YMMV