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[Gaizk]

So anyone not using a 10 PE Hawk eye character or spamming the motion sensor is like swimming on a shark infested ocean, just waiting for one to take a bite at you and you wont even know it. And the worst part... It only takes 1 bite.

Oh and was johnny pointed it out, add the fact all you need is entry gear to pull it out... TC Influence will be about controlling a ghost town.

[Kelin]

C'mon, it is only a bluesuit, once desneaked it can be killed easily. The idea of a silent assassin is quite nice. So far I got killed only with rockets or lasers but guess what, not a single death caused by a sneaker having this silent death perk. Even in towns like NCR, Hub and others I am more afraid of regular sg bursters with 3x brd which is (for your trader alt) instakill, from one-hex obviously.

In pre-wipe I couldn't kill anything with my sg sneak except other sneakers. I couldn't even kill a damn sniper with 144 hp in a BA. I highly doubt this perk will allow you to kill double toughness psycho guy with 250hp+ so I see no point in deleting/nerfing this perk. Also, many builds will become useless if devs decide to change this perk.

[Solar]

10mm SMG is not entry level gear, by the way.

Having one person in a group with 10 Pe + SS, or one person with a motion sensor guarding, or even just going in a small group. These things stop one person ambushing you.

[Johnnybravo]

But this by no way make perk useful enough for anything that can't burst, be it knife or pistol if anything.

[Gaizk]

Ok counter case scenario, Your little group with both hawk men and sensor guy suddenly gets hit by a rocket, now theres another group ready to fight and people scramble to look out for the agressors, I think hawk men will have enough on his hands by looking out for the agressors and sensor boy will be busy bursting a nearby sneaker to have the other sneakers EASILY reach their desired targets and take them out NO SWEAT because DESNEAKING that bluesuit happens to be a colossal achievement for any non hawk build.

And 10mm SG IS ENTRY gear as far as PvP means,  I have well around 30 of those guns in my tent and I have dismantled way over 50 now

[Solar]

Johnny, I don't think that's true either. You can use situational bonuses to get decent sneak and use SD on a crit build who hasn't sacrificed his entire perk tree on sneak. A 100% crit first shot into the head could still be useful, especially if its done by a char who won't fold like a piece of paper after the initial attack.

[Solar]

And 10mm SG IS ENTRY gear as far as PvP means,  I have well around 30 of those guns in my tent and I have dismantled way over 50 now

These were gained before I removed them from the easy encounters, I'd expect.

Ok counter case scenario, Your little group with both hawk men and sensor guy suddenly gets hit by a rocket, now theres another group ready to fight and people scramble to look out for the agressors, I think hawk men will have enough on his hands by looking out for the agressors and sensor boy will be busy bursting a nearby sneaker to have the other sneakers EASILY reach their desired targets and take them out NO SWEAT because DESNEAKING that bluesuit happens to be a colossal achievement for any non hawk build.

Now you have added more to just one guy bursting from sneak. Now you have team based tactics, which is exactly what the perks were meant to create!

It gives a reason to form small groups and have different niches and work together, not just in TC or PvP fights, but gathering, crafting, etc.

Ofc, I don't say SD is not OP or it is, I know its too early for these statements.

[JovankaB]

Oh and was johnny pointed it out, add the fact all you need is entry gear to pull it out... TC Influence will be about controlling a ghost town.

You could think people doing TC will be able afford motion sensors.

[Gaizk]

Ok but you still havent answered me, once a fight finally breaks loose, Sensor guy  and Hawk men wont be able to relay everyone the positions of sneakers, actually hawk men will surely be hit first (guy wearing a sniper rifle is an open invitation) and Sensor guy will be real busy by himself. This game is fast paced and the one class that has always benefited from sudden an unexpected moves have been the sneakers, saddly now they are mostly invisible but to a few tools and they can now instantly kill you if you fail to find them.

While not a flawless build indeed, its just too much advantage its just ridiculous, Im ok with a sniper taking a shot from afar and automatically rolling a critical, thats fine with me, because that critical will hardly ever be insta kill, because that critical can be healed and at times even shrugged off completely, and besides snipers have always been more tactical than invisible predator rambos (Right ravenous?)

[Solar]

Well, we are getting into a silly level of detail for a general point now, once we are getting into team dynamics there will always be options. I don't think the central point even in this thread is that SD will dominate team PvP because teams should be able to either use the trick themselves or guard against it.

We were talking about being ambushed by one person without any defence, which is countered pretty easily by having one extra person come along with you.

[Quentin Lang]

Well, if you put it that way, SB still needs a nerf. If the only condition for it to crit is "you must shoot enemy back", then actual PvP would be very awkward. People tend to run forward, shoot, run back, etc. Moving around is constant, so if you just wait for the enemy to turn around and shoot him then you get a crit? Is that so? Well, that's definitely broken. Easy balance would be adding "no combat" status in the conditions, i.e. the perk applies if you shoot enemy's back and you are not in combat. Maybe even have to be sneaking. I haven't tried this perk out yet so I might have misunderstood it's working principles, but if I get it right, this is what I would suggest.

[jodwig]

I know pretty funny way to counter Silent Death

You can choose direction in which you want to look with your char by clicking with Left Mouse Button on him, but it doesn't count for sight and eye shots, so if you turn around, you will have eyes on back, so someone with SD would need to shoot you at face for it to work. I don't know if anyone understood what I meant

[Solar]

Quentin, you must shoot from behind and be in sneak.

[Kelin]

...actually hawk men will surely be hit first (guy wearing a sniper rifle is an open invitation) ...

Why a sniper rifle? It can be almost 300 hp rocket launcher guy with max. perception and toughness. I'd like to see you killing this guy with your sneaker.

[Quentin Lang]

Quentin, you must shoot from behind and be in sneak.

Then I see no problem with this. It's actually a feature, making spotting or motion sensors viable. Spotting sneakers can be an ass sometimes, but with a tweak or two, it might become a nice feature.